My two cents - Page 2

rah · November 12, 2002, 11:52

I love the way people assume that Mods are watching every second of the day, and if we're not, we're not being fair.

We do have real lives.

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 11:55

The question is why? Such threads may degenerate into nothing more than mudslinging, but I dont see any other threads that attempt to describe good and bad impressions and events of PtW from day 1. All I see are 'PtW is good vs PtW is crap' threads.

Ming · November 12, 2002, 11:59

Your thread was really no different than the many, many, many, "look at my opinion of the game" threads.

Your opinions are welcome, just post them in a current thread. Is there really that great of a need to have it in your own personal thread?

Anaximander · November 12, 2002, 12:08

Well, first of all I would like to say that I do not hate Civ III nor do I hate the PTW expansion pack. Nor do I consider myself a ranter. Furthermore, I fully respect the fact that Apolyton is a privately owned entity and that posting here is a privlege. I am also greatful that the moderators unlocked this thread, as it shows they are truly intreasted in discusing a possiable problem in the Apolyton community. Furthermore, I am glad that this thread was moved to this forum, as what I am addressing is not a gaming issue as it is more of a community issue.

I am greatful that the moderators are on the lookout for mindless ranting. Such threads accomplish nothing. However, I still firmly believe that ArmaGeddin's thread was a good thread, and that it should not have been locked. That is why I posted this thread. To raise attention to this in the community. We are a community, right? That's what I have been led to believe. The fact is that as a community we should discuss all aspects of the game, both positive and negative. So what if there is more than one thread? That just means that there is more than one opinion. If the persons opinion is valid then the thread has a right to exist. Let the people decide if they want to discuss that particular topic. If it somthing of importance people will post, if not it will get one or two replies and then quickly fade to the back pages of the fourm.

I ask our beloved moderators to have some faith in the community, and to have some faith in the "Free Market of Ideas", which I believe these forums represent. Dissenting opinions do not go away by ignoring them. Instead, you must deal with them out in the opinion. It is only there that issues can truly be resolved.

Thank you.

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 12:11

But my question still stands, which thread?

OK the problems I've encountered with 1.04 that werent there with 1.29 could go into the 1.04 bugs thread, but installation problems and random crashing isnt really a 'bug and I'm not looking for help so it doesnt fit in the help category. So, I'm at a loss.

I'd also need to start different threads for each improvement over CIV3, Hmmm....

Ming · November 12, 2002, 12:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Anaximander
Dissenting opinions do not go away by ignoring them. Instead, you must deal with them out in the opinion. It is only there that issues can truly be resolved.

You would think from reading this that dissenting opinion isn't allowed. As anybody can see from looking throught the Civ III forums, that is not the case.

It is your opinion that everybody should be allowed their own personal "look at my opinion of the game" thread.

This runs contary to the opinion of the owners of this private site. While the opinions being posted in these many threads are valid, there is really no need to have so many different threads on why they like or do not like the game. There are more than enough threads already where people can post their opinions of the game.

If everybody was allowed their own "personal, my opinion is so important that it needs it own thread" threads, thats about all their would be based on the number of people starting them. It would choke out other threads that discuss other issues.

So again... it's not the opinions that are being closed down... just the many individual threads. You are welcome to post your opinons in threads already started to discuss such things.

Alex · November 12, 2002, 12:43

Quote:

While the opinions being posted in these many threads are valid, there is really no need to have so many different threads on why they like or do not like the game. There are more than enough threads already where people can post their opinions of the game.

Hit the nail in the head.

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 12:44

Virtually everything on the site is an opinion so everything starts as "personal, my opinion is so important that it needs it own thread". If the thread is interesting others will comment and it survives if its boring it dies a quick death.

rah · November 12, 2002, 12:53

Think of it as a newspaper front page. Too many headlines stating almost the same thing will push other important headlines off the front page, where almost 75% of readers will never see it. A little order and editing is critical to keep people informed.

Rasbelin · November 12, 2002, 13:00

Rah has the clue, IMHO. The mods are here for maintaining a good order on the forums they govern. As I said, a society or community needs someone to enforce the mutually agreed rules so that the community could work. This is a very basic issue that you encounter in your real life too. of course we could have total anarchy and the "power and chaos" mentality if you want, but that wouldn't be constructive. So some order and disciplin is IMHO good to have as there's ~24 000 persons involved. I've seen several forums with real mayhem (e.g. Radio NRJ's forums, MTV3 Internet's news discussion forums and the forums of the Otava Institute; not to mention a few related to politics), so I would say that it's just good when someone is every now and then checking out what's really going on.

