You call that an argument?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MarkG
in the technology backwards (compared to US and the most of Europe) Greece, the minister of edcuation announced today that 100% of highschools and 46% of elementary schools have internet access.
so please lets give the "not everyone has net access" argument a rest
dont force me to find the US-homes-with-net-access percentage...

Is there a label on the box when you buy the game: "You need Internet Access to make this game fully enjoyable"?

How many play CIV3 at school? Can they burn a CD at school to get the patch to their home computer? (The patches are normally too big for a floppy disk). I have Internet at my job but have to contact the very busy IT support to burn CDs. And they are by corporate policy not allowed to help me with such issues.

As I wrote earlier, this is not a problem for most of us, as we download the patches as soon as they come. But we are fanatics. I believe that a majority of the gamers are not as eager as we. If the game is crappy out of the box, they simply put it away in dissapointment and move on to the next game. My sister did that, and she was even more fanatic about CIV2 than I was.


I still maintain my point: It is arrogant of the software publishers to presume that their customer would be happy to get a semi-finished product... Like if all copies of the first hardback edition of a bestseller novel would have some missing pages that you could download from the publisher's web later.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
Is there a label on the box when you buy the game: "You need Internet Access to make this game fully enjoyable"?

or a "you need internet to play internet game" label??

How many play CIV3 at school? Can they burn a CD at school to get the patch to their home computer?

i'm just giving these as an example for the percentage of people having on way or the other net access

I still maintain my point: It is arrogant of the software publishers to presume that their customer would be happy to get a semi-finished product...

easy industry has it's own rules and standards
do you see people daily rant on forums about a movie for 6 months?

[Dave0]

I think this is one of the reasons warez is so popular. A lot of people don't trust game developers any more. Produce a quality product and in most cases the people who download them will buy the game. I have been waiting years for Team Fortress 2 to be made (probably never will be made) but atleast they didn't release some stinking pile of crap. I will gladly wait until developers FINISH a product. A game should never need more than 2 patches, and should never need any patches just to get what was advertised working out of the box. And to the person who was talking about coding and spelling mistakes, well, hopefully they tested the product. You seem to think they code it and then just release it without working out the major bugs. And I think the lag and unplayability (for most of us) is a major bug right now. Just my opinion.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MarkG
or a "you need internet to play internet game" label??

Duh! Or a LAN to play LAN games. Or a chair to play hotseat games... My comment is valid for offline games too, since they also need patches.

do you see people daily rant on forums about a movie for 6 months?

This computer game is much bigger than a movie. It will fill your life. The effective time you spend on one single game of Civilization equals perhaps 15 movies. If the game does not fulfill peoples expectations, they get upset.

I have mostly written good things about CIV3 ever since I got it. I probably will about PtW too. I just joined this debate since it arised, and I'm supporting the consumer's side.

But let's not get too hotheaded here. This is probably my last post in this particular thread, as I have already said what I wanted to express.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
And I'm sure many people buy PtW just to get the new tribes and units.

As far as I know, nobody has complained about these.


ACK!

[Akka]

THIS IS NOT A CAR!!! ITS A GAME!!! IT COSTS $50!!!

Ok. Let's do it with a book. It's even much less than 50 $. Do you expect to sell a book with 15 % pages missing ?

If this is your biggest worry in the world then I wish I had your life. I'm not a sheep that'll buy anything, I only have one game on my PC, and thats CIV3 and now the expansion because I like them.

You people are making such a big deal out of nothing...

I don't see the point of this overused "if it's your biggest problem...".
No it's not my biggest problem. In fact, as I did not bought PTW (borrowed it only), it's not even a problem.
It's a question of PRINCIPLE. I find it not acceptable that the software industry is showing such a lack of respect for its customers, and pityfully disgusting that so many of these consumers just follow as sheeps and accept it.

A finished product that will be no better than what I'll have on my computer at that time.

Well, you seem to don't understand the concept of "question of principle".
Though, I'm ready to bet that a game is much more polished when it's developped rather than when it's being patched. Patches have some restrictions about compatibility with previous versions and size that are not present if you finish the work before releasing.

