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Old November 5, 2002, 18:57   #1
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The Court of Apolytonia is in Session: Case 5
DO NOT POST REPLIES!
before reading this opening post


Rules of the Court

1. No one will post any message within this thread until invited explicitly by the Senior Justice, or as allowed by these rules.
2. The case will begin with the Complainant or their representative being invited to post. He or she may then take as many posts as are required to present their case. The Complainant would be advised not to go on indefinitely and to be respectful of the court's time.
3. The Complainant will expilicitly state when they are finished.
4. The Senior Justice will then invite the Respondent or their representative to post.
5. The Respondent may begin by asking the court to dismiss the case. If such motion is made, the Senior Justice will communicate with the other justices. Once 3 justices have agreed, the Senior Justice (or another appointed by him or her) will post that decision. Assuming the case continues...
6. The Respondent will be invited to post their defence. The Respondent will follow the same guidelines as the Complainant.
7. The Respondent will explicitly state when they are finished.
8. At the conclusion of the Respondents case the Complainant will be invited to rebut their arguments. The Complainant will state when they are finished.
9. The Respondent will always be given the last word, so after the Complainant is finished rebuttal, the Respondent will be invited to reply to what the Complainant has said in rebuttal. The Respondent will state when they are finished.

10. The cases are finished.
11. Justices may now freely ask questions of the Complainant and the Respondent. Members of the public may request to be heard. Any such hearing granted to the public must be invited by the Senior Justice or by a direct question addressed to them by any justice.
12. Any member of the public may request being heard by PM to the Senior Justice, or by a simple statement of 'May I be heard?' within the thread. Do not be surprised if the Senior Justice requires you to PM him with your concern before allowing you to post in the thread.

* No one will post in the thread prior to being invited by the Senior Justice or as explicitly allowed within these rules. In other words, other justices and those directly addressed by them may respond without invitation at appropriate times.
* The Senior Justice may interrupt at any time to make a point of order. All persons with no exceptions will respect his or her orders.
* The Complainant and the Respondent may ask permission to make motions during any point of the proceedings after the Senior Justice establishes the thread. Such motions will be preceded by the moving party posting 'Motion'. At that point others will stop posting. The Senior Justice will recognize the party and the motion will be made. The Senior Justice will rule and will invite any parties interrupted to resume.
* The Senior Justice may appoint any other justice to stand in his or her stead if an absence requires it. That justice will be the Senior Justice from that point until the original Senior Justice returns.
* The Senior Justice is the law and the only law within this thread and under the gOdz. He or she may make any relevant decision at any time in accord with our established rules and laws. All people without exception will respect his or her decisions and the order of this court.

This court will be in session until declared closed by the Senior Justice.
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:00   #2
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The Case
Complainant: Mr. Orange
Respondent: Reddawg
Other Persons of Standing: jdjdjd representing the Respondent
Status: Being Heard
Senior Justice: notyoueither assisted by Sheik
Justices Attending: kring, Kramerman, Nimitz, notyoueither, Sheik

---

The Issue:

Mr. Orange complains
Quote:
I, Mr. Orange hereby submit a formal complaint against Reddawg on October 21st, 2002 to the Court of Apolytonia.

I am seeking redress for libel and slander on 15-10-2002 18:36 in the thread Apolytonia Defense Review (580 – Vol. I) under Amendment IV: Bill of Rights; Clause 3, Clause 6 and Clause 7 of the Code of Laws or Article IV. Citizens; 5), 8) and 9) of the New Constitution, depending ratification by the citizens of Apolytonia.

It is in my belief that within the context of the textual messages contained within said thread, that I, Mr. Orange endured vicious attacks upon my character by a sitting Minister within our government Reddawg that are irreversible within the Apolyton C3DG community at large.

Without submitting any facts that either the MilCalc or my compiled statistics violated the “rules of the game”, Reddawg made the accusation I cheated to obtain the statistical information I supplied within the thread. However, in said thread, prior information (Exhibit A) and the MilCalc itself, I stated the statistics were estimates, based on speculative numbers created through hard data from the game with the MilCalc (Exhibit B). As a sitting member of the government, Reddawg violated Clause 7 or 9) and gave false information to the citizens of Apolytonia about my character and my statistical production. From this accusation, Reddawg also violated Clause 6 or 8) in the form of verbal condemnation suggesting I should discontinue my publication without any due process from the law, which subsequently violated Clause 3 or 5) and my right to free speech.

