View Poll Results: New Guerrila Preferences
Cost: minus 1 shield 3 4.41%
Cost: minus 2 shields 8 11.76%
ADM: plus 1.1 to get 7.7.1 0 0%
ADM: plus 2.2 to get 8.8.1 3 4.41%
Keep Firaxis preference 18 26.47%
Stuff them with bananas and keep them out of the game 8 11.76%
ADM: 6.6.2, all terrain as roads 28 41.18%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old November 18, 2002, 11:06   #61
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Partial update
My bix file was blown away and is only partially rebuild, but that's another story.

How to set movement
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. increase movement to 2
2. do not set "all tiles as roads" in lower left attribute box.
3. Select no movement penalty in top middle box for:
-- mountains
-- jungles
-- hills

Unit does then move 2 tiles without any terrain limitations. Much more realistic than the 3 moves if count all tiles as roads.


Invisible & stealth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here ran out of time for testing. But with both invisible and stealth selected moving unit with AI city boundaries still results in challenge "your troops are harrassing our citizens". Can't recall if this is the same action if move a sub inside a city border. I thought it would not be challenged but it is so long since I did that, I am not sure on the AI normal reaction.

Hope to complete rebuilding bix file and complete testing during tonights game.

Yet to test:
1. do AI military seek out invisible units or ignore them?
2. do subs entering a city boundary elicit a border violation challenge by AI?
3. Is there any difference if just invisible is selected and not along with stealth.

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Old November 18, 2002, 11:55   #62
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Quote:
3. Select no movement penalty in top middle box for:
-- mountains
-- jungles
-- hills
(& Forests)
Quote:
2. do subs entering a city boundary elicit a border violation challenge by AI?
Subs will be challenged if they are spotted (i.e., by one of their subs or cruisers). I enjoy using subs/nuc subs exploring others' shorelines, and have not experienced subs being challenged in any other circumstances.

Last edited by Jaybe; November 18, 2002 at 12:00.
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Old November 18, 2002, 11:57   #63
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Stealth is only for aircraft. Once you move a "land submarine' into the territory of another civ it will eventually be detected (once a unit bumps into it). Once that happens the units owner will be identified if hidden nationality is not checked.
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Old November 18, 2002, 15:20   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
(& Forests)
European Guerilla from WW2 comes to my mind.
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Old November 18, 2002, 15:40   #65
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Under standard rules, I don't see the point of building any Guerrilas. Just upgrade your obsolete stone age / early middle age surviving units to them and use as cannon fooder.

I'd improve them by:

1. All terraign as roads. They are supposed to be able to outrun most units.

2. Invisiible. They are supposed to be able to hide out very well. (But perhaps give the underused Marines ability to detect invisible units.)

3. Hidden Nationality. Start ambusing each other's workers even at peace.

But stay with the base 1 movement point. With all terriagn as roads, they can already move 2 squares and pillage. With a base 2 movement + all as roads, they would have a 5 square pillage range.
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Old November 18, 2002, 16:25   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Under standard rules, I don't see the point of building any Guerrilas. Just upgrade your obsolete stone age / early middle age surviving units to them and use as cannon fooder.

I'd improve them by:

1. All terraign as roads. They are supposed to be able to outrun most units.

2. Invisiible. They are supposed to be able to hide out very well. (But perhaps give the underused Marines ability to detect invisible units.)

3. Hidden Nationality. Start ambusing each other's workers even at peace.

But stay with the base 1 movement point. With all terriagn as roads, they can already move 2 squares and pillage. With a base 2 movement + all as roads, they would have a 5 square pillage range.
Invisible sounds like a good preference change. Hidden nationality seems like it would also work. All terrain as roads sounds look powerful. I would think it would turn guerillas into human cavalry. No way can I imagine a guerilla as mobile as cavalry.

Best I would think is movement of 3: move, hit/pillage, run away. Be sure to turn off terrain movement penalties for: forest/jungle/mt/hills. When you add invisible and hidden nationality, they will be quite useful. Oh, be sure to make some units able to see these invisible guerillas or you could be up for some strange battles.