Ming · November 12, 2002, 13:09

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Virtually everything on the site is an opinion so everything starts as "personal, my opinion is so important that it needs it own thread". If the thread is interesting others will comment and it survives if its boring it dies a quick death.

One difference is that every thread don't have "My experience" or "My opinon" in the title

The real problem is that there are far too many "MY" threads, and they are indeed making it difficult to discuss game related issues.

Again... there are already more than enough threads to discuss opinions of the game. As far as specific bugs, there is a thread for that. That is the thread the people from Firaxis are reading regularly. The threads they probably aren't looking at are threads that have "MY" in the title...

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 13:20

I suppose its true that with the number of threads it must be difficult to do more than scan for (unsuitable) titles and sometimes do a quick read. I think that the mods do a good job for the most part in regulating the threads (except in closing my thread of course

) and they are pretty impartial on most 'fanboy/whiner-type' issues.

Ming · November 12, 2002, 13:28

SpencerH... I know people hate having their threads closed/deleted. I feel the same way on other sites that I post at. If it was only one or two threads, nobody would care. But you have to admit that it is getting out of hand.

The real trick is to name your thread in such a way that we don't catch it... and that people from Firaxis might read it. Be creative, because "HEY FIRAXIS..." in the title is also raising a red flag

rah · November 12, 2002, 13:31

You got that straight SpencerH.
When I started moding th OTF, I actually thought I could read every post.

There just isn't enough time in the day, or the desire on my part. Just like my job in Market research, sampling, and looking for outliers is the only way. If you want to stay below the radar on an issue, a good title is the best way to go. (that and not having a reputation

)
Volume will always catch up to you also.

RAH

Darn, ming beat me to it on the crosspost. We're not twins, nawwwwww.

Anaximander · November 12, 2002, 13:35

I have to aggree with Spencer here. I am all for the moderators lock posts that do nothing to add to the community. It's when they lock posts that have somthing real to offer that I take issue. Spencer is also correct in pointing out that every thread is really a "my opinion" thread. It is only after enough of these "my opinion threads" are created that someone comes along and puts togeather a comprehensive thread that covers all the aspects of the topic. But even that thread is still a "my opinion" thread!!!

Quote:

One difference is that every thread don't have "My experience" or "My opinon" in the title

This is not a good reason for closing threads and if this is your only reason for closing a thread, then you shouldn't do it. The locking of threads should be based upon the content of the thread, not because of the title. I ask you Ming, if ArmaGeddin had entered a different title for his thread would you still have locked it? According to your quote above the title was the deciding factor. If it was, then I would argue that it was a mistake. If it wasn't, then what exactly about that thread doomed it to be locked?

Ming · November 12, 2002, 13:47

Anaximander... you seem to have missed the point.

First,
As pointed out in the earlier posts, it is indeed impossible to read every post in every thread. By using the words MY, ME, MINE, or I in the thread title, it makes it easier for us to spot another personal ME thread.

Second,
One more time since it seems like you are ignoring the fact that it isn't the content that is being closed, it's the number of threads that is being closed. He could post the same thing in one of the already open threads discussing opinions of the game. What difference does it really make if it is posted along with other opinons vs that of it being in a seperate thread? The answer is NO DIFFERENCE!

You are welcome to your opinion. But it is the opinion of the owners of this site that we should limit the many similiar threads to give threads that have a real difference an opportunity to flourish as well. I'm sorry that you don't like that... But that's the way it is.

Anaximander · November 12, 2002, 14:11

You see now Ming I think that your missing the point. First of all, if the moderators are so swamped that good threads are being dismissed and bad ones falling through the cracks then we obviously need more moderators.

Secondly, EVERY THREAD IS A PERSONAL OPINION THREAD!!!! No matter how you may phrase the title, unless you are expressing a deductivly valid fact that fits one of the deductivly valid forms, you are expressing a subjective opinion. Would you please just concede that every thread is an opinion thread so the discussion may move on from that point?

Once you accept that every thread is personal opinion, we can begin discusing which of those opinions should and shouldn't be heard. Now, if we closed down every thread that made refrence to somthing being discussed in another thread then we would have to close down almost every thread on the forums. Now, I really don't think that anyone wants nor expects that. So which threads do you close? On numerious occasions I have ponted out that most of the threads that were locked were junk and should have been locked. It is only when threads that have good content are locked that I take issue. The fact is the only "redundent" threads you were locking were ones that were critical of PTW. If you are going to have a policy, please enforce it equally.

By the way Ming, you never answered my question, if ArmaGeddin had entitled his post differently, would you have locked it?

