Question for the faithful--

[MiloMilo]

or unfaithful, depending on how you look at it. As the holidays roll around, I am thinking about making the fabled "switch" from pc to mac. Feel free to weigh in on the merits of this generally, but I also specifically want to know what this means in terms of civ3. No multiplayer? I can deal with that. No single-player PTW? Fine. But where is the mac version in terms of patches? Still way behind? Is it ever going to catch up? Etc. etc. Thanks folks.

M

[ChaotikVisions]

Oh my god, do those 'switch' commercials actually have a targetted audience? Whatever it is thats bothering you, don't do it. Ruining the rest of your life can't be worth whats happening right now...

Seriously, why would you bother to switch? Do you not play games that much, generally using the comptuer for basic stuff? I'd rethink changing, sticking with something that has more support and more programs coming out for it would be better. Just my thoughts, not really sure about the current state of the Mac version patches of Civ3.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by MiloMilo
or unfaithful, depending on how you look at it. As the holidays roll around, I am thinking about making the fabled "switch" from pc to mac.

[lateralis]

unfortunately, this is just the type of bashing you must resign yourself to if you come over to the light side. But abuse notwithstanding, I highly recomend the switch. I've always been a mac user but my partner in business just switched about 6 months ago and he will never go back (his words).

The facts:

1. there are less games for the mac. this is just an unfortunate truism and will probably always be (unless the switch ads REALLY do their job. )

2. Almost everyone who switches ends up glad they did (I said almost everyone so don't flame me on this point I know there are some people who end up unhappy... but there are some people who like blood sausage too... )

3. Anything that can be done on a PC can be done on a mac, often times much better. desktop movies, music, cd burning, digital photos, dvd movies (watching and burning) can all be done on macs ususally a lot easier and intuitively.


In terms of patch parity, we're still a little behind, 1.21g right now, but we are assured that the 1.29 patch and editor are coming soon . I'm still waiting to see how the new commercial trait plays. And PTW is still in limbo. But I for one think you will be glad you did it if you switch. Our platform is SOOO much more fun and enjoyable to use. (and yes, I have used both, I still keep a 450 mHz win98 PC under my desk for connecting to gamespy so I can play halo online. But windoze XP just gets in your way to much!!)

for my money, it breaks down like this:

windoze tries to be intuitive and simple and all the rest. But it tries too hard and ends up screwing it up in the end.

Macintosh tries to be intuitive and simple and all the rest. And it is.

that's it, rant over.

lateralis

(get a mac!! you'll be glad you did!!)

[vmxa1]

A little behind? A patch (129f) that has been out quite awhile and an expansion pack.

[Nubclear]

unfortunately, this is just the type of bashing you must resign yourself to if you come over to the light side.

I've heard that before....But here in the state of Utah, they say that in refrence to the Church of Mormon.

[nbarclay]

The biggest thing that's never appealed to me about Apple (and this goes all the way back to the Apple II) is that they've always priced their machines a lot higher than the hardware justifies. They operate on a relatively low-volume, high profit margin business model, and that's very much at odds with my tendency toward being a cheapskate. It also has a lot to do with why relatively little software is written for Apple: the low-volume, high-margin marketing model doesn't give software publishers as large a customer base. Hence, keeping the Mac Civ 3 version up to date with the PC one isn't the highest of priorities.

Nathan

[WarpStorm]

OS X is a pretty damn good operating system, but you will suffer in the games department.

BTW, it has a cool screensaver I wrote called Flurry.

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by lateralis

In terms of patch parity, we're still a little behind, 1.21g right now, but we are assured that the 1.29 patch and editor are coming soon . ..... And PTW is still in limbo.

The editor is currently being built by Brad Oliver, and it will be delivered. The 1.29f patch has not been promised; however, I've Civ3 on a toshiba, patched to 1.29f, and I notice no significant differences. However, the additional stack movement features and the improved commercial trait would be nice to have.

In regards to games available for the mac, PC games w/ poor sales are not ported; therefore, most games you see ported to the mac are pretty good games. If its strategy you like, Virtual Programming is releasing Europa Universalis II and Legion in Q1/2003. These games are definitely on my short list for must-buy games. As fas as mac-only games, there aren't many planned. But, is this really important?

In regards to PC v. Mac platforms, I drive a Ford because I can afford it, but I'd rather have a BMW. Really though, its up to you. But, I really enjoy my Mac, and its three years old - still kickin' it! And, I don't have to worry about viruses, too much.

