My two cents

Anaximander · November 12, 2002, 03:19

To begin with I want to say that I love the Apolyton community and the Civ franchise.

However, I have been shocked by the number of locked threads in the Play the World forum.

Now, I have looked at these and most of them were junk or were items that had been rehashed a thousand times (although I do think that the car analogy has SOME merit) and kudos to the moderators for taking out the trash. So when I logged in tonight I wasn't supprised to find another locked thread. I opened it up out of curiosity, and to my great suprise I was greeted by a rather insightful, well written post about how the SP version of PTW was great but the MP was crap. Nothing new, I know, but it was still a good post. Futhermore, the posts that followed it carried on a professional discusion with out falling into the usual patterns of rants. This thread was "My Review of
PTW" by ArmaGeddin

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67368

This ticked me off....maybe it is the philosopher in me but this struck me as totally unfair. What especially got me was Mings reason for shutting down the thread.

Quote:

Sigh... we really don't need another new thread for each members "personal" review. There are many current threads where you are free to post your opinions... good or bad.

First of all, everyone here is entitled to have his or her opinion of the game. Furthermore, they should also be allowed to post there opinion anywhere they please. This is the PTW forum and ArmaGeddin posted a PTW related thread. His only crime appears to be that he had a negative opinion.

Second of all, if the moderators are going to use the argument "There is already a thread dealing with this" to lock negative threads, they should do the same thing to positive threads. I don't know how many threads I have seen that have asked the same questions over and over again. Not to mention the fact that topics like corruption, culture, AI deficiences, etc... have all been run into the ground. Yet, that dosn't stop people from opening up new threads about them!!! However, if the moderators locked these threads like they locked negative threads then almost every thread would be locked, because I am sure that somewhere there is a thread that discusses just about any topic you would want to discuss.

It is my opinion that the moderators in this forum are out of line. I feel that they are targeting negative threads. I do not know why they are doing this, nor will I speculate as to what their motives are. Instead I will ask them to please stop so everyone may be able to voice their opinion. It is everyones right to have an opinion both positive AND negative. Do you think that by ignoring these negative threads that the disenters will go away? Of course they won't!!! I have always believed that both sides of an argument should be allowed to speak. Why do you want to deny that to us? The dissenters paid good money for the game, just like the fans and so their opinion is just as valid, even if it is a negative one.

notyoueither · November 12, 2002, 03:30

The mods may be a tad bit quick on the trigger with some of them.

I notice though that they are mostly the rants of the newbies who feel that it is their right to vent when ever and where ever they want. Let me preempt Ming. This is not where ever. This is a privately owned site. I think the owners want to avoid this forum becoming a cess pool of flame wars between the flamers of civ and the fan boys (hi). That is their right as they own it.

They repeatedly make the point that there are other threads to continue in. Fair I think, even if they could have left a few of the locked threads open, IMHO.

werdhertz · November 12, 2002, 03:31

Ive noticed quite a few posts here and as well at civfanatics.com closed because of the moderators personal views on something... oh well i guess, to bad there wasnt a democracy tech

notyoueither · November 12, 2002, 03:33

Quote:

Originally posted by werdhertz
Ive noticed quite a few posts here and as well at civfanatics.com closed because of the moderators personal views on something... oh well i guess, to bad there wasnt a democracy tech

Privately owned clubs are not democracies. This is a privately owned club. The owners are free to restrict behaviour in any way they see fit. Free Market Capitalism 101.

asleepathewheel · November 12, 2002, 03:43

amusing thread

This is a private forum, and as such the owners can lock or delete the redundant threads (such as this one) as they see fit. Don't like it, create your own board. Think Apolyton's owners are schills for Firaxis? Create your own board where you can go on these rants ad nauseum.

Your argument about threads on corruption and culture are completely asinine. In fact, I'm embarrassed for you, that you raise that as an argument against locking rant threads. I think you are failing to see the purpose of this website.

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 04:05

first of all, since you're posting about moderators' decisions, you should be posting in the apolyton forum not here.

Quote:

everyone here is entitled to have his or her opinion of the game.

everyone is entitled(cause we like it that way not cause the bible or the american goverment says so) to ask for an account and the privilidge to participate. we're nice people and give that privilidge for free to everyone. and it is our privilidge to take back at any time

Quote:

Furthermore, they should also be allowed to post there opinion anywhere they please.

not really.
if we believe we have too many threads of one kind, we have every right to contain people into posting in a specific amount of threads.

more in a while as i move this thread...

Ming · November 12, 2002, 04:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Anaximander
First of all, everyone here is entitled to have his or her opinion of the game. Furthermore, they should also be allowed to post there opinion anywhere they please. This is the PTW forum and ArmaGeddin posted a PTW related thread. His only crime appears to be that he had a negative opinion.

