You call that an argument?

[kgoodrid]

Alright, I've been holding my tongue for awhile, but I'm getting fed up with some people's attitudes about PTW and Firaxis.

First, I don't understand this explanation for the problems with PTW, which I copied from another thread:

"Well fine complain. But they will fix it. Lets see you try and make a perfect game."

I have seen many people say this. One of you please explain your logic. The whole 'gosh programming is hard thing' is the stupidst argument I have ever seen on a board, after more than a decade of posting.

Yes, programming is hard. My two best friends are programmers and they have to work their asses off. But is that an excuse? Why should we pat people that screw up on the back and say 'gosh they tried their best.' We paid money for a product. It is their JOB to be good at programming and to make good products. If we were going after some amateur, that would be one thing. But this is a game from the most respected and well known man in the business. If he is the best, then we should expect the best.

If a top auto company makes a car, and the wheels fall off, we don't say "Making cars is hard, lets see you do it.' We sue them for screwing up.

Or, for a less extreme example, if a restaurant's food makes you sick, you have the right to complain, get a refund, or not buy their products.

Now, I think PTW has some great stuff in it. I bought it mostly for the SP content, and so far I am pleased, although $30 is a lot for just that. I think some people are overreacting, but the main point I am getting at is that the people who are complaining about the people who are comlaining need to make a better argument. The game has problems and crashes for a lot of people. This is undisputable. As such, the people that are having problems have a right to complain, just as the people who are not having problems have a right to say how much they love the game.

So, please make a better argument when you try to stifle complaints. If you can make a valid argument for why people should not complain, then good for you. Until then, just ignore the threads that are for complaints and stick to the threads that you agree with or enjoy.

Kyle Goodridge
c/MAJ, S-3
Wolverine BN, University of Michigan

[Randolph]

I think a great deal of the "complaining about complaining" has to do with the shear mass of repetitive complaining. The same point doesn't need to be brought up 10+ times.

[alva]

And , this is a fansite

[Tassadar500]

But the point is if you're going to complain then complain. You dont have to make a thread about it. This is a civ fan site not a cive complaint site.

[redstar1]

It might well be a fansite but its also a forum where the developers themselves keep an eye out. I am a big Civ fan but its not perfect. SP has improved considerably since Civ3 was first released but the first version of multiplayer does have some issues. Certainly, criticism is valid but I agree that it does not need to be constantly repeated.

[Random Passerby]

If I remember correctly, the thread that you're quoting there was started by someone suggesting that this in an issue for consumer protection agencies. At the risk of sounding Republican, frankly I don't see that it's any of the government's business if a fool gets parted from his money. If I walk into a used car lot, point at a car at random and say "I'll take that one" and sign all the forms without so much as a glance at any information relevant to the car's condition, I don't have any grounds for complaining if the car's a dud, and were I to sue, any judge who would actually give me anything is a judge the justice system could do without.

If Infogrames and/or Firaxis wants to produce shoddy products, that's their right, by God, and if people want to be stupid enough to make uninformed purchasing decisions, that's their right too. If people want to complain about their own poor consumer habits, that's their right as well--but all the same, I'd wish they'd be a bit more honest about it. Look at the front page:

"We`re aware that the gamespy connection stuff is problematic right now and it`s the focus of our team. We`ve got a list of things that will be fixed in this patch and that along with host slowdowns are on the agenda. So far I haven`t heard of any single player issues, editor or LAN/PBEM/Hotseat issues so right now we`re focused on internet performance....

We`re looking into a list of about 5 major issues related to internet play right now. One new feature of the patch will be a direct connect IP option."

Are these the words of a shady car salesman trying to pass a lemon off? Anyone who read these words and bought the game anyway has very little ground to complain. Anyone who didn't, doesn't have much more ground anyways--it's not like it would have killed you to actually wait a day or two past the announced release date and see how things went.

[yin26]

[For the 'Told You So' files.]

Seasoned gamers, such as myself, decided to wait until the Gold Edition arrives. Don't get me wrong: I am thankful to all the people here who continue to pay to beta test PtW. It reminds me of uncooked cookie dough, really: Getting the cookie early tastes fantastic those first few bites ... until you realize the unfinished version is about to cause you to puke.