Guess why? There aren't 10,000 possible hardware configurations you have to code for on consoles or ancient computers. Even with that, I've never played a game, ever, that didn't have bugs. Even Nethack has bugs.

Console games are a completely different animal. They are developed to be highly platform-specific, and the SDKs that the developers use are provided by the console manufacturers. It's awfully hard to mess these up, although I have (albeit rarely) seen it happen.

I love it when people just don't read what it is said and ridiculize themselves.
The answer to these posts was already made BEFORE you posted. Next time, you would better to read entirely before answering
As it seems you would perhaps have some trouble to find it, here was the said answer :

That's precisely to avoid this pityful excuse that I talked also about the PC games prior to 1994.
There was even MORE diversity in the computer in this time (several DOS versions, OS/2, Win 3.11 and so on), there was countless sound cards and video cards that each one required a special tweak of the programming (Windows now handle most of it), but STILL, the games were not as buggy as they are now by far.
Why ?
Because Internet was not widely usable, and then it was not possible to sell unfinished products and patch them later.
Notice that there is still some games that happen to be released without too much bugs, so it's not like if it suddendly became impossible by the wish of God.

But why try to get rid of the bugs when you have a huge sheep herd that will buy anything that is thrown at them and dutyfully swallow anything while waiting for the patch ?

Games that need patching because of hard to find mistakes only discovered after release is one thing. Games released with major problems that are known about or should have been found by straightforward testing is just unacceptable. If publishers could be held liable for rushing out code the developer has told them is faulty the games industry would have a lot less of those sort of fiascos.

Well said, and I wholefully agree.

[Jaguar]

Good things about PTW:[list=1][*]There is a leaderhead that looks like Queen Isabella.[*]It is named Isabella too![*]She moves[*]She wears an ancient age outfit in the ancient age[*]She wears a medieval/rennaisance outfit in the medieval/rennaisance age[*]She wears an industrial age outfit in the industrial age[*]She wears a modern outfit in the modern age[*]The words that she says make sense[*]Isabella was Spanish, and so is the leaderhead![*]There is a leaderhead that looks like Ghengis Khan.[*]It is named Genghis Kahn too![*]He moves[*]He wears an ancient age outfit in the ancient age[*]He wears a medieval/rennaisance outfit in the medieval/rennaisance age[*]He wears an industrial age outfit in the industrial age[*]He wears a modern outfit in the modern age[*]The words that he says make sense[*]Genghis Khan was Mongol, and so is the leaderhead![*]Neither of these two leaderheads pop up when you contact the Arabs.[*]This is realistic![/list=1]
Need I continue? I could come up with Jaguar Warrior's 7500 theses on why PTW is good from the leaderheads alone, but I don't want to bore anyone with it. I could additionally post it in every complaint thread, and every thread that involves the leaderheads, but I don't.

[vmxa1]

DaveO, you sure the reason warez is popular has nothing to due with the fact that it is free and they do not have to even make a trip to the store? I mean they use it regardless of the products quality.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil


Ok. Let's do it with a book. It's even much less than 50 $. Do you expect to sell a book with 15 % pages missing ?

Except there are no pages missing from PTW. There's a number of typos, yes, but there are no missing pages. That's what I'm trying to get across - all a bug is, 95% of the time, is a typo or grammatical error.

There was even MORE diversity in the computer in this time (several DOS versions, OS/2, Win 3.11 and so on), there was countless sound cards and video cards that each one required a special tweak of the programming (Windows now handle most of it), but STILL, the games were not as buggy as they are now by far.

Uh, no. There's never been more diversity in the computer arena than there is now. There are somewhere in the vicinity of 30-40 different name brand video cards, another dozen name brand sound cards, 4 or 5 different processors, hundreds of CD and DVD drives, and 5 vastly different Windows OS's still in use. Each of those different cards, processors, and drives handles things slightly differently, and the OS's handle things *very* differently. And I note you didn't say anything about consoles - at least you admit, if only by omission, that you were wrong there.

Notice that there is still some games that happen to be released without too much bugs, so it's not like if it suddendly became impossible by the wish of God.

