Official Poll on the Palace move decision

[E_T]

As concerns after my publishing of the Construction Shack - 870AD (and beyond) Corruption & Waste Statistics Report have been expressed, I'm posting this poll about our decision to move the Palace to Timeline. As the figures show, this would most likely not be a good choice for the move.

In that report, I also showed figures for Macross City & Here It Is, as these two cities are the best developed to start a build up towards moving the Palace to them within a reasonable amount of time and cost. But these might not be the ultamate choice for the nation and this poll will also explore other alternatives with the option to vote for some other city.

Currently, Timeline is building the Palace and could be switched to either a Bank or University without losing any shields. But this decision must be made before the next turnchat, as this opportunity to switch will only last 1 turn for a Bank and 3 turns for a University (before being completed on the next turn.

Of the other possibilities, Macross City has the needed Prerequisites for the Palace build. It is size 12, but would need some Infrastructure changes to help decrease the TOC. Currently, the Palace could be built in 70 turns from start or 64 turns if the current build of a Library (1 shield left) is changed to the Palace.

Here It Is also has the Prerequisites for the build. It is currently at Size 9, but is rapidly increasing. It will need some Mountains Mined, to bring up full production and decrease the TOC. Currently, the Palace could be built here in 60 turns from start or 56 turns if the current build of a Library (1 turn left) is changed to the Palace. This TOC estimate would require greatly reducing this cities growth rate and might require adding a worker or two to the city. If the Growth rate is kept, the TOC's would be 82 turns from scratch and 76 turns with the switch.

In either case, we need the Libraries. But we'll also be losing the GA in about 6 turns. This part will be left for thread debate.

The Palace Move is a necessity, for the continued Growth of our nation while keeping our cities (current and future) as productive as possible.

I'll post an update corruption report thread soon and I'll link it in to this Poll.

This Poll will last for 5 days, but might be extended if there is enough of a public desire for it. An Extension might cause a delay in the next schedualled turnchat.

[EDIT] Add the link to Construction Shack - 940AD (and beyond) Corruption & Waste Statistics Report. It has some further Information on this issue.

E_T

[Arnelos]

If this poll is 5 days, it will likely not be complete in time for the next turnchat (which must be by this weekend due to the lame-duck turnchat requirement in the current CoL). It is my intention to hold a turnchat on either Friday or Saturday.

If this poll can be altered to make it only 3 days (whoever has control over the ZpellZ), please do so.

If not, the CP can just follow the option with the prevailing lead in the poll by the time of the chat.

[Meshelic]

After listing the potential sites to move the Palace to, I only have on question:

Where do YOU recommend we move the Palace to? I'm sure you are the foremost knowledge on this subject, and I'm sure you have an opinion on it...

[Arnelos]

While I haven't researched this issue to the extent that I'm sure others have, I sense that Timeline would be superior for the following reason:

Timeline is SIGNIFICANTLY closer to Mingapulco province and Uber Isle than the various sites in French-annexed territory.

Also, Timeline is within the bounds of the Apolytonian heartland... considering that we essentially have the game "won" and we can put the palace whereever we damn please, we can afford to use sentiment to trump some marginal increase in income here (if such an increase exists, which it may very well not).

As such, I think that the the Apolytonian ethnic group and the heartland of traditional Apolyton would consider it an intollerable affront to move the capital of the republic out of traditional Greater Apolytonia and into occupied France!

I'm sure that if Duddha were still around, the ARE would offer us a forceful argument toward this. Oddly enough, even though I have very little sentiment with the ARE or even of the MPP (which certainly also opposes moving the capital into occupied France), I would be equally opposed to moving the palace so far away from Apolyton - our namesake and the true center of all that is glorious and Apolytonian!

Why would the Apolytonian Republic rule Apolyton from far-off France, an inferior nation we rightly conquered?

[roadcage]

E_T ran several palace location scenarios in previous threads that clearly showed that Moving the palace to Timeline was not worth the effort. (There actually was more empire wide corruption and waste with Timeline, than the current location). Not much mind you but why throw away 1000 shields to increase corruption.

Of the sites suggested, Marcross City was the best but only marginally better than leavng it alone.

What the real issue is, that we have not yet committed to our next major campaign.