I submit as evidence, the following items:

Exhibit A: War Acadamy:Civ Military Calculator
Exhibit B: MilCalc
[/q]

The response from Reddawg (represented by jdjdjd)
Quote:
I am deeply disturbed by the case being brought against me by Mr. Orange. It had been my understanding at the time of the incident that all things were cleared up, and that there was a mutual feeling that the situation was over with. I feel that I committed no other crime than expressing my opinion and pursuing what I felt was necessary to uphold the rules of the game. I will defend my honor in the court to the utmost.
---

It had been mentioned to me that the pertinent information for this case is not readily available. While there are links in the quoted material, they are hidden by the colour scheme. Therefore, I am repeating them here.

The thread:
Apolytonia Defense Review (580 – Vol. I)

Other links:
War Acadamy:Civ Military Calculator
MilCalc
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:01   #3
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The Hearing
This case involves two issues and as such the hearing will be conducted in two parts.

Firstly, did Mr. Orange cheat by playing ahead or in some other way gaining information from a save that was not available to the rest of the citizens of the game?

Secondly, did Reddawg do any wrong in his responses in Mr. Orange's thread?

We will begin by hearing arguments regarding the first issue. Mr. Orange will begin. When he says he is finished, jdjdjd will respond. jdjdjd need not wait for me to invite him provided that Mr. Orange states he is finished.

Once jdjdjd has compleated his opening response I will decide on where to proceed from there. Please wait for my decision.

You may begin Mr. Orange.
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:06   #4
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Thank you, your Honor.

As an elected member of government, Reddawg, unless he explicitly states it within his post, is acting as an elected official every time he participates within a thread, no more acutely presented then with his signature: “Minister of the Economy: Term IV, V / Ministre d'Économie: Session IV, V”.

Being an elected official, the weight of his posts not only reflect the stature of his position but also, as said member, becomes an opinion of the government. Since the MilCalc was available, but Reddawg’s chose not to review it, and still made allegations without specific reference, he knowingly made allegations to the validity of the MilCalc without any basis in fact.

And by posting his statements to the community at large, Reddawg presented false information to the public. As an elected official, representing the government, he violated Article IV: Clause 9. A premeditative failure to review disclosed material does not give precipice to convey inaccurate statements to the community at large.

No elected official has the power to “bend” the rules. An official is bound by the rules to be accurate when posting. If they are not informed about a topic, they need to become so before posting any comments that would be considered disinformation under said law, unless they specifically state they are posting as a citizen and not as an elected official, which Reddawg made no attempt to do.

Reddawg never made any hard correlation to any of the available formulas or references that he saw as potential hazards. The vanity he displayed showed no deference to his admitted false accusations or to his inability to understand the methods to creating statistical estimates. All he was willing to concede was that he felt indignant to his damaging accusations.

Unfortunately, actions have repercussions and Reddawg’s malicious proceedings placed a relative new member to the community inside a public inquisition . By incorrectly associating me with breaking game rules and soiling my contribution through his abuse of language, he preemptively damaged any reputation my contribution might have received.

And by damaging said reputation, Reddawg took away the confidence to further contribute statistical information to the community. What would be the purpose of making said contribution if it would be held suspect without any factual evidence? It would be a constant struggle to reaffirm there was nothing wrong with said work to begin with, a situation that would never occurred if this character assault had never occurred.

If a proven confirmation of negligence determined the statistical information presented was “cheating”, then condemnation would have been warranted. However, in his position of influence, his public condemnation of my contribution was a form punishment, violating Article: IV Clause 8 which concurrently lead to a violation of Article: IV Clause 3 which infringed upon my right to free speech, specifically in the manner of posting said statistical information via the MilCalc.

I have completed my statement.
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:11   #5
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Mr. Orange, to be clear regarding the first issue we are considering...

You maintain that you did not cheat in any way?

You did not click the end turn button?