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 14:21

Quote:

EVERY THREAD IS A PERSONAL OPINION THREAD!!!!

shouting wont make your point valid

not every thread is about the general opinion and experiences of someone with the game.
lets take some examples of the NOT PERSONAL threads:
-Crash Civilization3X.exe : a solution
-Hotseat is pathetic
-Not Constantinople
-Will other civs attitude be influenced when you attack someone they don't know?
-Very Annoying Bug

etc etc etc

Ming · November 12, 2002, 14:21

Sigh... One last time... it's not the content, it's the number of threads.

And to answer your question, YES... it might have taken more time to notice it, but the outcome would have been the same.

As one of the Owners, MarkG, pointed out, there are already many threads to discuss opinions of the game...

Quote:

in the first two pages of the forusm there are plenty of general discussion/opinion threads
- Give PTW a chance!
- Kudos to Gamespot
- Is PTW worth 20 bucks?
- Fanboys and Whiners
- is ptw actualy worth it????
- What do we think of PTW now?
- Civ3 (PTW) is UNPLAYABLE in its current state

I see two of those threads that would have been more than appropriate to discuss the issues being raised in that thread.

There are many other valid topics that are being discussed that do need seperate threads... mostly things that are game related, and not about what your opinion of the game is, is it worth it, or are people returning it.

So in conclusion, if you don't like the way it is being handled, you are more than welcome to find a site that is more to your liking... because while you are welcome to your opinion, this isn't a Democracy.

H Tower · November 12, 2002, 14:27

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
I love the way people assume that Mods are watching every second of the day, and if we're not, we're not being fair.

We do have real lives.

That's completely untrue! Ming is here ALL the time, and he follows every post I make, just waiting to nail me for spamming.

My personal conspiracy theory is that they made me a quasi mod for the civ2 game is that they hoped it would stop my spamming

Who was it who earlier said that the mods close stuff because it went against their personal view? that's total crap. complete trash.

-Jrabbit · November 12, 2002, 14:43

Seems pretty normal to me...

New game is released
-->> What I Think threads proliferate
-->> Thread control implemented
-->> What I Thinkers whine about lack of headlines
-->> This thread appears in Community.

What's really interesting is the number of ppl whining about snuffed threads who never go back to the alleged point of it all -- discussing the new game.

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 14:55

Some more normal....

Someone who hasnt read the any of the threads in question commenting on them.

Rasbelin · November 12, 2002, 14:58

And that reminds me of the silly "+1 game" it somehow reflects. The actual issue is lost among spam.

neotek · November 12, 2002, 16:45

Interesting discussion.

One thing:

"Hotseat is pathetic" sure sounds like an opinion lol.

Subjective use of an adjective in the title, tsk tsk I am amazed it didn't get locked.

But it does seem Ming did make an attempt to being more fair around here lately and I will acknowledge it here... he just locked a perfectly good, but 'defending ptw' thread, as in omigosh one with a positive slant toward firaxis. He applied the same criteria he and Mark had been claiming they operated under but never exercised until now.

So hooray you see I think that's a step in the right direction. Oh darn I shouldn't have said "I think" but that was just "my take on it"

lol eat it.

Neotek

neotek · November 12, 2002, 16:52

oh and for the record, the "hotseat is pathetic" thread did have insightful content and did deserve to be open.

I was just pointing out its opinionated title to show that like a previous poster said, almost everything in these forums is an opinion.

Someone else could have had those same exact hotseat problems and from their perspective posted their opinion that "Oh great! how creative of firaxis to include this nice easter egg espionage feature that allows us to see the whole map of our opponent" LOL, to each his own.

Neotek

look at my cool and obnoxiously sarcastic little gay emoticon weeeee.

Alexander's Horse · November 12, 2002, 16:54

How about a sticky "Before you post read this" thread at the top of the PTW forum?

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 17:30

Quote:

"Hotseat is pathetic" sure sounds like an opinion

but isnt yet another general "my 5 minutes review" thread. it addresses a specific issue....

Quote:

look at my cool and obnoxiously sarcastic little gay emoticon weeeee

you know, you seem to have some issues with gays. you need to check that...

neotek · November 12, 2002, 17:53

Lol yes I do Mark thanks for noticing. But comeon you've got to admit that out of all the emoticons that is definitely the most 'precocious' haha.

Though this one runs a close second, and he IS purple

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 18:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
but isnt yet another general "my 5 minutes review" thread. it addresses a specific issue....

So if I start threads dealing with the 15 or so issues (good and bad) that I have with the game so far, thats better than one thread that gets updated and commented on by other players?

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 18:03

are you saying that you have issues on 15 topics that there are NO threads about already?