This is a private site... you are members, not co owners.
His "crime" was that he started yet ANOTHER personal "look at my opinion of the game thread".
Negative opinions are fine... as you can see for yourself, there are more than enough of them being posted.

Quote:

Second of all, if the moderators are going to use the argument "There is already a thread dealing with this" to lock negative threads, they should do the same thing to positive threads. I don't know how many threads I have seen that have asked the same questions over and over again. Not to mention the fact that topics like corruption, culture, AI deficiences, etc... have all been run into the ground. Yet, that dosn't stop people from opening up new threads about them!!! However, if the moderators locked these threads like they locked negative threads then almost every thread would be locked, because I am sure that somewhere there is a thread that discusses just about any topic you would want to discuss.

I guess it's because most threads we close are titled "Look at me... This is my opinion of the game", which are much easier to spot

Quote:

It is my opinion that the moderators in this forum are out of line. I feel that they are targeting negative threads. I do not know why they are doing this, nor will I speculate as to what their motives are. Instead I will ask them to please stop so everyone may be able to voice their opinion. It is everyones right to have an opinion both positive AND negative.

First... you are welcome to your opinion. However, it is irrelevent. You don't set policy for this site, and aren't asked to enforce it. You are a member. Period. If you don't like it, you are welcome to post somewhere else.

Again... this isn't a democracy, it's a private site.

Quote:

Do you think that by ignoring these negative threads that the disenters will go away? Of course they won't!!! I have always believed that both sides of an argument should be allowed to speak. Why do you want to deny that to us?

Both sides are allowed to speak. If our purpose was to stop negative posting, we would be doing a miserable job of it. Take a look around... there are plenty of negative threads. We just don't think it's needed for everybody to start their own personal rant threads. It's easy enough to find a negative thread to post your opinon in.

And one last important thing... If you have a complaint about the mods or what you perceive as forum policy, feel free to send a PM or email to the owners of this site.
Have a nice day...

*and added later... cross posting with MarkG is just tons of fun

*

Rasbelin · November 12, 2002, 04:29

Maybe a good rule of thumb...

Dan, Markos and Ming are the "gods" of Apolyton and their word is final and the law we obey. The one who whines or becomes stubborn, will face a few weeks in a concentration camp called "Mingapulco."

Maybe that's a good way to put it.

Oh, one more thing...

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 04:29

our aim here is to serve people who are interested in the game. but above those, we put the part of those people who also PLAY the game. we cant have a forum full of rants or a forum where each personal opinion on the game is a separate thread. not even the people who want to post their overall opinion of the game are served better with tenths of similar threads

in the first two pages of the forusm there are plenty of general discussion/opinion threads
- Give PTW a chance!
- Kudos to Gamespot
- Is PTW worth 20 bucks?
- Fanboys and Whiners
- is ptw actualy worth it????
- What do we think of PTW now?
- Civ3 (PTW) is UNPLAYABLE in its current state

i would say they are enough and are hard to get missed by someone wanting to gather opinions about the game before buying it.

but there are also the people who DO have the game and want help and discussion on specific issues

btw, funny that you mentioned corruption and culture as there has been TONS of discussion on these two issues, discussion that lead to changes in the game. but discussion, not rants and trolls...

/me is looking forward to the next neotek thread....

Jon Shafer · November 12, 2002, 04:33

Wow, this thread just refuses to die.

While at first it may seem like "hey they're trying to mute us", if you take a look you'll see that the entire PTW forum is swamped with "I hate PTW" threads, you don't even need to look to find them.

It would be kind of like me starting a "Why Markos is My God" thread while Rasbey starts one called "Why Markos is My Deity", when we both know that only one thread is necassary for the discussion of the topic.

Rasbelin · November 12, 2002, 04:44

Trip, are you suggesting that we should start a thread like that?

Ming · November 12, 2002, 04:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
While at first it may seem like "hey they're trying to mute us", if you take a look you'll see that the entire PTW forum is swamped with "I hate PTW" threads, you don't even need to look to find them.

As I said... if our mission was to not allow negative posts about PTW... we are indeed doing a terrible job

Jon Shafer · November 12, 2002, 04:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
As I said... if our mission was to not allow negative posts about PTW... we are indeed doing a terrible job

Of course, but you're one of the forum N-zi's.

Quote:

Trip, are you suggesting that we should start a thread like that?

Maybe so...

(+1)

Robert Plomp · November 12, 2002, 05:21

I tried and I tried, but I can't find any good reason to disagree with Markos / Ming

The only conclusion is that they are right, eventhough that might be hard to accept.

All those I-hate-PTW rants (simple I-hate-civ3 rants, but then replace civ3 with PTW) are boring and reproducing the same arguments.

And it's true, there are topics that are reposted all the time, but I'm sure that if all anti-PTW rants have fallen to page 3, nobody will close a fresh new rant.