[Alex]

macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by Alexnm
macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

Warcraft 3 and Civ 3 are pretty popular. Since that is about all my computer gaming experience is limited to, I cant name any other good games.

Oh wait! Prince of Persia!!!

[EJDay]

Thinking about the switch? That's a heckuva leap. In advance, let me tell you: I'm writing this during a lull at work, from a Dell running NT...
1) Like everyone mentions, Macs have less games.
>>TRUE<<
OTOH, 98% of the games of out there suck. How much do you value your time?
* Macs usually have the better games ported over.
* It's a little more expensive and it's a little later... but Mac version are usually a little less buggy. When they port, they usually iron out a lot of the issues that plague WinTel machines. Sure, you don't get the immediate satisfaction of being able to swear at the crashes along with everyone else, but at the same time... you're not swearing at the crashes with everyone else.
2) Macs are, on average, more expensive.
>>TRUE<<
On the flip side, they have better standardization on the platform. You don't have reinstall the OS and 6 proprietary drivers just because you bought the newest killer app.
What money you spend above and beyond a comparable system from Dell (Dude), you'll save in man-hours keeping the machine operational. Break down what you think your time is worth, per hour. Remember that money comes and goes, but you can't buy time. Now, reweigh the argument.
3) WinTel is the de facto standard of the world.
>>TRUE<<
It's the industry standard. A proprietary industry standard. ...that will be charging out the wazoo for updates to keep the virus writers motivated.
OTOH, the Mac platform, OS X (pronounced "ten," of course), has a Unix base. The scientific and heavy industrial standard with a pretty slick interface on the top. OS X is also pretty flexable if you want to tweak it. It's got a healthy following and it's percentage will only continue to grow. It is a safe investment.

So, there you have it. BTW, maybe I should tell you: working all day on WinTel machines made my choice that much easier. When I go home (and post over at CFC), I'll be doing it on my Mac.

[ferretloverdc]

Originally posted by Alexnm
macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

Let's see.... I have these games on my Mac:

Warcraft 3
Civ 3
EV:Nova (great game, just now being ported to the PC)
The Sims
Diablo 2
Heroes 3 (4 coming soon)
MOO 2 (3 coming very soon)
Starcraft
SMAC
Baldur's Gate 2 (so I like RPGs - ok?)
Black & White (not my fav, but a fair game)

....so, what cool games am I missing? Personally, I rarely see a game out for PC that I really want that hasn't been ported to the Mac. It may take a little longer to get the games sometimes, but as has been mentioned, the Mac versions are usually less buggy in the process.

[ferretloverdc]

Originally posted by vmxa1
A little behind? A patch (129f) that has been out quite awhile and an expansion pack.

Yes, I think that qualifies as a little behind. After all, the 1.29f patch was the next released patch after 1.21f. The version number is semi-arbitrary, they change it to reflect how much has changed between the old patch and the new one. A few things changed, and I would like to see those changes, but from what I have seen and heard the changes aren't so radical that they blow me away and make me salivate for the patch.

As to the expansion pack, it looks nice and if it does come to the Mac, I will consider getting it. However, from everything I have read, it isn't that cool of an expansion. Sure it adds some additional civs and multi-player ability, but from the comments and reviews I have read, it isn't that great for the money.

I am not saying that I wouldn't like these features for the Mac. But, to me, they don't make a huge impact on the game. Just my opinion.

[Minmaster]

this is a very touch subject for a lot of people, but i will try to be objective. ive owned and used macs for over a decade as well as pcs. if you are a gamer, then i would recommend staying away from macs. although i am a mac gaming enthusiast, the amount of time we have to wait for ports as well as the quality of the port doesnt justify the money that couldve been spent buying the same game on pc for less price (by the time a mac port is done, the game on pc side is old news has gone down in price- there are exception, like warcraft 3). however, if gaming isnt one of your bigger needs, and u like to do creative work, the mac is a easier and has more polished apps for such tasks. i like to have both computers around so i can get the best of both worlds. but as far as civ is concerned, i m not too happy with the quality of mac civ3 port as well as it lagging behind in patches and its lack of editor. so if you are a hardcore civver, i dont think you would be happy with a mac. also a big factor is the amount of money you would like to spend. if you got the $$ to spend, and dont mind the price disparity between pcs, then theres one less thing to consider.

not long ago, i read a very insightful post about the "switch" at a mac gaming forum and i think it explains a lot of things very well so let me post it because this post tells it 1000 times i can ever.