I'll wait 'til Civ3 is done cooking, thank you.

Yes, I am a far wiser (and richer) Yin ...

[MarkG]

/me bows at Random Passerby's simple yet cruel common sense logic

[Mahdimael]

Certainly, to some degree, it amounts to "buyer beware" when buying anything.

That said, if what happened in the software industry happened in any other industry, it would almost certainly be criminal. If someone sold you a washing machine that made a lot of noise and lights but didn't actually wash your clothes, you would be justifiably angry. However, because software manufacturers can patch their products, they're given an out- they can release a broken product and just work on it until it's fixed or it's "fixed" (to whatever arbitrary point they feel like fixing them).

I know programming is hard. I do it myself. But there are things that are far, far harder- rocketry, medicine, and so forth. How many rockets or heart surgeries have to be "patched"? Yet there's always a bevy of patches with a current game release- and always the "post-gold,pre-release" patch.

I'm as big a fan of Civ as anyone...as a fan, I should be there to congratulate for the good, and to complain about the bad. I can't be sheeplike and swallow whatever the game company wants me to. And if there are many repeated complaints, that should only indicate the severity of the problem.

I currently play two games- Civ3 and Battlefield 1942- and neither works well via the Internet. Both need to be and should be fixed.

It's up to you to decide what you will do? Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

[MarkG]

Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

noone is asking for silent sheeplike customers.

but the ownership of this site(and the grand majority of it's visitors) DO ask not to have to deal with uncesessary rants which can also be done by opening your window and shouting

opinions backed with arguments, problem reports with their, are all welcome. rants and repetitive whining is not.

[Mahdimael]

Agreed.
The volume of one's argument should never exceed it's logic, reason and validity. Yelling never gets anything done.

Originally posted by MarkG

Quote:

Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

noone is asking for silent sheeplike customers.

but the ownership of this site(and the grand majority of it's visitors) DO ask not to have to deal with uncesessary rants which can also be done by opening your window and shouting

opinions backed with arguments, problem reports with their, are all welcome. rants and repetitive whining is not.

[vmxa1]

I am not going to make any issues with your complaint about the complaints, but can we drop the analogy to cars please?
When they charge 20K for PTW and you can get kill using it if it is faulty, then you can make the comparison. I have seen the car bit quite a few times and it is as silly as the stuff you are mentioning. Many people do not sweat the $30 and will not get a lawyer due to a prercieved problem.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
That said, if what happened in the software industry happened in any other industry, it would almost certainly be criminal. If someone sold you a washing machine that made a lot of noise and lights but didn't actually wash your clothes, you would be justifiably angry. However, because software manufacturers can patch their products, they're given an out- they can release a broken product and just work on it until it's fixed or it's "fixed" (to whatever arbitrary point they feel like fixing them).

Software isn't comparable to a washing machine. Software isn't comparable to a car. Software isn't comparable to a book. Software isn't comparable to a movie. A game like Civ3 will have ~5 million lines of code and ~15 million or more words, and if ANY of those words are misspelled or put in the wrong place in the grammatical structure, there will be a bug. I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

I know programming is hard. I do it myself. But there are things that are far, far harder- rocketry, medicine, and so forth. How many rockets or heart surgeries have to be "patched"? Yet there's always a bevy of patches with a current game release- and always the "post-gold,pre-release" patch.

Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy. The only tricky part is working out *exactly* how much fuel you need, since by adding fuel you add weight. And with that said - LOTS of space missions and heart surgeries fail. Ever hear of the Mars missions? You know, the ones where half the spacecraft malfunctioned? And heart surgery is risky for a reason - they don't always work, and even when they do the doctors frequently have to do follow up surgery, which is directly comparable to a patch. Sorry, your logic is flawed.

I'm as big a fan of Civ as anyone...as a fan, I should be there to congratulate for the good, and to complain about the bad. I can't be sheeplike and swallow whatever the game company wants me to. And if there are many repeated complaints, that should only indicate the severity of the problem.

Sorry, but most of the things people complain about aren't even bugs. Following the loudest complaints is a really stupid idea for finding bugs.

[alva]

I agree with most what you said in your post, but

it's not like it would have killed you to actually wait a day or two past the announced release date and see how things went.

