Seven Pillars of Wisdom

[vmxa1]

Most likely.

[Barinthus]

This is a terrific thread. It's now bookmarked

[Theseus]

Originally posted by ducki
Hey, it's been 3 months, man. Still stand by(on) your Pillars?

Yep, I certainly do.

More than just in the context of C3C, though. In the time between when I originally wrote this and now, we've had more AU games, especially 501, the PTWDG and the ISDG, extensive analysis and discussion with Firaxis / Breakaway of various aspects of the game in re C3C and thepatches, etc.

If anything, it makes me further stress the importance of the Infrastructure Requirements as the foundation for everything else (see the edit I've added to #6), but that still, building is not winning ( let's just think about that one, shall we?).

[Aqualung71]

Thanks for bumping this thread ducki - I'd never read it before.

Theseus, a great read. Good stuff. Wonderful macro view of the game. While all still appropriate and relevant, I wonder whether some of the details can now be expanded with some C3C lessons learned from AU501.

[ducki]

If you haven't already done it, everything Theseus has linked from the "Must Read THreads" at the top really is.
Must read, that is.

This one is one of my favorites.

[Aqualung71]

DP - Aarrrrgghhh!!!!

[Aqualung71]

Yes, I've read some of them - heaps of great stuff there. Some info is out of date of course, but the general strategy ones are great. Also a great reminder of how much you've learned since you first started playing Civ3! Scary to think how much of my life was taken up in that learning process!

[BigFree]

Nice thoughts on the game Theseus.

[kiurkugord]

what does beeline philo to get tech mean?

[1889]

Originally posted by kiurkugord
what does beeline philo to get tech mean?

Researching to Philosophy as fast as you can so you get it first. In Conquests the first person to research Philosophy gets his next Tech free.

[kiurkugord]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by joncnunn
The 0% (+1 scientist) is an Emperor / Diety tactic only.

It makes no sense on the lower levels, where it's easy to get a branch lead even in the anicnt era.

Things are different on the Emperor level, where the AI has a 20% science edge. You can't possibly consitantly outresearch the AI until your Forbiden Palace is complete at this level. The techs that you can ourreserach the AI to are off the main branches of reserach and can be done in the 40 turns.

Which are these techs?
iron working ?!


In the Ancient Era, set the scince breaker as low as you can such that you still have one beaker, and pick the most expensive tech.

let's say ,set the beaker to 10%?
some expensive tech like what?

Peroidaclly check in with other AIs to buy every tech as it comes adviable.

the trouble is that at emperor at the beginning when i try with the first contacts to buy some tech ,they won't sell me anything or at a huge gpt !!!!


Tech whore both techs that you buy from an AI and the ones you get for 40 beakers. (If there's few enough AIs: Polythesism & Monarchy are the best candidates for this.)

easier said then done!

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by kiurkugord
Which are these techs?

it really depends. different civs have different research priorities. generally if they can get a wonder or uu, they will prioritise those techs.

a civ that starts with masonry and has access to ivory will go after mathematics. a civ that starts with alphabet will probably go for the great library.

in the ancient age, the branches are
- construction
- currency
- republic
- monarchy
the "main branches of research" can change from game to game. jon goes on to propose the monarchy branch. i normally find that branch is very popular and i can't out-research the ai there. however, i can often beat them to currency, so i may choose that instead.

try to avoid a set formula like, every time i start the game i bee-line to philo. look around and see what is happening. ok, so you'll make some mistakes. wouldn't be any fun if you always knew exactly the right thing to do before you even started a game.

the trouble is that at emperor at the beginning when i try with the first contacts to buy some tech ,they won't sell me anything or at a huge gpt !!!!

ok firstly, at emperor level, it is normal to start out behind the ai. most people will not be able to overtake the ai until the industrial age. as the great bw points out it's about breaking the cycle. at the start, you will be stuck playing catch-up. you then have to do stuff to leverage yourself into a position where you have the opportunity to break that cycle.