" You may or may not be aware of it, but you have just plunged into a topic that verges on the religious for some individuals. This subject has the tendency to raise the ire of Mac and Windows zealots alike, especially in mixed company. Luring these two species into conflict at a party or company picnic is more fun than releasing a bag full of monkeys at a **** fight. I know, I know, I lead a sheltered existence.

I will give you my (very humble ;-) opinion based on my background. I have worked for the last two and half years in a UNIX environment as a Design Verification Engineer for a multinational telecommunications company (one of the big ones). I initially began working my way through my comp sci degree as a Windows sys admin then as a programmer (in both Windows and UNIX). Until recently, I have worked and played primarily in a PC environment that has been heavily influenced by a strong UNIX background. However, I have recently switched over to a Dual 1GHz G4 Tower utilizing OSX 10.1.5.

Moses, this is beginning to sound like the archetypical "switched" campaign. So, on from the slew of self-aggrandizing tripe. Let's get to the meat of the subject and I mean the really tasty bits.

How does OS X compare with MS Windows? A.K.A. "Whoop-de-doo, Basil! What does it all mean?"

I have long held that there continues to exist a legitimate use for both platforms. That by compositing a list of each system's strengths, their specific niches would become readily apparent. However, with the advent of OSX I believe that Apple has entered into a serious endeavour to blur if not eradicate the traditional boundaries between each OS. I do not intend to discount other serious UNIX-based attempts to enter the home user market such as LINUX. Being somewhat of a technofreeq myself, I hold LINUX in high regard. These are earnest and significant systems, but we should keep in mind that - so far - they are pretty much still earmarked for the compuphiles among us. That is, if you love the process of problem solving, if tweaking and tuning your home machine is your greatest passion - then by all means grab a copy of LINUX and satisfy that deep soulful need.

As previously mentioned in earlier responses to your query, OSX is a BSD UNIX implementation. All I will add to this particular commentary is that the BSD OS, like the RedHat OS, is a well-known platform in the UNIX-based community with a solid history. Appraise yourself of the maturity of BSD's OS by doing some research online.

I briefly exercised my god-given right to run Win98 on my PC and became an instant NT convert. I now currently run the ever so popular Windows 2000 on my PC (essentially an NT enhancement). My mother still runs Win98 utilizing a scanner, laser printer, cable modem, sound card, and a flash card reader for her embroidery machine's memory card. The resulting conflicts with this mundane litany of hardware produced an endless series of support calls that I'm sure raised the profit lines of both Ma Bell and MTS (formerly Manitoba Telephone Service - now Manitoba Telecom Services). Truly, we are not discussing the use of high end professional equipment with all the requisite eccentricities we might then associate to the overall process.

Some of my favourite recurring events were Win98's Plug'n'Play periodically disassociating itself from the mouse and the keyboard. I've actually had this happen between keystrokes while the hardware was plugged in and accessible. I eventually traced the problem to its source and quickly resolved the issue. However, it is my opinion that in our time limited world not everyone has the desire or patience to endure yet another hardware/ software conflict, when all they fancy is to print out a simple Word document. Even in the world of Windows, Win98 is considered far from a stable environment. In moving from Win98 to OSX, you will see an marked increase in OS speed and stability. I am assuming at this point due to your request for a comparison between the G4 and an x486 processor, that you are actually running in an x486 environment. Hence, the statement that you will experience a distinct increase in speed.

It is my strong belief that individuals in the Windows community are becoming more and more reticent to upgrade due to this inherent instability. Upon arriving at a coveted configuration who would yearn to set out on yet another conflict driven journey tantamount to the tales Homer sang about the Iliad (D'ohhh! Not that Simpson guy). I am not espousing the doctrine that OSX users will report a trouble free existence. However, under normal operating conditions, the number of system lockups and renegade processes experienced in OSX will be comparatively rare with respect to Win98.

The primary reasoning behind why I ventured into the land of Mac belongs to what I call the triad: a great Human Computer Interface (BTW - HCI is a great field that is ripe with opportunity), a UNIX core, and a brave move towards the Open Source philosophy.

OSX is quickly maturing into a strong platform that allows users from a wide set of circumstances to employ the OS as best benefits their requirements. My nine year old has been playing her games and doing her school research via a Win2000 account for the last couple of years. Each time she logs into her account, I am besieged with a variety of requests for help. I was astounded upon our first visit to an Apple retailer to discover her quietly enthralled behind the wheel of brand new iMac. She was happily amusing herself by looking through the OSX environment and shuttling through online web pages at an amazing rate. Hey, they're cute too!