If you play an game with this prefence, let us all know:
1- how you like the edited guerilla, and
2- how the AI used the edited guerilla.

Thanks

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Old November 19, 2002, 16:18   #67
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Re: Partial update
Quote:
Originally posted by planetfall
My bix file was blown away and is only partially rebuild, but that's another story.

Yet to test:
Do AI military seek out invisible units or ignore them?
AI treats as normal units. If add hidden flag then AI will conduct search and destroy missions.



Quote:
Is there any difference if just invisible is selected and not along with stealth.

== PF
Not that I can find. Although some thought stealth would have an effect on land units, this flag seems to be ignored for land units.


BTW-- 2 movement really zips on own roads. That's 6 tiles. Thus sneak next to AI unit and wait. Attack next turn and then run 3 tiles away. Darn powerful.

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Old November 19, 2002, 18:01   #68
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Guerilla warfare i about surprise raids, minimizing casualties and retreating when you meet solid defense. Guerillas should use the defense bonus from the square they are on for attacking. A unit attacking from mountains/jungle etc. would be strong. Just like in real life.

They should have "always retreat" too!
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Old November 19, 2002, 18:44   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuckles
I think the only point to gorillas is if you don't have rubber. The game is over if you're ever without a rubber. At least with gorillas you have a chance to get some rubbers and maybe survive.
This post rates about an 87 on the unintentional comedy scale...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/021107.html
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Old November 19, 2002, 19:12   #70
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I have not found the gorillas yet are they part of the future tech? anyway I am too old to be concerned with rubbers.
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Old November 19, 2002, 19:21   #71
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another easter egg?
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Old November 20, 2002, 01:07   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
I have not found the gorillas yet are they part of the future tech? anyway I am too old to be concerned with rubbers.
you gotta always wear your rubbers... it doesnt matter how old you are, protect yourself!
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Old November 20, 2002, 10:23   #73
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Thank you for all your replies.

Here is the preference set I will try with next game:


Guerrila:
add: invisible
add: detect invisible
add: no terrain penalty- mts
add: no terrain penalty-- hills
add: no terrain penalty-- forest
add: no terrain penalty-- jungle
Increase movement from 1 to 2


Infantry:
add: detect invisible

Mechs:
add: detect invisible.




Should be interesting. Tanks and MA won't be able to see guerrila's.
They will need mechs, inf, guerrilas in area to locate guerrilas.

If anything interesting results from preference changes, I will let you know.

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Old December 2, 2002, 11:27   #74
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CAUTION: Guerrilla with discussion consensus of: 6.6.2, invisible, all terrain as grass UNBALANCES game.

FYI. Playing a game with the concensus values has severe problems:

1. armies of guerrilla's built by AI
2. guerrilla's used as super marines
3. guerrilla's defeat tanks 1/5 or 1/4 times.
4. few infantry are built.


Guerrilla's close unit review
The units close to the guerrilla in characteristics are:


Musketman 60s 2.4.1
Knight 70s 4.3.2
Cav 80s 6.3.3
Rifleman 80s 4.6.1
Guerrilla 90s 6.6.2; invisible, all terrain as grass
Infantry 90s 6.10.1
Paratrooper 100s 6.8.1
Marine 100s 8.6.1



rebalanced Guerrilla unit values
If adding 1) invisible, and 2) movement of two to emulate real guerrilla's the firaxis A.D of 6.6.x is too strong.

What do you think of 70s 5.2.2 ?
COST
70 s -- Guerrillas are cheap units buildable by any civ. Don't need horses as Knight/Cav. Don't need group defense training of Rifleman and Infantry.

OFFENSE/Attack
5 -- Slightly more powerful than knight as later age military unit. Not as powerful as infantry or cavalry. Also less powerful than a paratrooper.

