Do you cheat in deity/raging?

January 6, 2001, 11:26

Hi all!

I'm new here (but not new to TBS-games!) and decided to start a deity/raging with the biggest random map, biggest land masses as continents and 7 civs. I ended up to a continent where I was alone. I'm really shocked how difficult it is! I decided not to use save/load-cheat with for example getting the stuff from the huts you want.

So my question is: do you have to cheat to win in the game? I've seen that quite many in here are playing deity/raging. How do you do it?

Keeping people happy seems very hard task. I first got monarchy, then build 3 units and temple to have 5-sized cities. I build my continent full of cities and as game went on something strange happened. Newly found city's 1. inhabitant was immediately black and even 3 units didn't make him content. I had to put my only worker as entertainer and start building temple very slowly. Does anyone know when a person is black rebellian?

I had tremendous problems to get money.. corruption was so high it wouldn't help much to build market places. Maybe I should have built the court after temple? I tried to build trade routes from my 5-6 size city to another and that gave me a 0-profit both ways! Those two cities were at least 30 map squares away. How disappointing!

For wonders I managed to get GL, oracle and Leo, but all the rest went to AI players

Even the pyramids to my great disappointment.

I first met Americans who immediately demanded me monarchy and when I declined they went to war with me and destroyed my poor diplomat.. same happened to me with 1. contact with England. Japan was more kind to me and I exchanged all the advances with them and even got an alliance with them.

My game is now at 1750 AD as I discovered gunpowder. I'm biggest in population but military conquest would be difficult as all the enemies are behind ocean.

A little background info of me: after playing CTP1 & 2 I have returned to this old classic of CIV2, because I got bored of CTP2's (Call to Power 2) lack of AI aggression. AI simply doesn't attack you but very rarely. It won't even take your empty cities!

Could someone kindly offer me some tips what I should do differently? And for that cheating question, what's your way?
[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited January 06, 2001).]

jcarkey · January 6, 2001, 12:08

No, I don't cheat. And don't think that CIV2's AI is any better.

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

Lefty Scaevola · January 6, 2001, 12:14

I believe raging hordes is an overall benifit at all levels, but particularly at the higher ones. The human player is better at dealing with barbs than the AI. So, in additon to a score bonus, it retards the AI's devolopment more than the human's.

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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

Wiglaf · January 6, 2001, 12:52

quote:

And don't think that CIV2's AI is any better.

Oh but it is!

quote:

Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

I have to disagree with Lefty, though. The AI in my games slaughters barbs without breaking a sweat, and the computer doesn't get annoyed like the human would when they don't stop coming. And Marko, switch to fundy as fast as possible - no more riots. Use spies from then on to get tech if needed.

jcarkey · January 6, 2001, 14:08

SMACed, I've never played CTP2 so I wouldn't know. But my logic was that newer games would probably be updated and improved.

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

Lefty Scaevola · January 6, 2001, 15:09

I find that barbs a mostly a scource of revenue, cheap units to bribe, and useful training marterial to make my tropps veteran. I find no trouble with them untile the 1800s when they start getting those huge swarms of guerillas (1/3mp all terrain ignore zoc) with cavalry (8 attack factor). sometimes near pesistance barb appearing area, after i have gurrilla warfare and I am in democracy, I build cities for the purpose of the barbs capturing them (trying to manage it so they get there with just 1 unit) to thus recieve my own swarm of NON guerilla units.

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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

Wiglaf · January 6, 2001, 16:50

quote:

But my logic was that newer games would probably be updated and improved

Keep in mind Activision is developing ctp2 and they have no idea how to make a tbs game - the ideas are good but the execution is sloppy.

Smash · January 6, 2001, 17:25

Here is good tip for deity newcomers.Forget the Pyramids and put high priority on the Hanging Gardens.

zyxpsilon · January 6, 2001, 17:43

quote:

Originally posted by Marko_Polo on 01-06-2001 10:26 AM
do you have to cheat to win in the game?

I -never- cheat!
That's where the real challenge lies.
How to beat "DEITY"?

Here's a hint:
BOATS, PLANES and AUTOMOBILES! First.

Capture the raging Barbarian LEADERS every single opportunity you get.
Without the Eiffel Tower? Good luck.
Democratically yours.

Bereta_Eder · January 7, 2001, 01:38

Today I started my very first Deity game! I played in Emperor all along and I thought, since most of the times I won in Emperor, I would be up to the challenge.