You did not perform any unreversible action with the save that could be seen as equivalent to playing ahead, such as establishing an embassy, or other such action?

jdjdjd, please wait.
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:15   #6
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Yes. I maintain that I did not cheat in any way.

No. I did not click the end turn button.

No. I did not make any unreversible action with the save that could be seen as equivalent to playing ahead, such as establishing an embassy, or other such action.
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Old November 5, 2002, 19:21   #7
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Thank you Mr. Orange.

You may proceed jdjdjd.

/Edit. Please remain specific to the first issue.
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Old November 5, 2002, 20:52   #8
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Motion.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:20   #9
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Go ahead.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:25   #10
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You Honor.
Thank you, your Honor

For the record, would Mr. jdjdjd acknowledge his presence to the court within an applicable period of time?

Also, concerding the proceeding of this case and toward the interst of the court concerning time, may we move to recess of this case and conveine again at this time tomorrow?
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:27   #11
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Distinguished Members of The Court:

I thank you for allowing my client to defend himself in this lawsuit, and apologize for any delays I may have caused due to RL.

I have read the initial statement of Mr. Orange and quite frankly as a citizen of this nation, was set aback, however, my job here is to defend my client and discuss merely the first issue as listed by Justice notyoueither: Did Mr. Orange cheat. (I do reserve the right at a later time to rebut everyone of the allegations Mr. Orange did make in his opening.)

***********************************************
Issue One:

We agree with Mr. Orange, he did not cheat. The count should be dismissed as there is no dispute and nothing for the Court to decide.

Initially, Reddawg did not have all the details of how Mr. Orange came up with his figures. Mr. Orange did state the following in his initial post in the thread in question:

"Without going into too much detail, using information accessible from Demographics, Military Advisor and the Main Map a set of formulas were devised to gauge a Civ's relative military strength. Obviously, once calculated, they were compared to make this assesment."

It was not clear as to exactly what Mr. Orange meant by "accessible". Reddawg, as a fellow statistician, merely pointed out that hacking into data in some way or obtaining information not normally available during the game, would be improper and against the spirit of the game (which it would have been, however, Mr. Orange did not do that).

Mr. Orange did clarify his calculations in greater detail after that.

While they may still disagree on the validity and reliability of the statistics provided by Mr. Orange, Reddawg does not believe Mr. Orange cheated. Since there is no dispute, this count should be dismissed.

I would like to further state: The Court was not set up so every Mr. Orange could have his ego mended, it was set up to preserve the integrity of the game and this democracy. I am sorry two avid statisticians such as Mr. Orange and Reddawg disagree on the MiCalc, but unfortunately two intelligent men as they, have disagreed since the dawn of time and will continue to disagree till the day the sun burns out. That is why we thirst for freedom of speech, so that we can excel and create beyond what was ever thought before.

Freedom of Speech is a damned thing. Its great when you have it, but a horror when your enemy has it. But, regardless of opinion, the Bill of Rights preserves that right, and as Mr. Orange fights for his, so does Reddawg. A Minister is still a citizen, and is allowed all rights of a citizen.

****************************

Again, we ask that the first issue be dismissed as there is no dispute.

(Edited for grammar/spellin)
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:31   #12
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/Edit. No message since jdjdjd has posted.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:35   #13
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Thank you jdjdjd.

Could the both of you please PM me with the times you are available tomorrow (the 6th).

The court is in recess. Please do not post.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:37   #14
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At this time I would like to move for dismissal, as follow up to my pre-hearing motion, there is no grounds for this complaint. We ask the Court pleas rule prior to proceeding:

1. Mr. Orange did decide voluntarily to quit his citizenship to the demo game. In Amendment III - The Apolytonian Court, it states in 3e. the following:

Quote:
The Court cannot act on any issue until a non-judicial citizen of the nation brings forth an Issue to The Court.

Mr. Orange is not a citizen of the nation, and should not be allowed to bring forth this case to the Court.

2. This case should be dismissed for the following reasons:

Count One: We do not dispute Mr. Orange's contention that he did not cheat. Therefore, this count is not at issue, and there is no need for court intervention.