DEFENSE
2 -- Defense is not in pitched battles but in running away. Movement of 2 gives run away ability after attack. Unlike the Knight or cav units, guerrilla does not have retreat ability so there is a real risk in building too many of these units.

MOVEMENT
2 -- all terrain as grass. Would like to restrict movement to 1 tile for landings from coast, but don't know how we could preference that.


Comments??

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Old December 2, 2002, 11:53   #75
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This is what I've done in my own personal mod:

Warrior-->Swordsman-->Man-at-Arms (Medieval Infantry)-->Minuteman (Colonial Musketman graphic)-->Freedom Fighters (Guerrilla)-->National Guards (new APC graphic).

This upgrade path is the "poor man's" (at least from Minuteman on) attack/defense units when they don't have the resources for the better units or they need to build quick cheap units (especially in those far away cities).

Regular units path: Spearman-->Phalanx-->Pikeman-->Musket Infantry (Napoleonic Inf graphic)-->Rifleman-->Infantry-->Mech Inf

It works splendidly.

Just a thought. It's pretty cool.
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Old December 2, 2002, 12:13   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
This is what I've done in my own personal mod:

Warrior-->Swordsman-->Man-at-Arms (Medieval Infantry)-->Minuteman (Colonial Musketman graphic)-->Freedom Fighters (Guerrilla)-->National Guards (new APC graphic).

This upgrade path is the "poor man's" (at least from Minuteman on) attack/defense units when they don't have the resources for the better units or they need to build quick cheap units (especially in those far away cities).


It works splendidly.

Just a thought. It's pretty cool.
Interesting. I don't know how to create custom graphics or add new units yet.

What are your S-A.D.M. values for:

Freedom Fighter?

Nat'l Guards?

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Old December 5, 2002, 00:45   #77
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I say make them interchangeable with workers. In any city you have a barracks you could upg your workers to guerillas for say 50-70 gold each then when you didnt need the guerillas anymore you could change them back to workers for 20-30 gold. I wouldnt mess with movement or attack any. N the ideas about making em good in jungles well thats a good idea but that late in the game there aint much rainforrest left in the game so to speak.

Other idea is make it so that guerillas can do work that workers do but at only 1/4th the speed. This way they would be more useful but no too useful.

As for making them no maintnace cost I dont like that idea as it seems to make me think of doing something crazy like making endless hords of the little guys I can just see someone making 100s of them n crashing the game.
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Old December 5, 2002, 01:22   #78
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Thats actually an interesting idea, though i'm not sure if you could make them downgradeable to workers again. Maybe having it with some of this fancy abilitys, but make it cost 1 pop point. Since it is essentially citizens up in arms it would make sense. But i'd prefer maybe an 8/6/1,all terrain as roads,invisible or hidden nationality instead of invisible. This would be better then upgrading and forking over cash(civs without rubber probably don't have alot anyway), and it would help to balance the unit more. Could decrease its cost to 80 in light of pop cost also perhaps? In my current game they're an 8/6/1,all terrain as roads. Its not up to modern age yet so I haven't seen the AI use them, but i'm sure they will since rubber will be scarce.

In reguards to them being that strong though i've taken unit values from others mods and marines are 10/6/1, paratroopers 8/8/1, Infantry still at 6/10/1. Gives everything a more balance feel and still provides some use for units after Tanks.
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Old December 5, 2002, 07:43   #79
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I think the guerilla unit is it stands has a place in the game, it just has the wrong name. Really it represents militia or paramilitaries for civs that don't have the resources to build proper military units (think of a bunch of half trained locals running around with AK47's) and makes sense in the upgrade path.

Proper guerillas are a different issue. I decided to try and tackle several issues at once. I am trying to create a duplicate of the guerilla with the same stats but invisible and hidden nationality and only available to expansionist civs as well as the current unit available to everyone.

