Compared to the AI, I'm rich. Why?

Rufus T. Firefly · November 4, 2002, 02:53

I'm new to the game (but not to Civ), and I'm still fooling around trying to get a feel for it. In my current game on Warlord, it's 1500, my Babylonians are a democracy who've just entered the industrial age, and I have ~750 gold. This is way, way more than any of the other civs in the game, though I'm not any bigger than any of them, nor do I have more trade routes. I haven't been hording gold, either; I've been spending the maximum possible gold on science (without running a decifit) at all times. So why do I have so much more money than the AI? Should I be spending it on something? What?

vondrack · November 4, 2002, 03:05

Rufus, such a question can't be answered conveniently without a savegame. There are lots of possible reasons for you to be rich - playing a commercial civ, doing little tech trading, having a small military, having specific gold-mining great wonders... I could continue on and on. Try attaching a savegame and someone will tell you.

Rufus T. Firefly · November 4, 2002, 03:22

Point taken, Vondrack. I'll try from my home computer, later (if my daughter lets me have it

). But what I'm saying is, the AI seems to make it a policy not to have too much money around. It's clearly spending its money on something, and I don't know what.

vondrack · November 4, 2002, 03:35

Most probably tech trading. Also, being already half-way through your game, 750 gold is not unbelievably much, speaking in absolute, not relative numbers. You can spend it very easily on just one or two key techs. Playing on Warlord also helps, since you are granted advantages over the AI players, which indirectly lead to you having more money.

I, too, have noticed that the AI players tend to keep their gold reserves down (sometimes even going broke). My impression (which is most probably only an impression and not actually true) is that often, trying to make a deal for something with an AI player, he will ask for "everything I have". The less I have, the less he will ask for... there still is a threshold I need to break in order to have a chance to make the deal, but once I am over it, the AI player will extort me for whatever I have... but as I've said, it is most likely just my imagination...

vmxa1 · November 4, 2002, 03:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
I have ~750 gold. This is way, way more than any of the other civs in the game, though I'm not any bigger than any of them, nor do I have more trade routes. I haven't been hording gold, either; I've been spending the maximum possible gold on science (without running a decifit) at all times. So why do I have so much more money than the AI? Should I be spending it on something? What?

The Ai will spend most of it income to get unit/structure/research and the like. IOW, it tries to get the max use of the income each turn. You will tend to see the AI with little cash in the first two ages. Humans will tend to have some excess and let it pile up. They are thinking about upgrades and rainy days. The truth is that money needs to be used as it means you are not getting all you might have been able to out of your income.

lateralis · November 4, 2002, 03:41

I have to say it's rare that I don't have at least that much gold at that point in the game. I actually always try to maintain a treasury of over a thousand once I get banks to maximize the wall street small wonder. The AI, for some reason, just can't hold on to money. I always see them having like 56 g to my 10,000 g, but they seem to make a lot of gpt scine they'll trade you 100gpt (if you have a good rep) for a high level tech. sorry, kinda tired, might just be babbling

lateralis

p.s. I usually play on regent/monarch

TacticalGrace · November 4, 2002, 05:38

The AI doesn't have any gold because it's a shoppaholic. It spends what it earns on whatever it can get its grubby little hands on.

maybe you should learn something from the AI. If you think about it what use is gold if you don't spend it? Remember that the cutural impact of temples, libraries etc are higher the earlier that you buy them. So rush buying these might be worth it.

Time is money. So rush buy whenever you can and get the best use out of your gold.

The only spanner in the works is Wall Street. This means that you get a return on the the first 1000 GP in the bank. I therefore aim to keep a war chest of 1000 GP in the industrial age.

bongo · November 4, 2002, 06:11

Tacticalgrace

Good points, too much gold is generally a waste of money.

If my treasury grows too big I usually lower it by running my budget with a decifit for some time. Most of the time I will know in advance when I will be needing those extra gold and start saving up when I need to.

Rufus T. Firefly · November 4, 2002, 06:57

That all makes sense; thanks. One thing I've found is that, as a democracy with a science city, I have a choice of running science at, say, 60% and generating a 30 gpt surplus, or running it at 70% and generating a -10 gpt deficit. My Civ2 instincts are anti-deficit-spending, but I think I may have to hone those for Civ3.

metalhead · November 4, 2002, 11:54

Deficit spending is usually an integral part of my strategy. I usually spend the first age and a half at 90% science. I can usually pile up a decent treasury through trade/barbs/huts, somewhere in the range of 200-500 gold. I continue at 90% science until my treasury all but runs out, which usually happens some time around Gunpowder/Education. On Monarch and Emperor levels, this still isn't enough to stay caught up in tech, but can keep you within striking distance until you can pull ahead for good in the Industrial age.