Ever since I brought home the G4 tower, my daughter has not logged into her Win2000 account again. She plays most of her existing games (the majority of them work, none of the cereal box games are Mac compatible), browses the Net, plays CDs and internet radio programs, and is ready to do her first burn as we speak. All of this on the Mac and without a peep of discontent. While it is only a sample space of one (hardly the hardcore empirical data you might require), I believe this is due the high degree of HCI design that has gone into Apple's implementation.

With regard to native UNIX/XWindows software, I have not yet had any difficulty running any software that I require. I have also done some preliminary research with respect to this question and so far I have not been disappointed with any of the outcomes. I have to note that the development of an OS with a UNIX core was the primary fulcrum which promoted my "switch". I do a lot of technical work and I absolutely require access to resources of a highly technical nature. The arrow that Cupid forced between my ribs was the ability to go to the GNU Project and download the free UNIX command-line C compiler called GCC. Running GCC on my Mac was an utterly euphoric sensation hearkening back to the bad old days of late nights, two litre Coke bottles, and stressed university deadlines. I told you that I lived a sheltered life. Technofreeqs unite!

Finally, as a programmer and a freely functioning individual, I do have a number of reservations regarding Microsoft and their growing monopoly. Specifically, intellectual property issues and Microsoft's proclivity towards stifling dissent and eliminating competition. Hence, when I discovered that Apple was to allow Open Source development for OSX, I decided to show my support for this decision with my cheque book. If you have no knowledge of Open Source, here is a brief exerpt that may help define the concept:

"Open source is a term for the historical development model used by the Internet community to facilitate distributed development of complex, high-quality software. The basic principle is to involve as many people as possible in writing and debugging code, by publishing the source code and encouraging the formation of a large community of developers who will submit modifications and enhancements. Community efforts such as BSD, Linux, Sendmail, Apache, and Perl embody the spirit and power of the open source model."

What is the G4? A.K.A. "But I'm tryin' [Ringo]. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."

I will not add much more to the previous discussions about the G4 other than to re-affirm that this specific chipset is a RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computers) based design. Here is a late 90's excerpt specifying what RISC is all about: "The instruction set is the hardware "language" in which the software tells the processor what to do. Surprisingly, reducing the size of the instruction set -- eliminating certain instructions based upon a careful quantitative analysis, and requiring these seldom-used instructions to be emulated in software -- can lead to higher performance, for several reasons:
- The vacated area of the chip can be used in ways that accelerate the performance of more commonly used instructions, more than compensating for the inevitably degraded performance of the seldom-used instructions.
- It becomes easier to optimize the design.
- It allows microprocessors to use techniques hitherto restricted to the largest computers.
- It simplifies translation from the high-level language in which people program into the instruction set that the hardware understands, resulting in a more efficient program."

The system that a user should get will be based on the two principal pillars of the decision-making process: budget and requirements. Before anyone begins to salivate over any system purchase whether it be WinTel or Mac, they need to decide on the parameters of their final purchase. What is the maximum amount the purchase can cost? This is not to advise spending to that limit. It is a guideline for the consumer's wishlist. A means of reigning in impulse purchases. It also commences the justification process of cost-benefit analysis through which we all proceed at some level.

The next element of the decision requires absolute honesty. Keep in mind that there truly is a difference between desire and need. The best way to approach this stage is to sit down and write out two lists - a minimalist inventory of must have components and a fanciful catalogue of our most coveted hi-tech morsels. The final system will most likely combine elements from both lists.

All the G4 towers are dual processor kits with the facility for minimal customization with respect to current PC expectations. Both the iMac and the eMac are lower end machines respectively, with almost no room for expansion or alteration internally. Apple laptops have at least as much capacity for user-defined configuration as any of their Intel based compatriots. Nevertheless, it is important to point out that with the number Firewire and USB ports available on each machine, external expansion is an easy and highly recommended route for the technically disabled; both physically and metaphysically.

I have to state at this point that Intel chipsets are fast out-stripping the Motorola architecture in terms of clock cycles. One simply has to look at the latest chips available to the public. Intel is beginning to push the 3GHz envelope and Motorola has just pushed their 1.25GHz chip out to market. This is not an insignificant difference. A user's reaction to this issue, in combination with the much more limited ability to modify the Mac's hardware, will aid in defining their specific user definition. For example, I invariably end up in an intense discussion of each environment's strengths when speaking with a friend who is a high-end PC gamer. Without exception, his arguments boil down to the limited tweakability of the Mac and the more stunted availability of games and hardware. Whereas, my reasoning always distills into the common statement, "a computer is more than the sum of its parts." That is, like unto ages past when the biggest, baddest chariots with largest number of horses may have been the ultimate source of pride. Fashion and sensibility cycles through to the other end of the spectrum where efficiency and sublimity once again become the pivotal standard.