i know how you feel about the "huge gpt" deals. it seems like they are asking for a fortune just for the sake of being nasty. however, if you play around with your research slider, you can see that researching a tech will cost just as much as buying it.

if it makes you feel any better, see if you can bargain them down a bit. overall however, every tech has a price. if they pay 400 gold to research something, they're not going to sell it to you for 10 gpt. it comes back to pillar #6 - making the best use of the tiles under your control. if you do that properly, you can afford to buy techs, if not, you need to spend more time looking at how you use your tiles.

easier said then done!

yeah, jon is a very experienced player and makes it all seem so effortless.
tech trading is a tricky skill to master. i think it is also a difficult one to write about. something that is a good trade in one situation may turn out to be disastrous in a different setting.
i really think you need to give yourself time to experiment. go ahead and make some mistakes or you'll never really learn.

generally, at emperor level, the ancient age is way too early to be looking at getting a tech lead.
i recommend paying attention to pillar #6, get the most out of your tiles. building up a strong tech position follows from that.

[kiurkugord]

once(but only one time ;never succeded in doing that again!) i managed to get (through writing,alphabet and literature) the great library first and in that occasion i managed even to stay ahead of the others for a while.......
maybe to achieve the great library first is the only way to stay ahead in the ancient age or what do you think?
as i usually play with the germans i tried even for a ultra early archers rush but with little or no success at all!
not to mention the barbarians that are much stronger then they are at inferior levels and more than once have ruined my tactics!!!!

ps
i'm talking about civ3 not conquest where the one who gets philo gets a tech for free!

[kiurkugord]

in one of the rules of the seven pillars it's written that is not advisable to set research to 0%, also if to buy tech from the others civ may be less expensive or similar;but i ask myself how can one apply that to emperor, when if i try to keep the research to the maximum i can't obviously put money on luxury for maintaining the happiness of people(which is a very sensitive thing at emperor)withou losing money,and the riots won't be late unless i haven't built temple and similar(which would take me away time from producing granary for example or some more settler or worker for REX!!!!
I'm waiting for reply.............

[Modo44]

Originally posted by kiurkugord
in one of the rules of the seven pillars it's written that is not advisable to set research to 0%, also if to buy tech from the others civ may be less expensive or similar;but i ask myself how can one apply that to emperor

It applies up to Demigod for all I know. I did not try Deity. The idea is to get that one tech before the AI, and use it to strip them of all (or most) of their cash. Then the next tech you sell them will make them lower research for sure, and you win (just keep selling and use the money well). Now, if you happen to buy a tech (any tech) at a high price, you inevitably fuel the top AI's research, and let them stay ahead of you that much longer. You might be able to get away with it once or twice, but the more cash you give them, the less chance of ever getting back in the race. In general, it is better to research your way to the point where you can start selling techs.

By the way, the idea is to keep research as high as possible, but that does not always meen 100%. If you need the lux slider then use it (while trying to get more luxuries, of course).

Or, you can just go on a killing frenzy all the way, doing no research but extorting things. But you would not be asking about tech trades in that case, I presume.

[kiurkugord]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Modo44

It applies up to Demigod for all I know. I did not try Deity. The idea is to get that one tech before the AI, and use it to strip them of all (or most) of their cash.

this is a way to do things that i manage to do quite well from chieftain to regent level,but at emperor once i reached literature first the other civ didn't want to pay much cash for it as most of the times at emperor they have,'couse of the bonus they start with,so much bigger army that they try to extort that rather than pay.......

but when i try to sell them something should i consider to ask only a lump of money or maybe GpT better?
as for the others things that you mentioned(extort them tech and similar)
as they,like i said before,almost always have a bigger army than mine, is very difficult to get!!!!
tried even the ultra archer rush!!!!

[Modo44]

Originally posted by kiurkugord
this is a way to do things that i manage to do quite well from chieftain to regent level,but at emperor once i reached literature first the other civ didn't want to pay much cash for it as most of the times at emperor they have,'couse of the bonus they start with,so much bigger army that they try to extort that rather than pay.......