Going north tends to favor Timeline
Going South tends to favor other selections.

And most important of all, Timeline NEEDS a bank and university far more than we need a new palace.

More often than not, in RL and in pc games, the best decision is to delay the decision until absolutely necessary.

So, Vote to delay the palace. It's the right thing to do.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by roadcage
E_T ran several palace location scenarios in previous threads that clearly showed that Moving the palace to Timeline was not worth the effort. (There actually was more empire wide corruption and waste with Timeline, than the current location). Not much mind you but why throw away 1000 shields to increase corruption.

Then I would heavily support keeping the Palace in APOLYTON, our namesake and our true home.

[roadcage]

Then I would heavily support keeping the Palace in APOLYTON, our namesake and our true home.

It was my unstated hope, that people would recognize that a vote to delay is a vote for Apolyton by proxy. I to feel that Apolyton will turn out to be the best solution, but can be convinced if and when numbers to the contrary appear.

[E_T]

Actually, of all of the choices, Macross City is the best. Apolyton it good for what we have now, but it will improve with the palace in Macross City. We currently have 12 cities that are FP centric, the rest (36) are Palace Centric. With the move to Timeline, there is no difference, except to make some of our best producing cities 2nd & 3rd rate. If it's moves to Macross, the numbers become more balanced with 21 being FP centric and 27 being Palace centric. HII would be FP:18, Pal: 30. The move to HII would possibly (I didn't include those cities in my figures) allow us to expand further south that we have originally planned, by current provence bounderies.

Personally and Professionally, Macross City is the best. This will also give that area a higher cultural output against Greece and for when we do go get Alex.

E_T

[E_T]

As for the next campain, either Germany or England. All of the English cities (that we want) are FP Centric (no matter where the Palace is). Germany's 5 southern cities are also FP Centric (now and with Macross). Having these won't effect our core cities and help give us some balance.

England had MV, Germany has CO. Germany is the tech leader and we can take tech & Lytons from them. England Has a tech lead over us, but only because the get it from Germany & Rome.

Greece should wait until AFTER the Palace is moved. Taking any Greek cities now would make some of our cities that have had a "repreave" from Corruption with the building of the FP, would be effected by adding new Greek Cities. Currently, our Highest corruption is in Grenoble (soon to be elinimated) at 93%, followed by the position of the Site 2 City at 88% (56 with courthouse). Let me get some production out of those cities, before you kill them with corruption.

At least for the moment, nobody has a MPP with anyone.

E_T

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by E_T
Personally and Professionally, Macross City is the best. This will also give that area a higher cultural output against Greece and for when we do go get Alex.

Bah! Nonsense!

Our capital is APOLYTON and APOLYTON it should remain! Are WE not "APOLYTON"? Are we not named after mighty "APOLYTON"? Is not our nation called "APOLYTON-ia"? Are not the g0dZ that have mercifully granted this civiliation its life and liberty "the gOdZ of APOLYTON"?

What, may I ask, have we fought these great wars of conquest for - taking over many inferior lands and bringing to them the enlightenment of APOLYTON - if now we are to disgrace this entire heritage by moving the seat of power away from glorious Apolyton and into the heathen lands we rightly conquered?

Will not the g0dZ be angered that we have forgotten our way? That we, in our thirst for bringing these alien peoples closer to ourselves will allow ourselves to be seperated from our tradition - to lose our way?

Forbid it, oh Great Banana! As the religious civilization that we are, we should remain true to our g0dZ and retain APOLYTON as our rightful seat of power - lest we tempt the punishment of our angry g0dZ!

[UnOrthOdOx]

I agree with Arnelos.


or at least rename whatever city Apolyton

[=OttomusCeasar=]

If we go with Macross City, will ET change our civilization's name to Macrosssissian? ANd then force us to call ourselves Macross Sissies?

Hey, I don't want to be referred to as a sissy! Let us stand up this "capital change by force" movement and be proud of our Apolytonian heritage.

(Darn, French trying to convert us to their sissy ways)

[GodKing]

Macross, as I have always thought would be best.

[Donegeal]

Once again, ET is attempting to force his will upon others. The Palace Location Commitee worked long and hard at deciding where things should be built. They already put up two polls to make the choice. Now ET is attempting to push both polls and all the work done by the commitee aside and to do his will.