I'll bet you that 80% of the mostly bug-free launches are games that were given the most time by the publisher (Generally indy games, Blizzard games since they basically publish themselves, and Strategy First). Games that are shipped on a hard deadline (Like PTW, I would bet) tend to be much, much buggier simply because they havn't had enough time to go through the multiple QA checks that need to be done. This is almost entirely the fault of the publisher, and I agree with you that it's a very bad thing. The video game industry right now is a very, very rough place to be, because for all intents and purposes the publishers are God. High-quality games tend to cost too much money for developers to bankroll the projects themselves, which puts them at the mercy of the huge, predatory publishing companies. It's a sucky situation for everyone but the publishers. Thankfully there are some good publishers - Strategy First tends to be pretty good about giving its developers time - and there's growing resentment towards the big publishers that will hopefully translate into better business practices soon.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

I love it when people just don't read what it is said and ridiculize themselves.
The answer to these posts was already made BEFORE you posted. Next time, you would better to read entirely before answering
As it seems you would perhaps have some trouble to find it, here was the said answer :


Well said, and I wholefully agree.

So sue me for not reading every post. BTW, is "ridiculize" a word? Just kidding of course.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Zurai
I'll bet you that 80% of the mostly bug-free launches are games that were given the most time by the publisher

Not PoR2, that's for sure. What a POS. They worked on it for 3+ years and it was arguably the biggest flop and disappointment for PC S/W gaming ever. But I get your point.

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Traelin


So sue me for not reading every post. BTW, is "ridiculize" a word? Just kidding of course.

LMAO!! "Rediculize".

I almost wish that was a word. I'd love to be able to use that word in a conversation with a straight face.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by vmxa1
DaveO, you sure the reason warez is popular has nothing to due with the fact that it is free and they do not have to even make a trip to the store? I mean they use it regardless of the products quality.

Thats not always true. Some people respect hard work and a good quality game. For example with Champ Manager 4, theyve delayed that game on purpose because they personally want to get it right 'out of the box' and constantly take feedback for the new game. I think some people will go out and buy it and of course some idiots will download it, but far less im sure already. Mostly due to the fact the way Sports Interactive (maker of CM4) do business. Theyre just a smallish UK based company started by 2 brothers bedroom coding, and people who visit the SI forums know how much they care about getting it right.

Not all people just rip a game they want, although the same people will download a game if the publisher clearly doesnt give a **** about releasing it early, just to squeeze the consumer's "early buck", and therefore i wont give a **** either.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by MarkG
come on, you even have DSL in the UK! here, we're just dreaming it

Many major urban areas have DSL, if you're prepared to pay the equivalent of a full price game per month for it. Rural and declining areas are another story. All the effort is going into getting mobile phone masts installed everywhere.

[notyoueither]

All this 'release a quality product and they will buy' is just... horse feathers.

Software theft and piracy are widespread, even for finished and useful products. Even products that people use to make money with.

&^%$*& I didn't make enough money! I am right to steal the tools I use to make the money I do! &*^%*&*$ software industry theiving ^&%$##*(&^%!

What tripe!

The fact is that stealing software is widespread, AND accepted by far too many. That is why it happens as much as it does. To think that the 'perfect' game will result in less piracy is ludicrous. In fact, it would result in more...

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Maquiladora


Thats not always true. Some people respect hard work and a good quality game. For example with Champ Manager 4, theyve delayed that game on purpose because they personally want to get it right 'out of the box' and constantly take feedback for the new game. I think some people will go out and buy it and of course some idiots will download it, but far less im sure already. Mostly due to the fact the way Sports Interactive (maker of CM4) do business. Theyre just a smallish UK based company started by 2 brothers bedroom coding, and people who visit the SI forums know how much they care about getting it right.

Not all people just rip a game they want, although the same people will download a game if the publisher clearly doesnt give a **** about releasing it early, just to squeeze the consumer's "early buck", and therefore i wont give a **** either.

I do not see the reference in my post that would lead you to think I thought all were involved. Of course it is not all, I have no idea what the numbers are, but I would expect it is very high. In my last office every one was making copies of games and software tools. I mean I know of dozens on the one floor alone. I do not know if that is representive of the rest of the world or not, but it is not insignificant.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The fact is that stealing software is widespread, AND accepted by far too many. That is why it happens as much as it does. To think that the 'perfect' game will result in less piracy is ludicrous. In fact, it would result in more...