If they do not pay cash, it is because either they do not have it, or they are close to researching the tech already. But note that you can often get a tech for a tech and some gold (not the mountain you would need without the tech to offer). Then it is good to pay something. And if you can, buy the techs only one civ has. This way you will have two techs to sell to the next trading partner. Also, learn which techs the AI is late to get, and try to research those first. And remember that civ that was the first to one tech—this is the first one to be stripped of all gold as soon as you have something new to sell.

Originally posted by kiurkugord
but when i try to sell them something should i consider to ask only a lump of money or maybe GpT better?

Lump sum, then as much gpt as is available. Of course, getting techs and luxuries is even better.

Originally posted by kiurkugord
as for the others things that you mentioned(extort them tech and similar)
as they,like i said before,almost always have a bigger army than mine, is very difficult to get!!!!
tried even the ultra archer rush!!!!

Many things could be said in general, but this is no good without taking a look. Please, post a save, or at least a screenie with description, and you will surely get some good advice.

[kiurkugord]

Originally posted by Modo44

If they do not pay cash, it is because either they do not have it, or they are close to researching the tech already. But note that you can often get a tech for a tech and some gold (not the mountain you would need without the tech to offer). Then it is good to pay something. And if you can, buy the techs only one civ has. This way you will have two techs to sell to the next trading partner. Also, learn which techs the AI is late to get, and try to research those first. And remember that civ that was the first to one tech—this is the first one to be stripped of all gold as soon as you have something new to sell.


Lump sum, then as much gpt as is available. Of course, getting techs and luxuries is even better.


Many things could be said in general, but this is no good without taking a look. Please, post a save, or at least a screenie with description, and you will surely get some good advice.

yes,but what about the fact that at emperor they start with and build a bigger army than mine at a faster way?
despite my efforts to create as much military units as i can the most of the other civs have always a superior number!!!!
in the last game ,after i'v tried to attack another one in the early 60-70 turns managed even to get a Gl with whom i've rushed the great library,but after a while they all start a war against me the suckers!
now i'm in inferior number and also if with the great library i can keep the pace with techs it will be very hard to hold this multiple attack!!!!
is there a way to create an army better than the others at emperor?

ps
as for the save and a screenie i don't know how to do that!
once i'v downloaded a save from some other who posted when i start to view(after i'v extracted it in civ3ver 1,29f file )it appears the message not valid loaded file,and i'm not able to see it;
what can you tell me about it?

[Golden Bear]

Well, Kiurk, there are a lot of threads on this topic.

If you go back to the start of the thread you will see Theseus stressing the fundamentals.

Early game success is related to tile utilization and correct building. The AI does not see the difference between a Warrior and a Swordsman, so you can keep them away by building cheap units.

So what if they all attack you? AI is clumsy and can be tricked. You might lose a city on your fringe but that will not affect your eventual game. Stave off one Civ - bash another until it caves in, go after the next weakest, or strongest. Turtle up and fight from within cities.

Be aware that if you give it any excuse, the AI will pile on. I hate that, but it does it. Don't let a war linger on or other Civs will pick you out as the weak victim.

The problem with answering questions about "what to do" is that the game operates as a system. If you decide to archer rush, then you are giving up production of city improvements and probably delaying tech advances. You need to compensate somehow. Do you become warmonger and beat techs out of your neighbors? If you do that, then picking on weak neighbors probably won't work because they will be weak in techs.

Early wars for me are about taking out a weak neighbor either for expansion or so that I don't have to do it later. Otherwise I only do "pruning" or resource wars.

Look at the game as a system. Work towards optimizing Theseus' seven "pillars." Don't focus on single details.

Also, on Emperor, I NEVER worry about getting GLib. If it were to fall into my lap, I would take it. No biggie otherwise. As someone pointed out in some other good thread long ago, none of the Wonders are necessary - well except maybe for ToE and maybe UN.