Now, if we all did this.........

[Mahdimael]

Originally posted by Zurai


Software isn't comparable to a washing machine. Software isn't comparable to a car. Software isn't comparable to a book. Software isn't comparable to a movie. A game like Civ3 will have ~5 million lines of code and ~15 million or more words, and if ANY of those words are misspelled or put in the wrong place in the grammatical structure, there will be a bug. I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

You're right in saying that it's impossible for code to be perfect from the get go. If you've ever worked in the software industry, though, you know that part of the design process is revision. You revise something until it works before you release it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen these days for whatever reason.

Software is analagous to every product that's for sale in this way: A company or person creates a product that boasts certain features, and the person purchases that product due to those claims. The results are certainly more serious if your car doesn't have working brakes or whatever, but when a person buys a product, they expect (rightfully) that the features claimed will be there.

Originally posted by Zurai
Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy. The only tricky part is working out *exactly* how much fuel you need, since by adding fuel you add weight. And with that said - LOTS of space missions and heart surgeries fail. Ever hear of the Mars missions? You know, the ones where half the spacecraft malfunctioned? And heart surgery is risky for a reason - they don't always work, and even when they do the doctors frequently have to do follow up surgery, which is directly comparable to a patch. Sorry, your logic is flawed.

Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?

Originally posted by Zurai
Sorry, but most of the things people complain about aren't even bugs. Following the loudest complaints is a really stupid idea for finding bugs.

Loudest isn't the key- numerous is. If 100 or 1000 people complain that multiplayer in a game doesn't work, or that their car's clutch works improperly, then that should indicate a problem. When the things being complained about are key features of a product, that should indicate a serious problem.

[kgoodrid]

Originally posted by Zurai


I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

Cripes, this was JUST what my original post was about!!

This is such a ridiculous excuse! Again, writing strong code is their JOB!!! That is what they get paid for. How many good authors have common spelling mistakes in their numerous novels? Not many. Teams of people code, but a single author writes a book with a couple editors checking it over.

Again, I challange you to make a VALID argument for why people should not be allowed to complain. As I said, some people are a bit out of line. But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all. You can't claim that a site is a comprehensive look at a subject unless it talks about all aspects of that subject, good and bad.

Originally posted by Random Passerby

If I walk into a used car lot, point at a car at random and say "I'll take that one" and sign all the forms without so much as a glance at any information relevant to the car's condition, I don't have any grounds for complaining if the car's a dud, and were I to sue, any judge who would actually give me anything is a judge the justice system could do without.

This is a poorly constructed argument. You are saying that people should inform themselves about products, but that they shouldn't complain when those products are messed up. How exactly do you expect people to inform themselves about a product if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems? If people cannot post about problems with a game, then there is no way for others to make the informed choice that you demand. I waited a few days to buy PTW so that I could read up on it, and I almost didn't buy it based on the problems I heard about.

Again, I agree that anyone complaining has to be careful to back up their arguments. I like PTW, and I'll like it even more when the outstanding issues get resolved. However, too many people that are making perfectly valid complaints are being shouted down by the 'Firaxis can do no wrong' crowd.

If you don't want to hear about the problems anymore, then don't read the posts about problems. Its that simple. Let those of us who want to talk about them talk about them, for our own benefit and the benefit of people that may be deciding whether they want to buy. They can compare what we say with what the fanboys say.

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by kgoodrid

If you don't want to hear about the problems anymore, then don't read the posts about problems. Its that simple. Let those of us who want to talk about them talk about them, for our own benefit and the benefit of people that may be deciding whether they want to buy. They can compare what we say with what the fanboys say.

You do realize that tolerance of this sort is a two-way proposition, correct? In addition, you initiated this thread, and stated your opinions in unequivocal terms. Aren't people permitted to take you task on those opinions if they disagree with some of the finer points of your argument? If you agree that they are, then why devote so much energy rebuking them for it? After all, as the old saying goes, "you asked for it", right?

My only "complaint", as it were, against those who devote so much of their time and energy in criticizing this game, and those who like, is why would anyone devote themselves so ardently to something that they're not deriving any joy from? I mean, if you loathe this game so much, why waste your time with it?