Remember, the majority of users still primarily utilize their computers for email and word processing. It is the more prevalent use of graphics and gaming that is driving our lust for the latest and greatest. With this in mind, how much power is actually required to read email? Nevertheless, I am not trying to belay technology or progress. I am simply stating that not all of us would actually want to use a high performance racing vehicle to commute back and forth to work everyday due to the heavy maintenance requirements. Sure, it would be a blast until the trip home when you would have to strip the engine down to its heads and valves to machine them for the trip home.

Thus, with all of this in mind we wrap up the final elements of this subject. Mac's can only be customized. They cannot be built to spec in the manner we expect from PCs. If you are on the upper end of the gaming scale, you will experience inconvenience and frustration when waiting for the Mac equivalents of the latest PC hardware or software introductions. For example, I am currently awaiting the wide distribution of the Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti for Mac. Whenever I hear that there exist three Ti models for PC and only a single option for the Mac, it is readily apparent which platform is under more ubiquitous gaming development. Notwithstanding these elements, the G4 tower allows for modification of storage devices (optical, IDE, or SCSI), RAM, video cards, and additional PCI slots for any desired expansion capacity.

With regard to normal office work and web browsing, I find the Mac is the more superior machine. Even Internet Explorer is better on the Mac. The Apple implementation of this browser features a sexy and more intuitive iconical interface. This is enhanced by the ability to drag and drop links onto your favourites bar and the program dock. An additional surprise was discovering the ability to drag and drop any image from the browser window to the desktop or any folder (directory) on the hard drive. Interchange of files between the Mac and PC is becoming more and more of a non-issue due to the ease of exchange.

My initial post-purchase Mac startup was incredibly graceful. I was prompted for some simple information entries and my Mac was ready to go - network aware and all. I simply started up the machine and went to work.

Most of your existing USB hardware should be accessible via the existing configuration, with little need to seek out drivers from the Net. Most non-USB peripherals can be utilized via the purchase of an adapter. There exist no serial, parallel, or bus (PS2) ports as you have come to expect of the PC.

The Mac is loaded and shipped with a conglomerate of software programs. These include the iFamily of software developed by Apple, such as iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, Internet Explorer, Mail, a central Address Book available to any number of inquiring programs, an RTF (Rich Text Format) Text Editor, QuickTime, and DVD software to play your favourite movies - to name but a few. iTunes is a great instance of this freely available family of software in that it allows the user to easily play internet radio programs, audio discs, MP3 discs, or burn with ultimate ease. With the advent of OSX 10.2, Apple also offers a calendar program (iCal) and a synchronization program (iSync) for a number of mobile devices such as PDA's and cell phones. In the end, only you can decide which system will most benefit your particular needs and desires. In my particular case, the switch was easy, painless and somewhat euphoric. "

if you want to see the whole thread, go http://www.macgamer.com/wcgi-bin/ubb...c&f=2&t=000776
its about someone who is thinking about making the switch who has some questions.

[Chemical Ollie]

I played CIV 1 and CIV 2 on Macs. CIV1 on a Powerbook 100 that I had with me anywhere I went, even to the lavatory taking a dump. Most of the GOOD games comes to Mac too, just a little later in some cases. I played Warcraft II, Worms, CIV1, CIV2, Conquest of the New World, Warlords II, Command & Conquer, and lots of other good games on Mac. The only game I would be missing if I had a Mac is Counter-Strike. And perhaps AoE (don't know if there is a Mac version for it).

However four years ago, I switched to PC because my employer gave me one at very reduced price. I don't regret it. The OS of Mac was much better before Win95 but now I think Windows is better. And ALL games are out there. I can also try the cracked versions before I buy them, as all my friends have PCs.

[ChaotikVisions]

I'll never ceased to be amazed at the people who switch to Macs after using PCs talk about "having to reinstall your OS and drivers to run that killer app." Or having problems while doing normal things. It seems these people are just morons, which is how those switch commercials are aimed. I mean the last one I saw the guy talks about switching to Mac being an amazing deal because when he went to find a cord for his digital camera he couldn't, and the people at the "pc store" didn't know what he was talking about. It goes on to say they suggested that was a "hollywood thing".