This is a Democracy Game. The choice made by the people reguarding the Palace location was made long ago. Do not sucumb to the will of ET. Do not vote in this poll. It should not be considered valid or official.

"But the People have a right to change their mind."

This is a true statement. However, ET will re-poll and re-poll, and argue and argue until either he gets his way or he gets the power to do whatever he wants.

[Shiber]

We've found new information since the previous palace poll which has proven that the move to Timeline was a bad idea, thanks to E_T's spreadsheets. I think the people have a right to decide if they want to change their minds or not based on this new information.
I for one have changed my mind regarding this acute issue, and many other participants have expressed similar opinions in discussions held during the last week. It's our right to change our minds donegeal.

I'm sorry that we must disagree on such a fundamental issue.

[roadcage]

I admit to voting for Timeline in the original polls. Thanks to ET it is now clear to me that that was a mistake. Please vote in the poll for the non
Timeline option of your choice. My personal choice is to delay,.

[Donegeal]

No, Shiber, we don't disagree. Everyone has the right to change their minds, I even said so in my last post here. I also agree that our choice of Timeline was wrong. However, I am going to refer to this poll time and again just to make everone aware of the fact that ET is going to take this game over. He's going to post spreadsheet after spreadsheet and fact after fact until everyone thinks his ideas are best.

And he is quite good at it. He is quite the charismatic person. Sorta reminds me of a german fellow from back in the 1930's and 40's....

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by donegeal
Once again, ET is attempting to force his will upon others. The Palace Location Commitee worked long and hard at deciding where things should be built. They already put up two polls to make the choice. Now ET is attempting to push both polls and all the work done by the commitee aside and to do his will.

This is a Democracy Game. The choice made by the people reguarding the Palace location was made long ago. Do not sucumb to the will of ET. Do not vote in this poll. It should not be considered valid or official.

"But the People have a right to change their mind."

This is a true statement. However, ET will re-poll and re-poll, and argue and argue until either he gets his way or he gets the power to do whatever he wants.

While I happen to be aligned with you on this particular issue concerning not moving the palace to far-off Macross City, I believe your comments regarding E_T and his intentions certainly cross the line.

Re-polls are prefectly permitted under the CoL and indeed they are permitted for precisely the reason that E_T has submitted this repoll (as roadcage has argued) - that a move of the palace to Timeline would be disadvantageous. This is the height of being a RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN. Would we honestly prefer that E_T simply have not attempted to even bother to bring up the issue again in light of information that makes our earlier decision disadvantageous???

But that's now what you're really getting at with your attack on E_T, now is it? I suspect this attack has more to do with the campaign for Domestic Minister than it has much to do with this specific poll, the posting of which is clearly in the national interest.

That said, I happen to be on the same side of this specific issue as you and others - we should keep the palace in Apolyton (or at the very least keep it very nearby to Apolyton - in Mingapulco Province or cities diretly adjoining it).

[Shiber]

Originally posted by donegeal
And he is quite good at it. He is quite the charismatic person. Sorta reminds me of a german fellow from back in the 1930's and 40's....

NOW you've crossed the line.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by donegeal
And he is quite good at it. He is quite the charismatic person. Sorta reminds me of a german fellow from back in the 1930's and 40's....

Almight Banana!? Is there any depraved length you will NOT go to in order to attempt to slander E_T???

[roadcage]

I sense a court case brewing

[Donegeal]

What I was refering to is ET paricular path to power, not what his intentions are.

I am talking about him trying to charismaticly sway the opinion of a nation to a mistake. I was not accusing him of being that man or thinking like him. Some could undoutedly say the same thing about "a Texas fellow from around 2001 and 2002...." (as I am sure there are poeple who thought voting in Bush was a mistake. That he only won by winning votes because he was very charimatic during the last US presidential campaign).

[Shiber]

Charisma has nothing to do with the facts and figures that E_T has presented to us in his innovative () spreadsheets.
In any case, I don't see any reason of E_T trying to take over the game. He is one of the most hardworking citizens in this game, and though his outstanding participation might make it seem like he is trying to gain more power than he deserves he is actually being a responsible and devoted citizen.
I would be extremely surprised to find out that E_T actually has any ill intentions as you suggest.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by roadcage
I sense a court case brewing

I certainly hope that this issue will be resolved out of court. We
Besides, we don't want to turn into a nation of lawyers. (you see, it's ironic, because I'm a jew and this was kindof a Jewish joke... get it? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Uhh... nevermind.)