Go find the Ducki thread about settler pumps. Go read Vels messages about early game development. Don't focus on a single aspect of the game but build on them all and most important - make them work together!

And a last BTW - the jump to Emperor requires new thinking. You need to have new and more focused technique. You also need to have plans that proceed throughout the game. Don't make new decisions on a turn by turn basis. Think about how you want the whole game to turn out.


Golden Bear

[kiurkugord]

in one match i'm playing at monarch, in the initial location for the capital i hav around the capital two shielded grassland other tiles of desert and some plains and if i irrigate something it appears after the capital has reached size 3 or 4 ,the message :the citizens die 'couse of the conditions "irrigated plains".......
this seems to me weird ,given that the plains are to be irrigated!!!!
i can't explain this ****ing message.............

[kiurkugord]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by kiurkugord
in one match i'm playing at monarch, in the initial location for the capital i hav around the capital two shielded grassland other tiles of desert and some plains and if i irrigate something it appears after the capital has reached size 3 or 4 ,the message :the citizens die 'couse of the conditions "irrigated plains".......
this seems to me weird ,given that the plains are to be irrigated!!!!
i can't explain this ****ing message.............:angry
i really can't make heads or tail of this message!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terra Nullius]

sorry for the delay, i don't have a regular net connection so i can only post when i get the chance.

it sounds like you're getting the dreaded flood-plains disease. are you using a us version of the game? if not, it might just be a problem with the translation. flood plains will cause disease, but it's nothing to get upset about. in the long term, it shouldn't make that much difference.

as far as your archer rushes go,..
the archer rush can be a very powerful tactic. it's important to remember that it's just one possible tactic. just because it can be powerful doesn't mean it will work every time.

in fact, i'd say the archer rush is one tactic that is highly dependent on good fortune. good planning helps, of course. you need to consider who your oponents are. did you pick the right civ to target? your starting location might not be ideal for an archer rush. again it really takes some experience to recognise the right conditions to justify an archer rush.

in other words, you probably didn't do anything wrong,.. the archer rush is a gamble. sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. most of the people who are successful at it only learned through trial and error.

yes,but what about the fact that at emperor they start with and build a bigger army than mine at a faster way?
despite my efforts to create as much military units as i can the most of the other civs have always a superior number!!!!

it seems to me that this is exactly what theseus is talking about in this thread. you're trying to put the roof on a building that's got no walls.

workers and tile use is what allows you to build the strength to break the ai's power cycle. an early rush can be a useful gamble, but if you get the basics right, it shouldn't matter whether you use it or not.

really any other advice i could give is just a guess without seeing a few screenshots

how to...
start civ and choose the location you want to capture as a screenshot
hit the 'print screen button'
open the 'paint' accessory
paste (ctrl-v) the image into paint
save it as c:\my pictures\screenshot.jpg
start a new thread or go to an existing thread and select 'post reply'
at the top of the 'post reply' screen you will see this,..
[IMG]C:\DATA\Copykids\Damien\Personal\temp\img_eg.jpg[/IMG]
select the'img' button
in the pop-up window, type c:\my pictures\screenshot.jpg
click ok

[kiurkugord]

i'm using a civ3 italian version(don't know if i can put a screenie even of this version as you pointed out;i'll give a try,anyway) ...................
the right term is "flood plains" as you said(wrong about plains!),and this thing prevents my capital from growing more than 3,or 4 size!!!!
i play with the germans..........
the nearest civs are india and france(to those i aim my rush);further ones are england ,china and russians!

[kiurkugord]

another thing is that tha AI always signs alliances with each other against me as soon as i start a war (after writing discovery)against a civ,but if i try to sign an alliance with a civ i don't get anything!!!!

[Modo44]

Originally posted by kiurkugord
another thing is that tha AI always signs alliances with each other against me as soon as i start a war (after writing discovery)against a civ,but if i try to sign an alliance with a civ i don't get anything!!!!