Yeah, right. Then theres other switch commercials like the one where the guy speant -HOURS- downloading a driver for his camera. What, was he running off a 2400 baud? No offense to you Mac users, but when it seems like you're morons. You get overcharged for what you buy and lose out in games unless they're popular. And btw the way just because a game is popular doesn't make it good, and not all good games are wildly popular.

OSX is quickly maturing into a strong platform that allows users from a wide set of circumstances to employ the OS as best benefits their requirements. My nine year old has been playing her games and doing her school research via a Win2000 account for the last couple of years. Each time she logs into her account, I am besieged with a variety of requests for help. I was astounded upon our first visit to an Apple retailer to discover her quietly enthralled behind the wheel of brand new iMac. She was happily amusing herself by looking through the OSX environment and shuttling through online web pages at an amazing rate. Hey, they're cute too!

Take this, it sounds reasonable but in all reality the guys probably a moron. 10 to 1 he probably had her as a seperate account and some things she was doing was requiring her to be administrator. Easily fixed, unless of course you don't try. Unless its just normal computer questions, but then they're still morons.

Some of my favourite recurring events were Win98's Plug'n'Play periodically disassociating itself from the mouse and the keyboard. I've actually had this happen between keystrokes while the hardware was plugged in and accessible. I eventually traced the problem to its source and quickly resolved the issue. However, it is my opinion that in our time limited world not everyone has the desire or patience to endure yet another hardware/ software conflict, when all they fancy is to print out a simple Word document. Even in the world of Windows, Win98 is considered far from a stable environment. In moving from Win98 to OSX, you will see an marked increase in OS speed and stability. I am assuming at this point due to your request for a comparison between the G4 and an x486 processor, that you are actually running in an x486 environment. Hence, the statement that you will experience a distinct increase in speed.

Plug and play ceasing to work for short periods of time? I used Win98 for a few years and never saw any of this. Be interesting to hear just what the problem was, but oh well. It isn't that difficult to fix problems if just work on it and actually know what the hell you're doing. As for Win98 not being that stable i'll agree, though on my old comp I could run it for a week to two weeks at time now and then, mostly it was 2-3 days. But compared to Win2k or my current os WinXP it isn't half as stable.


Anyway, it just annoys me. Every time I see one of those stupid switch commercials with people who went out and paid a couple thousand because they couldn't figure out how to plug the power cord in, ugh. If you just know what you're doing or failing that, don't do what you don't know, it'll run fine. Admittedly on Win9x there were some problems such as the memory leak, but now with Win2k/WinXP they're pretty much gone. But thats just my thoughts.

No offense to you Mac users out there, but these commercials and "testimonials" really make you guys sound like idiots. Its always some guy who can't find the power button because it "wasn't a bright blue" and then goes out to buy a Mac.

[lateralis]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
I played CIV 1 and CIV 2 on Macs. CIV1 on a Powerbook 100 that I had with me anywhere I went, even to the lavatory taking a dump.

I am sitting, taking a dump right now while reading this on my tibook 800! priceless!!!!

lateralis

[Alex]

Hm. Ok, I was misunderstood. When I said that "macs are cool, so cool that you can't play popular games on it", I was making a joke about the fact that I think macs are sooo damn cool that I would be embarassed to run stupid things like The Sims on it.

I like macs. I just don't have money for them.

[candybo]

Briefly, I promise. My first computer was an Apple IIe, and I attended a trade show introducing the ORIGINAL Mac (I was there for Lisa, too, but nevermind). Anyway, other than that, I've used pc's almost exclusively for the last 20 years, and will most likely never buy a Mac. That said, I think the reason many people go for Macs is pretty much the same reason so many Civvers are upset with Firaxis/Infogrames right now: Consumers reasonably expect something to work right the first time, right out of the box. Without HAVING to to be a technophile. Its an example of the technology NOT being fully matured. Is the home computer a gadget, similar to a ham radio set, or an appliance, like a tv? You don't expect to have to fiddle with circuit boards and jumpers, etc. in a tv, right?
As for me, I actually kind of enjoy the hobbyist aspects of computing, so its not an issue . That's my two cents, thanks for playing. We have some wonderful parting gifts for you...

[MiloMilo]

Wow, lots of responses. For what it's worth, here's what I think about the whole thing:

Supporting underdogs is definitely one of my priorities. Right now I use a compaq with an AMD processor and winXP. Going to the mac platform would mean taking that support away from AMD, but it would also take money away from microsoft.