Now don't get wrong, Kgoodrid. I'm not necessarily directing this argument at you, but rather the entire body of people here who have spent countless hours, weeks, and months negatively obsessing over what amounts to a child's toy...a mere video game.

If modern psychology teaches us anything, it is that such obsessions with "joyless" endeavors is usually a symptom of much deeper emotional problems. Put simply, people who pursue things that they consciously find anathema usually do so out of some deep-rooted sense of self-hatred and loathing.

Again, if this product is so awful, and creates nothing but feelings of anger, and a sense of feeling "ripped-off", then why not seek a refund and be rid of the headache? After all, what healthy person who possesses a modicum of self-love would want to subject themselves to such gut-wrenching torment?

[Switch]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?

Actually, it does. Do you ever hear people getting excited over a new dishwasher that's about to be released? No, because nobody knows about the dishwasher until it's released usually. Or with new rockets, we may know about it for years before it's finished, but with science-related things people realize that it takes time to make a product good. And, again, there isn't the incredible hysteria you get with an upcoming game.

So, gamers want the game NOW! To please the community, and to keep it sustained and not letting it die, the developers have to go quickly developing the game. Mistakes get made, and there isn't time to fix them. They have deadlines to meet, and if they're missed people get mad. If a dealine is missed for building a rocket you just fire a guy or two.

So, in other words there is no relation. You could only relate computergame production to something that has a similar market and expected release dates are released publicly.

Give the designers a brake. It IS partly our fault that games have so many bugs these days.

[alva]

And , this is a fansite

But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all.

Why I said fansite is, that most people here, will defend Firaxis over Infogrames. Probably some David and Goliath thing .

You are off-course right about the warts and all

[Zurai]

Originally posted by kgoodrid

This is such a ridiculous excuse! Again, writing strong code is their JOB!!! That is what they get paid for. How many good authors have common spelling mistakes in their numerous novels? Not many. Teams of people code, but a single author writes a book with a couple editors checking it over.

Civ3 IS strong code. And about your authors comment: I suggest you pick up any popular novel and actually go through, counting spelling and grammar mistakes. You'll find a LOT more than you expect. I once counted 23 spelling errors and quite a few odd grammatical structures in a ~400 page book. That's between 50,000 and 100,000 words. If you mutliply the 23:100,000 ratio to 15 million words (theoretical number for Civ3), you get about 3500 bugs. In reality, it's not reasonable to use a linear scale.

As for your "teams of people code" - not always. I know of a game (Darkspace, www.darkspace.net) that was coded entirely by *one* person, with over 1 million lines of code. Even when teams of people DO work together to code - ever heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the soup"? That's what happens when there's a lot of people working on different parts of a game. When one person programs, he's able to insure that all parts of the game are 100% compatible from the get-go. When 100 people code, that simply isn't going to happen. 100 people will have 100 different approaches to the same piece of code.

Again, I challange you to make a VALID argument for why people should not be allowed to complain. As I said, some people are a bit out of line. But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all. You can't claim that a site is a comprehensive look at a subject unless it talks about all aspects of that subject, good and bad.

I never said you shouldn't complain. I said that you should know what the hell you're talking about before you complain. Having a game perfectly 100% bugfree is impossible. Hell, making a "Hello World" program is impossible to make bugfree unless you write it in assembly - and then it'll only work on a VERY narrow range of machines. Why? Because the compilers themselves introduce some bugs. Oh, and don't suggest writing games in Assembly, either - it takes easily 10 times as much time and effort, and is much, much, MUCH harder than using a high-level language like C or C++.

As I said in another thread, it's perfectly reasonable to complain about gamebreaking bugs, like if the game crashes constantly at a certain point. It's reasonable to *point out* minor bugs like a glitchy animation so that the programmers can get it fixed. It's not valid to trash the developers simply because you want them to do the impossible - release a game with NO bugs.

In all actuality, the devs do NOT want to release a game with noticable bugs. 95% of the blame falls on publishers that force the products out of the door before they've been through extensive QA and re-QA sessions. The reason the publishers push games out early is because fans demand their games NOW and will pay for the game before it's even gold. It's the industry itself that should get the complaints for a (single) extremely buggy release. Only if a developer has a history of quite a few extremely buggy releases, independant of publishers, should the developer get the lion's share of the blame.