Count Two: Slander or Libel are not listed in the Code of Laws and therefore the Court has no jurisdication over such cases. Additionally, since the Court can not dole out punishment or compensation, there is no justification to hear this case. Furthermore, Reddawg is entitled to free speech under the Bill Of Rights, section 3, and clearly his speech falls under this right.

Count Three: Reddawg did not persistently allege that Mr. Orange did cheat. He did question whether or not the statistics were valid. He has that right.

The questions and concerns raised by Reddawg in no way falsely provided information to the people. The Bill of Rights, section 7, states:

[QUOTE]
The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people.[\QUOTE]

In this case, Reddawg was not acting in his capacity as the Minister of the Ecconomy, and therefore not a representative of the Government. The discussion in this thread lay outside the scope of control excercised by the Minister of the Economy. He was merely providing his opinion as a fellow avid statistics cruncher.

Finally, in no way did Reddawg prevent Mr. Orange from continuing to excercise his right to free speech, as can be seen in the thread. Despite what Reddawg posted, Mr. Orange continued to excercise his right to free speech and make further posts in the thread.

Based on the above, we ask that the Court dismiss this case and/or find in favor of the Respondent.

Thank you.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:41   #15
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Sorry, nye...
I was typing when you posted.
I am now done.
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Old November 5, 2002, 21:42   #16
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jdjdjd, I grant you the consideration that that was a cross post and you had not seen my post previous to this.

Your motion is being considered by the court and I will post again on that topic this evening. Now...

The court is in recess. Do not post.
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Old November 6, 2002, 22:20   #17
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Summary Judgement
Mr. Orange did not cheat. Mr. Orange maintains this fact, the Respondents do not contest this fact, and none of the members of the Court find any reason to decide otherwise.

3 to 0. Kramerman, Nimitz, notyoueither agree.


/Edited ruling line
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Old November 6, 2002, 22:20   #18
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Summary Judgement
Mr. Orange enjoys the status of a citizen of the Nation of Apolytonia. He posted properly in the Join Thread. We are unaware of him posting again in that thread. As for any statements he may have made as to 'not participating', they do not negate his right as a citizen to a full hearing of his grievance before this Court.

3 to 0. Kramerman, Nimitz, notyoueither agree.


/Edited ruling line
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Old November 6, 2002, 22:22   #19
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The rest of the motion is dismissed. The hearing will continue with the second issue.

The consensus of the court is that for Reddawg to have done anything wrong, what he did must violate the Code of Laws or the bounds of a civil society in a significant manner. Significant enough for the seriousness of his actions to overcome his right to free speech.

3 to 0. Kramerman, Nimitz, notyoueither agree.


/Edited ruling line
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Old November 6, 2002, 22:34   #20
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The hearing will continue now to examine the 2nd issue; that being 'did Reddawg do any wrong in his responses in Mr. Orange's thread' and to refine that, was the wrong of a serious enough nature to outway Reddawg's right to free speech?

/Edit.

You may proceed with your opening argument Mr. Orange. Once you state that you are finished jdjdjd may post his opening response.

I am opening this up a little. Neither Mr. Orange, nor jdjdjd need wait for my invitation to post so long as they alternate in their posts and each waits until the other has stated that he is finished.

Please be respectful of each other and the court. I would not like to find 3 or 10 unanswered posts that go on at length on the same theme. It is far easier for us to judge an issue if we do not go to sleep while reading the arguments.

2nd Edit/ No one else should be posting in this thread prior to my invitaion. Other justices may intervene as they see fit. That is their place and their role.
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Old November 7, 2002, 20:07   #21
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Thank you, your Honor.

I apologize for any delay.

***
I have no problem with one citizen making a statement toward another. Questioning the validly of particular information is a right of free speech given to us by our Constitution. Nor do I see any problems in displaying faults in said information if it has been proven through factual representation to be "wrong".

But there was no clear indication that Reddawg had any specific questions to ask. What had been posted were inaccurate insinuations, made by a standing member of government about the integrity of a presentation, who at no time made any distinction of acting as an independent citizen.

How is a citizen supposed to know if an elected official is acting under government auspices or on their own volition without documentation within the post? All that was documented was the signature “Minister of the Economy”.