I gotta say, I'm not sure why there are so many complaints about windows. With winXP Home for the last year and a half, I've seen virtually no crashes, great plugnplay, easy basic networking... I honestly have zero complaints with this os, aside from who manufactures it.

That said, from what I've heard, osX seems as good or better. I have no particular allegiance to windows, and I think I can get used to osX without any difficulty. (I'll miss right-clicking, but I'll get over it.) So in looking at the os, all I can conclude is that there's no reason NOT to switch.

I've been looking at prices, and I think the bit about macs being overpriced is overblown. I'm specifically interested in a laptop, and there doesn't seem to be any difference between pcs and macs. What's more, pc companies charge more for smaller, lighter systems, whereas the smallest, lightest ibooks are actually the cheapest offered by Macintosh.

I don't care much about software offerings; I don't have much time for games, civ3 is the only one I play. The only thing that bothers me software-wise (and it's a big gripe) is that corel stopped making wordperfect for macs, which means I'd be stuck with MS Word. Yuck.

Anyway, I don't know that I'm much closer to a decision, but I appreciate all the input. It's funny to see how people get so riled up about this stuff.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by lateralis


I am sitting, taking a dump right now while reading this on my tibook 800! priceless!!!!

lateralis

Wow! Wireless LAN? Perhaps I should get that and a laptop so I could pornosurf without having my wife watching over my shoulder.

One thing with Mac that no PC manufacturer yet have accomplished is to make the box look like a cool and estetic piece of furniture. Why do all PCs look the same, and so ugly?

[lateralis]

Originally posted by MiloMilo
and I think I can get used to osX without any difficulty. (I'll miss right-clicking, but I'll get over it.)

why? multi-button support is built in to osx. true, apple doesn't make a multi-button mouse, but any USB (and i stress ANY USB) mouse will work with OSX, and all your buttons will work. I personally use a logitech optical, wireless, 2-button, scroll wheel mouse.

Wow! Wireless LAN?

ah yes, gotta love airport (another thing apple was first to market for consumers!!! wireless home networking with 802.11b, add that to the list with dvd-burning, blutooth support, the 'windowed' interface, USB, Firewire, and the CD-ROM drive)

lateralis

[Mad Bomber]

I Love Mac's, I have to admit it. No fatal errors, less crashing, and far friendlier for the average computer user. Thir only drawback is the price. A mac will generally run you double the cost at half of the performance hardware, and it has less software support too. Personally I find the software issue a small issue, as you can buy a very cheap program called Virtual PC, which will allow you to run PC software on Mac's.

Windows XP is the best OS Microsoft has released, but I still get a lot of crashes, especially when playing CIV 3.

Why am I using Windows XP? My compaq cost me $600, the same system from Apple would have run me $1200- 1300. Macintosh will never be as popular as PC's without allowing them to be cloned.

[lateralis]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Macintosh will never be as popular as PC's without allowing them to be cloned.

Unfortunatley, one thing that the early 90's proved is that the 'cloning' concept could only work once. Mac were cloned for several years in there and it almost killed the platform. . lucky for use steve jobs came back into the fold, canceled the licenses to the cloners and released the iMac.

lateralis

[Arrian]

Funny, I haven't had any Mac experience for years, but the ones I did have experience with (never owned one, though) were always giving their owners problems: crashing constantly, etc. Now perhaps that had more to do with my College Campus' intranet setup than the Macs themselves, I dunno. I had an ancient PC (386) that faithfully chugged along for 8 years (1991-1999) without incident. I now have a simple Gateway 400mhz machine that has yet to give me trouble in the 3 1/2 yrs. I've owned it.

To each their own, I guess. All I know is that the Mac users have more trouble getting games/patches... and even if they get them, they have to wait longer.

Frankly, I never really understood the obsession with the Mac-style operating system (aka Windows). I was fine with DOS. It worked and it didn't eat memory like a bunch of stoners in 7-Eleven.

-Arrian

[Mad Bomber]

Lateralis:

unfortunately they took the wrong approach to cloning; they gave lisences to only one or two companies, the result was still no competition between the cloners, and prices still remained over those of PC's. Mac needs to sign cloning agreements with as many companies as possible, with companies that know how to build computers, Dell, gateway, compaq...

Arrian:

Dos is the most reliable OS, but who knows how to run it, I am sure there are a few computer geeks out there, but for the most of us DOS is the same as greek. I always wanted to learn DOS but I have never had the time.