Wrong. Two things give me a hard time. AI and unhappiness. But I have to say that the most exasperating is trying to keep the populace happy in Deity.

In Emperor my cities would rarely go into disorder, in Deity it happens all the time. Thank God I haven't yet faced a city with size 1 and unhappy...

I tried to wage war against the always pissed off russians but I lost a city and the russian military kept coming. They don't pull any punches in deity huh?!
In a few turns they had destroyed half of the seven civs and their civ became huge.

Anyway, I started to remain behind in technology (alway my foremost concern) so I did something radical:
I forged an alliance with the russians. «All» it took was 200 gold and the secret of writing. It wasn't hard to do to stay alive.

If only they would give me enough time to get my killer state machine up and running like I know how to do...

Dammit I feel like a protectorate. Deity is tough!
But I'll keep true to the promise of never ever going back on a saved game in Civ.

I don't know what will happen next to my civ but my advice is (for now) if you can't beat them join them.

Scouse Gits · January 7, 2001, 09:43

No - I don't cheat - what's the point?

To handle the unhappiness problems in Deity you might try following one of the tried strategies such as DaveV's ICS - see the temporary Great Library (the sticky thread at the top of the Strategy forum

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Bereta_Eder · January 8, 2001, 09:04

Thanx for the info guys. I have the guide but I am relunctant to read it. I just want to discover (and unescapably suffer) everything on my own.

About the hanging gardens and oracle, yeah they seem to be necessary. Too bad they are already built by others...

With so many entertainers, my empire is starting to look like a damn circus

Laertes · January 8, 2001, 09:35

I can't believe this thread has run for so long without mention of caravans and trade.

The #1 most powerful unit in the game is the caravan/freight. Delivering a caravan to a distant, preferably overseas, foreign city will give you gold, science beakers and trade arrows. The amounts can be huge (1000 gold, 8 turns of beakers and 3 arrows per turn of trade). The earlier you get it delivered, the better the pay off. Other factors are distance, no of trade arrows in each city, and whether the good is demanded or not in the destination city.

Science and trade are so important that most strategies include a Super Science City with Collosus, Copernicus and Isaac, and lots of caravans to/from that city. Only the Infinite City Sleaze strategy does not include this city.

Trade arrows also lead to luxury benefits which increase happiness.

Caravans also allow rush building of wonders, and are usually required if you are trying to build Hanging Gardens, Collosus and Copernicus.

I never build the Oracle, Bach is better and lasts forever.

There is a predictable pattern of cities becoming black-unhappy. A search through the archives should find it, as we discussed it recently. On a small world at Deity, in Monarchy, your 9th city (I think) could have a black pirate as it first citizen.

The solution to unhappiness is warriors. Cheap to rush build, and give one content citizen up to a max of three.

Early build patterns for non-wonder buildiong cities are often something like warrior-settler-warrior-settler-warrior-caravan-settler-settler-temple. Leaving the temple until late saves money (tax rate vs science). You need a temple for your 5th citizen, in a "normal happy" city, there is seldom need to build it before that.

As you progress, get Michalangelo and then republic for another trade benefit and rapid city growth with "We Love the COnsul" days.

Alternatively, refer to Xin Yu's "Size 5 strategy" or DaveV's ICS strategy for completely different routes.

kcbob · January 8, 2001, 09:38

I don't cheat. What you're referring to in your original post as save/load was something I did until I was advised against it by the members at Apolyton. The bottom line was, grin and bear it, live and learn, yada, yada, yada. But it was good advice. The closest I come now to cheating is giving up when I'm sure it's a lost cause. While that may vary from 3000 BC to 1500 AD, I still consider it a loss. With that in mind, I would have to say my success rate at Deity level is around 30 to 50 percent. Others might be more successful but, hey, at least it keeps me coming back.

I will say this, though. There have been a couple of games that I played through to what I thought would be the bitter end and was pleasantly surprised by my success in the latter stages of the game.

As for happiness, it is difficult, to be sure. As Smash said, HG is a huge plus. I used to not bother with it until I got seduced by ICS. Regardless of which style I play, though, I also almost always start to build temples early. You never can be too happy, n'est-ce pas?

One thing I've learned recently. Whenever you change governments or take a city or found a city, check with your attitude advisor ASAP!! I've been burned a couple of times on being slow there.

* edit *

And as Fergus just mentioned, MC is also huge for happiness.