I figure, the 2 or 3 buildings I can rush with my excess gold will not be as important as the 5-10 turns I can save on researching each tech. The point is, use your gold for something, like the AI does, and don't overlook deficit spending as a way to do it. I like to stay at 90% even when having the GL, and then I race down to Military Tradition ASAP. Even on Emperor, you will probably get to MT first doing this, and can basically destroy the AI at will. If you don't have the GL, racing to MT can allow you to trade for some of the techs you are missing. I think this is the best way to spend that early gold.

jshelr · November 4, 2002, 13:12

Metalhead - 2 cents below

You are trying too hard, IMO.

"On Monarch and Emperor levels, this still isn't enough to stay caught up in tech, but can keep you within striking distance until you can pull ahead for good in the Industrial age."

If you are not caught up, try setting science to zero and buying tech -- not from the leaders -- buy from a civ just behind the leaders. Dirt cheap. You can actually keep up and build a gold supply for an eventual slingshot tech sprint, maybe for the ToE. Also, your money tends to cause the second tier civs to be able to keep up with the leader, making sure you don't finance a tech lead for another civ.

Generally, I only research myself when bee lining for something that AI will not go straight for (to trade the tech for several or to build a wonder) or when I'm able to forge a tech lead.

metalhead · November 4, 2002, 15:02

I've tried it both ways, j. It's probably due more to a personal preference on my part to do my own research, but I like it better that way. I have found that relying on 2nd tier Civs for tech only pushes you back further. I've tried that on Emperor, and it only seems to lead to falling further behind the leader.

A better strategy, I think, is to chase those techs the AI doesn't get with your own research power. The words Printing Press, Espionage, and Radio come to mind. I think you will do much better selling a tech to the AI tech leader, than you will buying a tech from someone who is behind. In fact, you can often trade techs to the most powerful Civ for money, and turn around and buy techs from lesser civs to fill in the tech tree. Getting lots of gpt from the tech leader slows down the overall research speed of ALL AI's, and the more you can get from the tech leaders, the easier time you will have pulling ahead in the industrial age.

lateralis · November 4, 2002, 15:26

Quote:

Originally posted by jshelr
If you are not caught up, try setting science to zero and buying tech -- not from the leaders -- buy from a civ just behind the leaders. Dirt cheap. You can actually keep up and build a gold supply for an eventual slingshot tech sprint, maybe for the ToE. Also, your money tends to cause the second tier civs to be able to keep up with the leader, making sure you don't finance a tech lead for another civ.

Generally, I only research myself when bee lining for something that AI will not go straight for (to trade the tech for several or to build a wonder) or when I'm able to forge a tech lead.

I totally agree with this, I do very little of my own researching until Millitary tradition. Ususally I beeline for GL, run with science on 0% until education and use the surplus money to buy tech parity until Metallurgy, then research Mil. trad. and sell it to my allies. Spending all your money and time on infrastructure that will build up $$ and science (ie market, bank, lib, univ) puts you in a good position to start your own research come steam power and the industrial age. At least, this works for me on regent/monarch. haven't tried emporor or diety yet, still working up to it

.

once I reach this point, I try to sprint for ToE like jsheir says and then trade atomic theory to everyone while holding on to electronics till hoover damn is done. ToE figures strongly in my ability to surge ahead in tech during the industrial age. I will also sell, or even give away tech to civs that are very far behind to keep the game competitive and get people happy with me if I want to keep a diplo victory in my back pocket just in case.

how this relates to money is that by industrial ages, with everything set to 0%, you should be able to turn around 1000 gpt pretty easily. a few turns just to build up money to upgrade old units or buy a key tech seems to me to be a solid stratgy as the AI (again, on regent/monarch) will sometimes get techs in WAY less turns than you. and sell them to you for less total gold than it would have taken you in turns to research it yourself.

also, when using the "buy tech" strategy later in the game, keep an eye on what government the tech leader is in. Once they get into a big war and switch to communism, research will drop like a stone. If you are in demo you can easily pull ahead in tech. I've messed up a few times and started building a huge Gold surplus waiting for the tech leader to finish a tech I've been waiting for and realized at around 10.000 gold that they were busy warring and not researching.

sorry, went a little off topic there, but do with it what you will

lateralis

jshelr · November 4, 2002, 16:02

I don't think we are actually far apart. Metal has a flexible approach, focused on trading, and he doesn't try to research everything himself.

However, I would make the point that a large gold hoard is useful for bribes that will get you out of tough spots. So, I don't worry about a tech lead until Military Tradition at all and I never push too hard on doing my own own research if it leaves me less able to respond diplomatically to militarty emergencies.

lateralis · November 4, 2002, 16:50

I totally agree with that sentiment. Never underestimate the power of money!!! I guess I play an "economic builder" strategy mostly. Having a large surplus makes it very easy to:

1. buy tech when needed
2. rush units for war
3. rush build needed improvements
4. grease the palms of other civs
5. mass upgrade cheaply built units

good stuff

lateralis