Last but not least, I really really want to be able to open / close threads, post after close, and all that. What if someone gave that to me

redstar1 · November 12, 2002, 05:27

The Admin giveth, and the Admin taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Admin......

neotek · November 12, 2002, 06:26

Funny how now this thread is reopened and unlocked. Lol @ that

Real upfront there cool guys.

Neotek

The Pioneer · November 12, 2002, 06:27

I am wodering (as I am at work right now with nothing better to do) why would people that do not like Mark/Dan/Ming and/or the other Mods stay around and b**c about it? This is a private site and as far as I am concerned they can lock anybody they like or want at any time without the need to explain themselves to us! Of course they do not do that. They do try though to keep everything in order and while keeping the site interesting. Now I think a lot of people agree with me here when I say they are doing darn good job at it. Of course they have their glitches and make mistakes but then everybody does. I also think that they are open to constructive criticism....

So long...

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 06:35

just so that you dont have any illusions neotek, the thread was unlocked 9 minutes before your thread....

Alex · November 12, 2002, 07:30

Civ is the only God and Mark/Dan/Ming are His prophets...

TheStinger · November 12, 2002, 07:38

If you don't like the game at all why bother posting, if you have some crticisms fair enough, but i suppose the point is this site is for people who play and like Civ type games

Alexander's Horse · November 12, 2002, 08:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Anaximander
(although I do think that the car analogy has SOME merit)

Thank you

I used it first in one of my PTW threads that was locked

Mark and Ming should lighten up - you guys are stifling debate and really starting to look ridiculous. Went through this before with civ III and those other dogs - the CTP series.

Does Firaxis help pay for the site or something? I can only assume there is a relationship of some kind which we are not seeing

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 08:44

Quote:

Mark and Ming should lighten up - you guys are stifling debate

you know, you're right!
ming, from now on we will delete threads instead of closing them with explanations on reasons and then encouraging a reasonable discussion with arguments and stuff...

thank you very much for your suggestion horsie!!

Alexander's Horse · November 12, 2002, 09:00

Well I don't even feel I have the right to start a thread there because you would just close it and ban me.

Is that the atmosphere you want your forums to have?

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 09:13

noone has been banned for starting one of the threads we are talking about horsie

the fear is just in your head and has no basis in reality and any of our decisions. i strongly advise that you seek help from a professional.

Alexander's Horse · November 12, 2002, 09:31

The "fear", more like a strong inhibition, is well just justified - you have banned me twice for posting critical comments in an on topic forum. Ming closed the thread on consumer rights I started on the PTW forum.

I can join the dots.

Rasbelin · November 12, 2002, 09:37

My little input (don't associate this with Poly or any official rules) on the issue...

There's indeed times when threads are better to be deleted than left open or closed. The reason can simply be that you want to ASAP cool off an issue by force or if there's something that would mess up the community. I do understand this now (okay, now someone's going to say "yikes" when my understanding for Ming has increased

) after some own experience from the FreeAC Forums when a simple thread about the future web hosting of the project website, FTP, e-mail and forums, became something of a flamewar and a thread like 10-year-olds arguing about the hosting and a future fund raising scheme. Well, the project was almost endangered by that, so I had to ask others not to take part in it or discuss the issue behind the scene, while closing and deleting the thread in order to cool off the whole debacle. Fortunately that was the right move as the rally settled down and things returned back to normal after a few days.

So sometimes there's those moments you have to act like a despot and cut off the chatter.

Indeed Horsie has a clue when he says questionises a clamp down like this, but on the other hand there's times when you have to do something. Well, maybe I'm not the right person to speak about issues like this, but if the owners of the site think that's a valid policy, then it's IMHO up to them. Of course consulting the community members is a good thing, but if they enforce this new policy, I'm not among the first ones to whine.

After all, each community and society needs rules in order to work.

Just 0,05 € by me.

MarkG · November 12, 2002, 10:00

Quote:

you have banned me twice for posting critical comments in an on topic forum.

i can only find a record of single ban since April 2001. it was in fact April 16, 2001 and the record states:
For continued spamming and trolling after being told not to

it seems that you have yet to contain your habits...

Robert Plomp · November 12, 2002, 10:33

Civ3 is not a bad game,
I still enjoy it very much! I play it on daily base.

If I look at all the rant-threads that popped up after it's release, and compare it with the huge amount of people that are still playing it right now, we can easily conclude that all the ranting had no point.

I'm sure (eventhough I didn't play PtW yet) that in half a year we will conclude the same from this product.

I really support poly for closing those boring first-sight rants. And yes please, delete them as well.

AH: just keep on civ2-ing, you're too old for new games

It's a fact, when people grow old, they aren't able to learn new things anymore

SpencerH · November 12, 2002, 11:43

Given that one of my threads just got closed with the comment "that there were lots of others", I have to agree that the closings can be somewhat capricious (especially since mine was started earlier).

Ming · November 12, 2002, 11:45

If I had seen it when you started it, I would have closed it then.