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Frodo lives!
[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited January 08, 2001).]

weird god · January 8, 2001, 10:45

cheating? the AI is the only one who cheats is my rare single-player games

Daddy-O · January 8, 2001, 16:06

No I don't cheat.

With that said, it is nice to see that others have problems winning at Diety level. I was starting to get the idea that I was the worst Civer around.

I am starting to play the Size 5 Strategy. It will take some practice. I like to try to combine that with a SSC. No luck yet at Diety but I'll get there. Unhappiness and all of its ills are the toughest part. I used to shy away from the Barbs but I am surprised at how often they fall when attacked.

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"Bonjour, you cheese-eatin' surrender-monkeys."

Bohlen · January 8, 2001, 16:42

Most everyone has their own personalized strategy, which incorporates any or all of the various helpful hints listed in these pages of Apolyton, when winning at Deity. Well, at least that is what I do. A little bit of ICS, a Super Science City (even if broken), some aggression, and overpowering espionage works for me. But every game is different and calls for a modified strategy, no matter what that strategy is. The most important thing that I learned was keeping martial law with warriors in the beginning. That is the one thing that got me over the Deity hump. Those 10 shield warriors will eventually turn into Riflemen with Leo's in your grasp. Yes, Caravans are very important too. And Communism (for some) is key. And the Gardens. And Sun Tzu's if you are going to fight....And...And...And...The list goes on and on.

The bottom line...To fully enjoy this game, don't even think about using the cheat menu to win. It's a lot more fun to get your butt kicked a while and then legitimately win because you learned how to beat the game through all of those bad losses. It's the challenge of this game that is so much fun.

Good luck!

War4ever · January 8, 2001, 21:52

Well i believe bohlen hit the nail on the head when he stated that each game is different....... strategies are fine and appealing when the right circumstance warrants them. Most often though, they need to be tweaked, and only experience will teach you that

Caravans are simply the most important unit you can build. There used to be a saying around here.......
"build caravans.... when you cant' think of anything good to build ,build more caravans".

Warriors are splendid for martial law.
Hanging Gardens and or The Great Wall will make expansion better.
Suns if your going to go conquering.
SSC is great for any style of play.
Happy wonders make expansion and growth easier.
If lots of water, naval wonders are very important.

Learn to use those bottle necks, let the ai, waste its resources on you fortified mountain tops.

Try to avoid taking on all the civs at once. If your going to crush someone, do it, dont' go in half assed.

Don't build the library it only slows you down........ instead build Marcos.

Decide early and stick with it, if your going for AC or for world domination, if you try to do both you may find yourself wasting resources better spent in the other direction.

Try not to let civs get out of control...... pretend your american, and slap them around when they misbehave.

Dont build improvements that wont' reap benefits immediately, those shields are better placed on settlers or even better, CARAVANS

Definitely use wltkd to grow, saves time and energy, although some may say its a crutch for the weaker player, LOL just ignore them.

Use important military windows of opportunity to your advantage.

Keep on expanding , real estate is important

Build those caravans

OK thats enough for now, and remember one thing, its all moot once you start MP ing, humans are far craftier........ good luck and keep on civin

Scouse Gits · January 9, 2001, 09:39

Don't forget to do some "Xinning" as well.
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=21:30

Good to see you back WAR.

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SG (2)

Bohlen · January 9, 2001, 17:06

Yes, welcome back War. I'll just ignore that reference of "the crutch." Man, I don't want that to start again.

Daddy-O · January 9, 2001, 17:24

quote:

Definitely use wltkd to grow, saves time and energy, although some may say its a crutch for the weaker player, LOL just ignore them.

"WLTKD"?

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"Bonjour, you cheese-eatin' surrender-monkeys."

Rufus T. Firefly · January 10, 2001, 06:16

quote:

Originally posted by kcbob on 01-08-2001 08:38 AM
I don't cheat. What you're referring to in your original post as save/load was something I did until I was advised against it by the members at Apolyton. The bottom line was, grin and bear it, live and learn, yada, yada, yada. But it was good advice.

I have to disagree. As a newbie trying to get to Deity, I find save/load hugely useful -- not for winning, but for learning. It gives me the chance to see how two or three different choices have an impact on the game, and that helps me formulate strategy. Given how long a game takes, and how varied games can be, this is much more effective than just losing, starting again, and hoping the occasion arises to experiment with "option B" next time.