They will sign alliances with you only if you have things they want. Usually that means loads of cash and/or a technology or two. Rarely — resources or luxuries. You only need to sign a few alliances, and let the AIs pull others in...

[Terra Nullius]

just wondering, are you careful about declaring war? you know how the french are - quite happy for you to seek their utter destruction - as long as you do so in the most courteous and diplomatic manner.

at emperor level and above it is important to take steps to safeguard your reputation, or be prepared for the consequences. the correct protocol is;
1. do not have any troops on enemy territory when you declare war
2. contact the target civ
at the bottom of the dimplomacy screen, select 'active'
click on 'peace treaty' / 'ok'
click on 'peace treaty' again and 'destroy them they are scum'
you can do this at the start of a turn and still be free to move your units to attack after declaring war.

the other civ's will get very angry with you if you don't use a proper declaration of war, and (i think) that will make it easier for france to gain allies.

[kiurkugord]

i don't know if i will find these notes on the italian version of civ3(those about to print an image and similar) and not even those about the proper declaration of war!
by the way,the fact that tha capital has flood plains around(two tiles) and that makes the population die(the city won't grow more than size 4 and this is not a tiny problem !!!!)
it has two SG(which are to be mined in the despotism, i suppose),then deserts tile(irrigation i think) and plains tile(which are to be irrigated i think);
as for the location of the other city there is a problem about to make in such a way,according to what is written in the ultra early archer rush, as to have in every city(the 4 ones for the purpose) 2 food and two shields in two tiles,'couse of the corruption of the other city from the capitol(the second one already loses one shield for the corruption!)........and that all makes that tactic delay by many turns!!!!
the wheat and the horse on plains are to be mined aren't they?!
i think i have to build the most part of units in the capital 'couse of the delay of the other cities to build units!!!!and i have to build temples(or some cultural improvements in almost every city) ASAP, couse i've noticed that even if create almost as many cities as the AI i'm always behind as amount of territory!!!!

[Golden Bear]

Except for the annoying famine/disease thing, you can usually get a decent settler pump out of flood plains if you have something to mine nearby. You might need to have two and alternate settler-(other unit). That will keep you up with the AI for expansion.

In terms of the rest of it, you need to work the happiness slider on Emp and do it almost every turn as your cities grow. Did you secure luxuries? These are crucial in order to allow you spare a little cash from the happiness slider.

Germans aren't necessarily the Civ I would recommend for a first Emperor attempt. I think that the Americans are pretty easy and almost any civ with Agricultural will make expansion easier.

You might consider doing restarts and trying different things on your different attempts. You are very much in a learning situation.

BTW, warrior-worker-warrior(-granary) is a good general purpose build for new cities. Of course if you have scouts you may want to alter this, etc.

If you like, you can make a save game (not autosave) and post it here where people can look at it and give you advice.


Golden Bear

[Aqualung71]

.

[kiurkugord]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
Except for the annoying famine/disease thing, you can usually get a decent settler pump out of flood plains if you have something to mine nearby. You might need to have two and alternate settler-(other unit). That will keep you up with the AI for expansion.


that's to say i should have at least two cities with flood plains around?!

In terms of the rest of it, you need to work the happiness slider on Emp and do it almost every turn as your cities grow. Did you secure luxuries? These are crucial in order to allow you spare a little cash from the happiness slider.

the game i'm currently playing at is on monarch level!


Germans aren't necessarily the Civ I would recommend for a first Emperor attempt. I think that the Americans are pretty easy and almost any civ with Agricultural will make expansion easier.

i want to destroy them all,the suckers

You might consider doing restarts and trying different things on your different attempts. You are very much in a learning situation.

civ 3 is not an easy strategic game at all!

BTW, warrior-worker-warrior(-granary) is a good general purpose build for new cities. Of course if you have scouts you may want to alter this, etc.

i'll make a try!

If you like, you can make a save game (not autosave) and post it here where people can look at it and give you advice.


don't know if with the italian version can do that!

Golden Bear