That is why Reddawg made those allegations without acknowledging his posts were being made as an independent citizen. That is why he made the allegations without specific references to the MilCalc. He indignantly posted from a position of authority. From what authority? His elected position in government.

Reddawg never made any reference to having looked at said information to make any of his statements. But the information was readily available. If someone knows they have access to information that could make a statement valid, but choose not to use that information, making that statement false, it is a premeditative choice.

By having a choice to make those false statements, without any indication the statements were being made as an independent citizen, Reddawg as a member of government, knowingly gave false information to other citizens. A violation to free speech and crime under our Constitution.

***
I have completed my statement
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Old November 7, 2002, 20:28   #22
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Esteemed Members of The Court,

Before I go on, I must point out that since the Original Code of Laws is still in place, and was in place at the time of this incident, I am relying on those in all my responses. Please let me know if you feel otherwise.

************************************************** **

Now on to the matter at hand.

The question to discuss now is:

did Reddawg do anything wrong, i.e., did it violate the Code of Laws or the bounds of a civil society in a significant manner? Significant enough for the seriousness of his actions to overcome his right to free speech.

The answer is an emphatic: No!

Mr. Orange refers to the Bill of Rights, Amendment IV Clause 7, which states:

Quote:
The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people.
He has gone to great lengths to state that Reddawg was acting in his official capacity as Minister of the Economy and that Reddawg did provide false information to the people while acting as a representative of the Government. He implies that any Minister, Justice or Government Official does act as a Government representative every time they post, regardless of what that post entails.

Thus, Government Officials are not allowed to joke, critique, disagree, opine, analyze, etc., without being scrutinized for every iota of information they write. That was not the intent of that Clause. Furthermore, it would be a terrible burden to place on those people who volunteer their time as Government Officials without compensation in a Game, to be sure that every time they made a post that they were not wrong, misinformed, opinionated, critical, disagreeable, and so on, on a topic; for fear that some member of the Game may sue them.

It is our opinion that Reddawg was not acting in an official capacity because the discussion did not deal with the Economy, and the duties of the Minister of the Economy as explained in Amendment I - Minister of the Economy (which I will not quote here due to its length).

Furthermore, Clause 7 does not apply, because it states that the act must be known to be false by the government at the time.
Everything Reddawg wrote at the time he wrote it, in his opinion, was true. And Reddawg never said "Mr. Orange cheated", knowing full well Mr. Orange did not cheat.

Please note: Reddawg never did say Mr. Orange cheated, he merely pointed out that a certain way of getting applicable data would have been cheating, not that Mr. Orange cheated.

Therefore, based on the fact that Reddawg was not acting in his capacity as Minister of the Economy, and that he did not knowingly make false statements; he did not violate Clause 7 of the Bill of Rights Amendment.

*********************************************

Now, I would like to specifically address this comment by Mr. Orange

Quote:
No elected official has the power to “bend” the rules. An official is bound by the rules to be accurate when posting. If they are not informed about a topic, they need to become so before posting any comments that would be considered disinformation under said law, unless they specifically state they are posting as a citizen and not as an elected official, which Reddawg made no attempt to do.
First, where in the Code of Laws does it state that a Minister must distinguish his posts, i.e. those as an official, and those not as an official? No where.

Second, where in the Code of Laws does it say that a government official is bound by the rules to be accurate? No where.

I put it to the members of the Court, are you accurate with every post? Are you fully informed every time you post? Well, if you find in favor of Mr. Orange, you darn well better be from now on, else you are at risk of being sued for spreading "disinformation".

There is nothing in the Code of Laws saying that you must state whether or not you are acting as a Government Official and that all statements must be accurate and made with full review of the facts, for one reason:

It would be overburdensome and impracticable.

*******************************************

We would also like to address the issue presented by Mr. Orange that Reddawg did damage his reputation. We know of no such damage. Other posters in the thread, including Meshelic, UnOrthOdOx, and adaMada; esteemed members of the community, did support and praise the analysis Mr. Orange provided. They did this after reviewing the alleged damaging remarks made by Reddawg.