[UnOrthOdOx]

I just checked, the last poll was started 10-13, it ended 10-20, well over 21 days ago. If there is to be a court case, it should not be over E_T's right to start another poll on this subject, as he followed the repoll rules.

I choose not to comment on the other things.

[E_T]

Whoo, what a pot I've stirred.....

Donegeal, such comments. No, this would not be become a court issue, in any way, shape or form......And even though you've lapsed (because of PTW) your Pina Coloda RA position, I haven't made any moves to fire you, even now.

That said, I too had previously voted for Timelime. AT THE TIME, I wasn't fully aware of the complete aspects of the calculations for corruption, as I am now. I had thought that there was a middle ground where BOTH the Palace and the FP had overlaping influance and the corruption would be less in the middle areas. It wasn't until I had become MoCP that I had fully investigated the complete corruption issue. I had even asked Donegeal if he could try to work on a spreadsheet for me, while I was working on other things. He was unable to, because of not having a good mathamatical background and was sufficiently inexperianced with Excel to implement it ([shouting into the background] and one of Donegeal's claims is that I don't try to delegate some of my work[/shouting]).

After doing the initial spreadsheet, I was starting to have the feeling that we had made a mistake in our initial choice, but I didn't have actual verifiable facts, until I had just recently revamped my spreadsheet to include the FP. That's when the alarms started to go off and I had made my first posts about the issue and then provided the proof.

I have now left it up to the publics opinion to take this new information and make a new decision, based on the new facts. The final vote is up to them, I don't have any Brownshirts running around in the background. Nor have I fired anybody, just because they don't agree with the way that I've done somethings in their particular provences or that I might be wrong an any particular issue. As a matter of fact, I applude them, because that helps (at least I hope so) to keep me on my toes and keep aware of anything that I might have missed that has be already decided.

If I had wanted to take over this game, I'd just download the save and play it at home, without all of the headaches that would come from this position. Or I could cook up what ever information that I want the public to see, and then sway them via that kind of falsehood. The spreadsheets that I provide are for the publics benifit, so that they don't have to open the game every time that they want to know something about any issue that they might have. A Democracy runs best when the people are properly informed.

E_T

[GhengisFarb™]

Honestly, I don't want our capital city to be Macross City for the following reasons:

1) It's a French city.
2) It leaves the ENTIRE center of our empire out in the cold. (America's capital isn't centrally located.)
3) I don't really like the name Macross City.
and
4) It's French. (I can't stress that enough, I really don't like French things.)

The race is pretty close, its neck and neck and neck.

Now then, this thread is about moving the Palace, not who's running for what so we had better cool it before Ming sends some people to Mingapulco.

Ummm, that threat doesn't appear to hold as much bite here as most of us live in Mingapulco.........

[Meshelic]

I think Donegeal's bringing his alter-ego from the Glory of War team into Apolytonia! What witchery is this! He must be possessed....let us thus begin the 'cleansing' . muwahaha

Unorthodox's statement put it best:

I agree with Arnelos....
...or at least rename whatever city Apolyton...

[E_T]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Honestly, I don't want our capital city to be Macross City for the following reasons:

1) It's a French city.
2) It leaves the ENTIRE center of our empire out in the cold. (America's capital isn't centrally located.)
3) I don't really like the name Macross City.
and
4) It's French. (I can't stress that enough, I really don't like French things.)

The race is pretty close, its neck and neck and neck.

Now then, this thread is about moving the Palace, not who's running for what so we had better cool it before Ming sends some people to Mingapulco.

Ummm, that threat doesn't appear to hold as much bite here as most of us live in Mingapulco.........

There is NOT a single Frenchmen in Macross City, the Great Banana HAS prevailed over them. I beleave that he killed them off in the last wave of Jungle fever that washed through Macross City. What further proof do you need that it is HIS WILL for us to move our glorious Palace to that City.

Besides, City Names can be changed.

E_T

[Randolph]

Deleted to avoid embarrassment

Thanks Shiber