The idea is that this gives a late game benefit to the expansionist trait and allows those civs (who are mostly pretty aggressive) to harass the human player. I expect other AI civs to catch these modded guerillas as they move normal units around a lot. For human players marines and paratroopers are now 8.8.1 and see invisible so they can be used for counter insurgency operations. Hopefully this will make them more useful.
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Old December 5, 2002, 09:23   #80
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I've found making Guerillas 6.6.2 all terrain as grass is adequate. I don't like the idea of making them invisible/unflagged... seems way too unbalancing. And rather than lower their attack/defense, I bumped up the attack values of infantry, paratroopers and marines by +2 each for my mod. Seems to be working well (for both me and the AI).
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Old December 5, 2002, 11:24   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by planetfall


Interesting. I don't know how to create custom graphics or add new units yet.
Go to the Unit Graphics forum of the Civfanatics website. There's a wealth of information on adding unit graphics to your game --not to mention there are hundreds of new user-made graphics to choose from.

Quote:
What are your S-A.D.M. values for:

Freedom Fighter?

Nat'l Guards?

== PF
Well, I would tell you, but since I've change the stats on almost every one of my units, it wouldn't make sense in the context of the original game. Basically, the Nat'l Guard unit is a cheaper/weaker version of the Mech Inf. The Freedom Fighter has been roughly kept in its relative position in stats.

I REALLY wish Firaxis had kept the Civ2 thing of Partisans popping out of a city that was taken over. Why they didn't include that awesome feature is absolutely beyond me.
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Old December 5, 2002, 11:32   #82
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My idea was what I thought would be best for Civ3. Frankly I feel Civ3 is set up in such a way that in cannot have guerilla units and realisticly represent them in game.

If it where up to me guerillas would work like espenoge missions. You would pick a civ that u want to cause some hurt or slow down. You would choose to use guerilla forces to do this. The guerillas them selves would be like barbs you hired armd with assorted weapons so ADM would varry based on how much gold you forked over to give them weapons. The guerillas would be unable to cap citys for you but could steal money n trash improvments if they moved into a city. You also would not be able to directly control them insted you would select a 15-20 hex size area that they would operate in, and I have to go take care of some stuff so Ill finnish later. I just hope everyone got the idea of what I would make of them if it was up to me.
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Old December 6, 2002, 00:02   #83
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I think the whole swordsman upgrade path was just thrown together with leftover parts that never made it into the original game. What's with the medieval infantry? 4/2/1? Why bother? that is only one attack better than a swordsman and no better than the Persian Immortals. Then you go to the guerilla, which is another over-priced and weak unit.

I don't see why swordsmen don't eventually become musketmen, with or without medieval infantry. Probably because swordsmen are offensive and musketmen are defensive, but that is no reason to ignore the obvious upgrade path. I thought musketmen had a curiously low attack value anyway, so I raised it to 4 gave them the offense flag, and made medieval infantry upgrade to them.

I think the guerrilla unit was probably designed as the Civ3 equivalent to Civ2's partisans, but the game designers decided to leave it out. Anyway I think it is strange that a regular military unit like medieval infantry would upgrade to a paramilitary unit like a guerilla. That's why I used the guerilla graphic for something else: a special forces unit. I gave it 10/10/1, all as road, amphibious (Seals), and air drop (Green Berets). The cost is a hefty 150 sheilds so that the player nor the AI can go crazy with them. I toyed with the idea of making them invisible or hidden nationality, but I figured that would probably blast the game play to smithereens as the AI either went nuts building them or couldn't deal with them.

But then I raised the prices by large amounts on most of the better armor, naval, and air units. Why would anyone buy a Marine when you can get a tank for the same investment? Tanks now cost 160 shields in my game and Modern Armor is 260 shields. If you look at the stats, that is merely proportional to their strength. It also adds realism. Armor is expensive and most armies are heavy on the infantry with proportionally less armor and air power. Besides, your shield production in cities late in the game is far more than when you were making knights and cavalry. Even at those costs, you will still be able to make too many of them.
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Old December 6, 2002, 10:06   #84
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I toyed with the idea of making them invisible or hidden nationality, but I figured that would probably blast the game play to smithereens as the AI either went nuts building them or couldn't deal with them.