Furthermore, how do we know the MiCalc is all that Mr. Orange says it is? I am no expert, but perhaps Reddawg is correctly criticizing the MiCalc. Isn't that possible? Until someone can prove that Reddawg knowingly falsely criticized the MiCalc, then this case should be decided in Reddawg's favor.

Having said that, please also consider this...the Code of Laws does not discuss slander, libel or damage to reputation; and therefore, Reddawg did not violate the Law. In fact, he was using his right to free speech as stated in the Bill of Rights, Amendment IV Clause 3. Reddawg has the right to state he disagrees with the statistics provided, just as Meshelic, UnOrthOdOx, and adaMada had the right to agree. Reddawg's right to free speech are only limited by the Rules of Apolyton and the Code of Laws. Neither were violated.

It would be great to live in a world where we all agree all the time.....wait, no it wouldn't.

So, it is our opinion that Mr. Orange sustained no damage, and even if he did, there is nothing in the Code of Laws governing slander, liable or damage to reputation. Additionally, there is nothing to prove that Reddawg's criticism of the MiCalc is wrong. Again, Reddawg broke no Laws and therefore the case should be decided in his favor.

One last matter here is what could the Court do in this case? What punishment? What compensation? There is nothing provided for in the Code of Laws empowering the Court in this manner. The case should be dismissed for not only is there no violation and no damages, but there is no possible remedy.

*******************************************

Finally, the actions of Reddawg in no way prevented Mr. Orange from speaking freely. Mr. Orange continued to post, and could continue to post. It is difficult to be criticized, but as the saying goes:

That which does not kill me only makes me stronger

Reddawg is entitled to his free speech, even if it is in disagreement with what Mr. Orange states. Even if his tone may be considered by Mr. Orange to be unpleasant. Could you imagine the number of cases the Court would have had to decide between Sir Ralph and Spiffor, were it to be that every time either man talked to the other in an unpleasant manner they sued?!

I beleive it was Thomas Payne, the great defense lawyer, (or maybe it was Oliver Douglas from Green Acres) who said (I paraphrase)

Quote:
I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it.
We all need to heed this.

Reddawg did nothing wrong he excercised his right to free speech and he did not break Apolyton Rules in his post nor the Code of Laws of Apolytonia. Nor did he over step the bounds of a civil society in a significant manner. Therefore, this case should be decided in Reddawg's favor.

*****************************************

In summary, it is our opinion that Reddawg did not violate the Code of Laws in any way. Also, what Reddawg said and the tone he used, did not over step the bounds of a civil society. I agree lines should be drawn, but freedom of speech would be stifled if the line was drawn here.

Thank you and I am sorry for going on so long.

I am done.

Edited for spelling/grammar, and correcting to Thomas Payne. Thanks.
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Old November 7, 2002, 21:44   #23
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Thank you both for the well stated arguments.

Mr. Orange, you may respond to jdjdjd's argument in rebuttal. jdjdjd may then reply with his rebuttal if he so wishes. Note that rebuttal is not mandatory. It is your choice.

Some members of the public have questions pending. Perhaps we will reach them this evening. I would like everyone to wait until Mr. Orange has posted, and jdjdjd has responded. I will then consider opening the thread to questions from the public.
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Old November 8, 2002, 13:15   #24
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Thank you, your Honor.

*****

By jdjdjd:
Quote:
Everything Reddawg wrote at the time he wrote it, in his opinion, was true.
If this were a set of disparaging statements between two citizens, it would be considered legal. At no time does a citizen not have the right to post. But there is a law that defines a certain parameter of free speech for an elected official; they must be accurate to their knowledge. It does not state a government official has to be accurate only in deference to their elected position.

By jdjdjd:
Quote:
There is nothing in the Code of Laws saying that you must state whether or not you are acting as a Government Official and that all statements must be accurate and made with full review of the facts, for one reason:

It would be overburdensome and impracticable.
If making an argument on speculation, that might violate the rule, the beginning of any post could have been as simple as * “As a citizen…” *.

Reddawg never made any correlation he was acting as a citizen his own behalf. And under the law, he is bound to the rules of being an elected official. In that capacity, he was bound by law to be accurate. If the information in question was not available, it would leave room for speculation. But all the resources were available to be accurate and still there was no documentation that shows the information was reviewed. It was a premeditative choice * not * review the information.