[Zurai]

Double post

[Mahdimael]

I don't disagree with you about whose fault it is. The publishers are mostly to blame, in my opinion. They need to get games out before the quarter/holidays and tell the developers to get it done. Public demand, too, helps rush games out. What irks me is that nowhere along the line, someone says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly". Then the game is released prematurely and everyone is surprised when there are complaints and the reputation of the companies involved decrease.

At some point, it's going to be too much. Already, there's been backlash against CD copy protection, and if people get tired of being constantly jacked when they buy a game, there will be a backlash against buggy software as well.

Originally posted by Switch
Actually, it does. Do you ever hear people getting excited over a new dishwasher that's about to be released? No, because nobody knows about the dishwasher until it's released usually. Or with new rockets, we may know about it for years before it's finished, but with science-related things people realize that it takes time to make a product good. And, again, there isn't the incredible hysteria you get with an upcoming game.

So, gamers want the game NOW! To please the community, and to keep it sustained and not letting it die, the developers have to go quickly developing the game. Mistakes get made, and there isn't time to fix them. They have deadlines to meet, and if they're missed people get mad. If a dealine is missed for building a rocket you just fire a guy or two.

So, in other words there is no relation. You could only relate computergame production to something that has a similar market and expected release dates are released publicly.

Give the designers a brake. It IS partly our fault that games have so many bugs these days.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
What irks me is that nowhere along the line, someone says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly".

Actually happens all the time. The developer says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly", the publisher says "We paid you, ship it or talk to our lawyers". Small developers don't have a lot of choice.

[[FX]Roman]

Originally posted by alva848
And , this is a fansite

Yes, this is a fansite... Not a fanboi site. Llama.

[Random Passerby]

First off, Firaxis is not a pack of bloodthirsty marauders against which consumers must band together to protect their wallets from; a quick glance at the news posts here at Apolyton (easily accessible via search engine within a minute and a half of searching) will tell you about everything you need to know, straight from Firaxis (well, almost straight, anyhow), within a week of the game having gone gold, let alone having reached store shelves. The game designers came out and said "We're working on it, especially on this issue and this and this" before the projected retail date. If you'd rather base your purchasing call on seeing "WTF is this crap?!! firaxis blows dude (angry face x10)" than the developers' honest admissions, that's your prerogative, but I think P.T. Barnum might have a thing or two to say about you.

Secondly, never have I said that people couldn't complain. Exactly the opposite, in fact. I merely wish that they'd make more sensible complaints. And, for that matter, I don't care so much about those either, but when people start talking about fraud and criminal repercussions it just sickens me. Suppose you buy PTW--you hand your thirty bucks to the software store, go home, try to get the net play working, and quit in disgust. You go back to the software store, return PTW for store credit, spend thirty bucks on something you'd find more enjoyable. At this instant, Firaxis' net financial obligation to you comes to a grand total of $0. You cannot in good conscience hold them responsible for anything more. That doesn't mean that it's inconcievable that you might get some judge to award you punitive damages, but in that case you're guilty of perpetrating a far, far worse evil than anything Firaxis has ever done.

[Nubclear]

I said that you should know what the hell you're talking about before you complain.

If I had a penny for every time EITHER side gave that statement......

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Nuclear Master
But the point is if you're going to complain then complain. You dont have to make a thread about it. This is a civ fan site not a cive complaint site.

So what you're saying is you're fan and you'll put up with being treated like dirt.

[MarkG]

if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems?

do you see here people not being allowed to speak?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MarkG

Quote:

if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems?

do you see here people not being allowed to speak?

My thread about defective products and consumer rights was closed

Even though Civ III PTW probably breaches Section 52, misleading and deceptive conduct, and Section 53, misrepresentation, of the Australian Trade Practices Act.

Oh dear - very heavy penalties for that. I guess Firaxis and Infogames like to live dangerously

Oh and I've already alerted my friends in the Australian Consumer and Competition Commission about this product so no need to reopen my thread Mark

[MarkG]

you have no consumer rights horsie when you havent bought the product