I’m no programming expert or anything, but I’ll bet what *would* reduce the level of piracy is if a "certain government agency" was to covertly distribute warez versions that, when downloaded and installed, would unleash a bug that would attack the user's BIOS, thus "neutralizing" the offending machine. This might make people a bit more hesitant to use unregulated products....

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Barchan


I’m no programming expert or anything, but I’ll bet what *would* reduce the level of piracy is if a "certain government agency" was to covertly distribute warez versions that, when downloaded and installed, would unleash a bug that would attack the user's BIOS, thus "neutralizing" the offending machine. This might make people a bit more hesitant to use unregulated products....

That would also be a crime, so I would hope that no 'government', or other agency ever does it.

Better would be a 'beacon' that would alert some 'authority' to its presense and use.

Go round up 500 of the thieves and put them at the mercy of the courts. Invite the press. That might have an effect.

Oh wait. Microsoft has instituted the beacon... only a matter of time now...

[gsmoove23]

Barchan, I think before we have government agencies intentionally planting viruses on the internet software and media industries should be forced to take a serious think about adapting to a new world. Eventually they will find a way to harness these new developments and profit from them to be sure. They have the money and the brainpower and those who don't adapt I suspect will go the way of the dinosaur.

I love the people who get on here and say "I hate to read all these posts supporting/attacking PTW!". Please, everybody knows you love a good flame war or you wouldn't be posting here.

P.S. Widespread internet access does not equal widespread internet knowledge or use. Many intelligent people I know love the idea of multiplay but still are afraid to download anything because they think it'll screw up their computers. Others get the game to play with friends but wouldn't know how to find a forum or even care to, much less search for patches or mods. Some people have modem access, only play PBEM, can't stay on the line too long cause it ties up their phone...

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by notyoueither
All this 'release a quality product and they will buy' is just... horse feathers.

Software theft and piracy are widespread, even for finished and useful products. Even products that people use to make money with.

&^%$*& I didn't make enough money! I am right to steal the tools I use to make the money I do! &*^%*&*$ software industry theiving ^&%$##*(&^%!

What tripe!

The fact is that stealing software is widespread, AND accepted by far too many. That is why it happens as much as it does. To think that the 'perfect' game will result in less piracy is ludicrous. In fact, it would result in more...

Yes, people are people and some wont change their ways whatever the quality of the product. All the bad karma surrounding PTW MP abilities so far hasnt helped some people around here in convincing them to buy it.

If it was perfect out of the box some of those unsure would go and buy it before it even hits the P2P networks, of course im not denying people would still wait and download it but this waiting time for the patch and promises to fix MP issues is not helping.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
If it was perfect out of the box some of those unsure would go and buy it before it even hits the P2P networks, of course im not denying people would still wait and download it but this waiting time for the patch and promises to fix MP issues is not helping.

It hit the P2P networks before it hit the shelves. Thus I don't understand that argument-that people downloaded it only because it was a buggy release-since they were downloading it before the release.

[ThaddeusAlexander]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Ok. Let's do it with a book. It's even much less than 50 $. Do you expect to sell a book with 15 % pages missing ?
[/q]

An apple is an apple, and a horse is a horse, and a book is a book and a computer game is a computer game. stop trying to weed around this ...

And if i got the rest of the 15% later on then sure why not?

It's a question of PRINCIPLE. I find it not acceptable that the software industry is showing such a lack of respect for its customers, and pityfully disgusting that so many of these consumers just follow as sheeps and accept it.

I see it that they want to get out a product that we've all wanted FAST because they know we want it. They worked hard to get it out as soon as they did i'm sure, because THEY'RE DOING WHAT WE WANTED! multiplayer and more civs and tweaks and features... they're just DOING WHAT WE ASKED!

So I DO NOT get this LACK OF RESPECT argument at all ...

Well, you seem to don't understand the concept of "question of principle".

I do, but this isn't life and death.

Chill out!

Cheers everyone...
~Thadalex

[ThaddeusAlexander]

EDIT double post ..