By adaMada:
Quote:
According to one of the calculators on his site (this just being for the Casulty Calculator, but I'd think it'd be similar for all), all the information the calculator uses can be found in the Military and Demographic advisor screens. Anything input into a Green cell is a hard number from the game; anything in a yellow cell is a calculation from the hard data; and anything in a red cell is approximations from the yellow squares.
This is documentation of proof that adaMada took the time to view said information. Where is Reddawg’s?

By Reddawg:
Quote:
I had assumed on reading the stats that you were working off real data and not conjectures or estimates.
as·sump·tion n
1. something that is believed to be true without proof
2. believing something to be true without proof

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation.

By Mr. Orange:
Quote:
...a set of formulas were devised to gauge a Civ's relative military strength. Obviously, once calculated, they were compared to make this assesment.
The MilCalc does not make statistics, it created data to make statistics. The graphic comparison of that data is what Reddawg was using to argue about the integrity of calculations. But the calculations are done within the MilCalc. Again, where is the evidence of reviewing the MilCalc?

Everyone was new once, looking for a voice to participate within the community. Upon arriving, a new citizen looks to those who have accumulated a lot of posts or have been elected to government as an anchor of what is positive decorum within the community. They are our leaders and to a certain extend enjoy a degree of popularity from their commitment to the game. But the one * major * difference between an old soul and an elected official is that elected officials are duty bound to be accurate.

Reddawg presented no reference as acting as an independent citizen, made no attempt to review the information available and made accusations, while under the auspices of government, that were false and act that is in violation of our rules. Is this positive? No. And what example does it show to the rest of the community about proper decorum? None.

*****

I have completed my rebuttal.
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Old November 8, 2002, 15:48   #25
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Justices,

I will be brief.

A member of the government is not bound by law to be accurate.

A member of the government is not bound by law to state in their posts they are acting on official or private business.

Reddawg did not knowingly provide false information.

Failure to be fully informed is not a vioaltion of the Code of Laws.

Reddawg does not need to prove he was fully informed.

There is no proof Reddawg was not fully informed or was wrong in his statements.

Making assumptions (please see Mr. Orange's definition above if you do not know the meaning of this word) is not a violation of the Code of Laws, and in fact assumptions are made everyday, by all people including Mr. Orange, in his MiCalc.

Elected Officials and long time members are not bound by law to be roll models in anyway.

No law has been violated, no damages have been sustained, no remedy is allowed under the law - the case should be decided in Reddawg's favor.

We again ask for immediate dismissal of all remaining charges.

Thank you.

/EDIT: My rebuttal is complete:
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Old November 8, 2002, 16:32   #26
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Thank you both.

I now invite members of the public to ask questions. Please be patient for their answers, and avoid debating with the litigants. You may ask. They will each answer if appropriate.
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Old November 8, 2002, 16:48   #27
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May it please the court.

My questions are for Mr. Orange.

Mr Orange, you stated that:

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Orange
If this were a set of disparaging statements between two citizens, it would be considered legal. At no time does a citizen not have the right to post. But there is a law that defines a certain parameter of free speech for an elected official; they must be accurate to their knowledge. It does not state a government official has to be accurate only in deference to their elected position.
Firstly, you seem to agree that citizens can criticize and insult each other, make incorrect statements against each other, but then say that Elected officials cannot? Are you saying that Elected Officials lose their right to free speech or have lesser rights than citizens?

Are you saying that the prohibition from an elected official to knowingly give false information means that all elected officials are required to always be fully informed?

Hypothetically, if I told a citizen that his trade proposal scheme was "a waste of time and wouldn't be worth the trouble" but I haven't fully researched his proposal, would I be breaking the law, in your opinion?

And lastly:
If Reddawg did break the law, what should the Court do about it?

Thank you.

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Old November 8, 2002, 16:59   #28
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Permission to speak? (Not sure if it's still needed, but the top post has it in, so thought I'd be safe ).

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Old November 8, 2002, 17:15   #29
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Thank you for asking.
You may post your question.
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Old November 8, 2002, 17:18   #30
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I also request permission to address the court.
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