Still, it goes without saying that you haven't really won until you've won without save/reload

-- but as an educational tool, it's invaluable.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

Carolus Rex · January 10, 2001, 07:28

I never cheat. Anyone can win at deity every time and I don't say that to brag or make others look bad. It's simply a matter of dedication and practice!

Just play the game and hang around these forums, especially the strategy and multiplayer ones, and you'll pick up lots of good stuff and kick the AIs' butts all over the map or land on AC with only one city in the 1800s.

WLTXD = We Love The X Day, where X can be:

- Leader (L), when generally speaking of celebrating
- King (K), celebrating under monarchy
- Consul (C), you get the idea

- President (P)

Carolus

kcbob · January 10, 2001, 09:33

quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 01-10-2001 05:16 AM
I have to disagree. As a newbie trying to get to Deity, I find save/load hugely useful -- not for winning, but for learning.

I would have thought that a lot of your learning would have been done before you tackled Deity level. Oh, wait. Now I understand your statement. Yes, it would be useful but as it was pointed out to me, you might get into some bad habits without realizing it. Some day, you'll have to give it up. I just decided the sooner the better. My brother-in-law still does it to excess and it drive me crazy to watch him!

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Frodo lives!

cbn · January 10, 2001, 17:02

Cheating is not necessary to win at deity. When I played CIV 1 I found King and Emporer a challenge but with CIV2 I discovered these Apolyton forums and after a LOT of reading started playing deity. After 8 straight deity wins I then tried OCC on deity and after 1 loss at that went on to win 5 deity OCC games. I then switched over to SMAC and find that again after a learning curve it is beatable at the highest level.

After using some of the tips here and doing things such as landing a spaceship in the 1880s (despite some huge tactical and strategic errors) I can say with confidence that the game can be beaten regularly (even routinely) on deity. Then you have to seek further challenges (scenarios or self limitations) or go into multiplayer.

One point on raging hordes-- I generally like barbarians as a source of cash and NON units. After a time you can predict where they will appear and deal with them to an advantage.

Likewise on the higher playing level. The AI researching better means that in the early game at least they might have techs worth stealing/trading for.

So don't lose hope-- If you follow some of the basic strategies on here you will soon win most of your deity games with relative ease.

Mercantile · January 10, 2001, 20:38

I agree with most everything stated on these replies except for grabbing as much real estate as you can.

Being a perfectionist, i try to cap my cities at a certain size, thus reducing my micromanagement, but also putting more emphasis on my trading empire.

I do agree that the more land you have, the less land your enemies will have. However, i do not place cities just for the sake of covering territory. I look for the BEST possible locations and then micromanage my ass off. I prefer not to waste any shields nor do i like wasting any resources, especially trade.

Sometimes this leaves me vulnerable in games as then my defenses are not quite up to surviving a prolonged siege, but against the ai, i am willing to take my chances

Humans, as i have been learning over and over again, are very tricky and sense weakness. I lack killer instince which is lethal in this game. Thus in MP i am usually waaaaay behind.

However, against the ai, you can win with any assortment of styles and amount of cities, and i prefer as few as possible, other wise i get overwhelmed.

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Wiglaf · January 10, 2001, 21:53

quote:

However, i do not place cities just for the sake of covering territory. I look for the BEST possible locations and then micromanage my ass off. I prefer not to waste any shields nor do i like wasting any resources, especially trade.

Placing tons of cities is very important, it allows you to rake in the tech and money. The only downside you mentioned really is overshadowed by having the biggest empire on the map

[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited January 10, 2001).]

Mercantile · January 11, 2001, 00:40

Well well well, look who showed up for the debate

While i do agree its nice to have cities, my personal preference is to build cities with lots of specials in them. I find this makes the cities far more productive as long as there is enough grass around to grow.

I am not one to build around lots of plains or in a mountain zone etc, just to connect my cities. I would rather build roads, and then micromanage my butt off. Not too mention the game turns don't take nearly as long this way

BTW, good to see you my friend, i thought maybe you had given up in our friendly debates

Carolus Rex · January 11, 2001, 04:43

quote:

Originally posted by Mercantile on 01-10-2001 07:38 PM
I lack killer instince which is lethal in this game.

Exactly my problem! I can keep up, but when it comes to finishing the other guy off, it just doesn't happen...

Space - the final frontier!

Carolus

War4ever · January 11, 2001, 20:33

"Space the final frontier" LOL, more like an escape pod from raging warmongers

Poor Mercantile....... simply unable to wage war..... very similar to the ai in that regard