I've edited Civ3 scenarios to include Mercenaries, they have hidden flags, as powerful as paratroopers, (same graphic too) and pre-req /Flight. The AI seems to use them alright, even 'cleverly', so I don't think hidden ationality would be a problem with your guerrillas.

Having sed that- I disagree with reping special forces, Espionage covers that lot, GBerets could be considered a sub-set of a marine or infantry unit, not a unit in themselves, I think of the infantry unit as being a Division. Repping a Division of special-forces is... Googleplex. Why not just make Guerrillas a little more powerful- and a lot cheaper, and upgrade to infantry, pre-req Replacable Parts, so you can't build em if you have rubber.

I say this because ALL must be like ME, join the hegemon of MEism! Do things My Way!!!
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Old December 6, 2002, 10:14   #85
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Originally posted by problem_child I say this because ALL must be like ME, join the hegemon of MEism! Do things My Way!!!
Thet's the best thing with civ 3. Everyone can play the game THEIR way.
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Old December 6, 2002, 11:04   #86
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Should it be Guerrilla or Guerilla or Guerrila?
Got tired of typing the "same word" three differnt ways. Which is the correct spelling?

Topic title: "guerrila" is misspelled, the 'l' character needs to be repeated.

Webster & American Heritage Dictionaries:

Guerrilla-- standard spelling
"any member of a small defensive force of irregular soldiers, usually volunteers, making surprise raise, esp., behind lines of invading enemy army"--Webster

"member of an irregular military force that uses hasassing tactics against an enemy army"--Amer Heritage

Hum, defensive force making offensive raids.
Offense flag? Defense flag? Both? Chew on that awhile.

Guerilla-- alternative spelling.

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Old December 6, 2002, 11:12   #87
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Musketmen shouldnt have good attack value. I mean in midevil times for the most part Muskets where at best semi effective weapons. I would not use them except for defensive roles n I wouldnt use them on open ground. They would be best kept behind walled citys n in fortresses. The problem with Muskets was the slow reload times and the fact they where unaccurate at best. Lets not forget if the weapon got damp you where screwd. I myself have fired muzzle loaders that use black powder. These would comapre to those used in the Civil War. Let me tell you in go back another 300-400 years from that time and you are talking some very uneffective hand cannon weapons that shouldnt even be considered anything close to guns. The biggest edge the weapon had was the noise factor which could demoralize hostile forces.

What it all boils down to is if knights attacked a force of Musketmen on open ground or even if the musketmen where in hills fact is the knights would roll over them. The Musketmen would MAYBE have time to get 2 shots off once the knights where withen effective range before they rode over the top of em.
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Old December 6, 2002, 16:43   #88
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I am not looking to start a historical argument but musketmen came about for two reasons. Firstly they were a lot quicker to train than the years it took to use the longbow effectively and secondly they were effective.

Battle of Pavia 1525. After that every serious military power in europe switched to arquebus/musket as the primary infantry weapon where they could.

After consideration I am not inclined to change the guerilla in the game much at all, only make them cheaper as I think a replacement unit should be 150% to 200% of the shield cost of the unit it replaces.
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Old December 6, 2002, 17:04   #89
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Partisans really didn't do much in Civ II. They usually got killed before doing anything, so I just do not see why they are needed, right now.

This is not Civ II, but talking about it may be!
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Old December 6, 2002, 19:05   #90
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Here's an un-PC thought: Give Guerillas hidden nationality and perhaps the 2-move, all-as-roads (but no ADM changes or invisible or what have you), and extend the line to the Modern Age with a "Terrorist" unit. Similar function, higher offense rating? If only ground units could precision-bomb somehow, you could make targeted strikes on enemy cities (with the requisite chance of failure or capture). It's sort of like espionage, but sort of... not.
Nakar Gabab is offline  
 

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