[Maquiladora]

I didnt say all people. Its true of some people, they wait for reactions to the game before they decide to pay money for it or not. And i dont think those same people would download it just because its there. Perhaps an insignificant number of people for infogrames to care about.

They (infogrames) think all people who download their software do it because they dont want to pay for a solid and fully tested product, but thats exactly why people are downloading PTW.

[Grumbold]

Some online games are starting to attack the piracy problem by requiring a registration number for online play. I bet it won't be too long before other companies start requiring authentication for patches. Then it won't be too far a step before we'll have games that are intentionally bugged or disabled on release to require that everyone gets authenticated.....

(well that's my conspiracy theory for the week )

[Maquiladora]

There could only be one instance of a WONid online at one time playing counter-strike, team fortress and any HL mod, so no one gave their reg keys away. I thought that was a pretty good idea. AFAIK it still works now, because there isnt any pattern to how the WONid (needed to join servers) is generated from the reg key you get with half-life or counter-strike commercial release.

[metalhead]

This whole argument is ridiculous. For anyone complaining that publishers' hard deadlines lead to bad releases, I will point out to you a company called The Logic Factory. They are a small, independant game company that has released 2 games in a span of 7 years. They have been promising a sequel to one of the best games ever, Ascendancy, for over 3 years now. Instead of getting a slightly rushed, buggy release a year or 2 ago, we have gotten nothing, with no anticipation of ever getting anything. I'm sure this is not the only example of such a situation.

The point of this example is that you can't have it both ways. Many people want their product quickly, and can put up with initial bugs and wait for patches. Others want the game company to take their time, fix all of the bugs, and release a finished product that requires no patching. If you don't have a big publisher pushing a release time, you tick off all the impatient people, like me, who just want a new toy to play around with, even if it isn't perfect. If you are pushed by dollar concerns, you often end up with an incomplete or non-functional game, and you tick off all of the people who expect a completely finished product.

The overall point is STOP WHINING ALREADY! So you didn't get what you wanted, who cares? Nobody gets what they want; it's a fact of life. If you aren't satisfied with a less than finished product being released, it's your own stupid fault for not researching the product before buying. It's NOT the game manufacturer's or programmers fault for releaseing the product, it's YOUR fault for buying it.

On piracy, I think software pirates are thieves who deserve to be prosecuted. However, don't believe for a second that it is widespread. If piracy were widespread, gaming companies would be losing profit, and would do something about it, up to and including enlisting the help of the government. Since that has yet to happen, at least in the gaming industry, it is safe to assume that it isn't a huge phenomenon. Please do not assume that I am condoning piracy - just making an observation about it. I think habitual software pirates are despicably selfish, lazy people who probably spend their whole lives rationalizing their actions to themselves and others to explain away their selfishness/laziness.

[yin26]

I routinely borrow (yes, really) or download a game to evaluate it. If it's as buggy and incomplete as Civ3 was and continues to be, I give back / delete the game and wait or forget the title entirely. In the case of Civ3, however, I think that by Gold Edition time, there might be a game worth $30.

And I have no qualms using Warez to evaluate a title ... given the current state of release and maybe patch.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by notyoueither That would also be a crime, so I would hope that no 'government', or other agency ever does it.

Crimes are defined by laws created by the state. So long as the state exempts itself from its laws, it's not a crime.

But, really, I was only making a bit of a tongue-in-cheek remark. A "modest proposal", if you will. Still, there's something to be said for the deterrent power of draconian punishments. There's a lot less shoplifting in countries where doing so will cost you a hand. Also, there are very, very few repeat offenders. Software piracy, at least on an individual level, is fairly widespread because there’s little risk of any adverse consequences. Perhaps if there were greater consequences for using illegal pirated software, fewer people would do so.

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by metalhead
This whole argument is ridiculous
...........
I think habitual software pirates are despicably selfish, lazy people who probably spend their whole lives rationalizing their actions to themselves and others to explain away their selfishness/laziness.

I don't want to double post his entire post in a reply with quote, i'm sure you can scroll up and read it , but i just wanted to second EVERYTHING metalhead posted.

Well said.

Cheers
~Thadalex