[vmxa1]

I always view the macs adds as I people confessing to not know how to use a given opsys and going with one that requires less of you. That is fine, since I have been in computers since 1963, I do not need help via interfaces. Anything you have to do to make it easier to be use cost you system resources, now a days that is not a problem. IBM made a mainframe opsys to help people, it is called MVS, it is very expensive in terms of over head and money. That works for many companies as hard core systems programmers became hard to find and expensive as well.

[GreyRandall]

To start off, I'm a Mac user at home. I've been an Apple user since the Apple ][ (Still have 3 of them in wokring order) While the other half and the kids are all on Windows machines. At work, I'm a PC user (Windows programmer)

I've always believed there's a job for every tool, and a tool for every job. If you're going to make a decision about which platform to be on, there's one thing you need to consider: What am I using this for?

If you're just looking for a glorified game console, then you'd better stick with a PC. They're cheaper, thus more available, thus more games are out there for them.

If you're using it as a multipurpose tool, you can go with either platform.

Microsoft Office, Internet Explorer, AOL, AIM, IRC, ICQ, Netscape, Dreamweaver, Flash, Director, Fireworks, Freehand, PageMaker, Illustrator, FileMaker Pro, Timbuktu, VNC, Quicktime, Canvas, Premier, Photoshop, ImageReady, FrontPage, dBase, PHP, Apache, MySQL, JAVA, JavaScript, Palm Desktop, MasterCook, Acrobat, Ray Dream Studio, Poser, Eudora Internet Mail.

Either currently, or at least at one point, everything listed above was available on both Macs and Windows PCs, so you really can't go wrong with either one.

Pros and Cons
PCs
Pros:
Backwards Compatibility Even though things are rarely put out on floppy diskettes, or printers are switching to Network and USB interfaces, you'll notice that the floppy drive and serial ports are still supported on the PC platform. Additionally, the latest Windows operating systems still provide support for very early (in other words ancient boat anchors) printers. Like the LaserJet IID
Lower CostWhen I purchased my iBook, I noticed that for the purchase price, I could have brought home, or had delivered to my home 2 PCs with monitors, printers, and a CD burner installed.
Cons:
Incompatible Drivers and Software Who would have thought that something like the driver for a Yahama Sound Card would cause a conflict with a coding software application? Or that Norton Antivirus Engine causes conflicts with some server software?
IRQ Conflicts, SCSI drivers that don't work correctly with other items? Ever thing that installing a USB CD Burner, and the software for burning CDs would cause so many conflicts with your installation of Windows 2000 that you couldn't boot? and repair didn't work, and in order not to wipe your whole hard drive, you had to install a SECOND copy of Windows 2000 in another directory?
Nebulous Error Messages Unless you're a serious propeller head, the average person isn't going to understand half of what the BSoD is telling them... Let alone what the General Fault Protection error actually means.
Power Management Conflicts Many PCs now come with Power Management as part of the motherboard BIOS. However, Windows 98 and above also comes with Power Management. Depending on the Motherboard, the BIOS, and the OS, conflicts actually occur which freeze the computer up, create damage on the hard disk, or just unexpectedly cause the computer to shut off or reboot.
Permissions Some things need certain priviledges to run/install applications. Fine if you know what you're doing, not so good if the user happens to be one of your children. Do you really want your 9 year old to have Administrator rights? What about your teenager? Do you want to have to stop what you're doing to install or run things for them? That's going to vary from person to person.
Virus Vulnerability It's far too easy to write a Virus for a Windows based machine, look at the number of Virus alerts out there. Compare the number that affect PCs vs Macs. At home I have two Web Servers, on is running IIS under Windows NT, the other a PowerMac 7200 running WebStar. Not a single successful attempt in 3 years was made on the Mac. The WinNT box got hit by NIMDA, and I've got documentation on a six failed attack attempts

Macintosh
Pros:
Stable OS I'll admit, in the early days of System 6,7, and 8 that there were quite a few bombs when I was running things. However, since the arrival of OS9 and OSX, there haven't been any problems on any of my macs running either OS.
No IRQ Configurations You don't have to worry if your SCSI card conflicts with your NIC, or your Sound Card, or your Video Card, or your Mouse/Joystic/Drawing Tablet, etc.
Built In Sound and Graphics No need to go out to buy a video card or a sound card, and hope it works with everything you've got.
Cons:
Backwards Compatibility Not a major issue if you are purchasing a brand new Macintosh... but for those of us that can't quite afford to do so, this is a major problem, and a major pet peeve of mine. Yes, few people use floppy drives. Few people use serial connected printers and digital cameras. However there are still people out there that have this equipment, still use it, but the latest Macintosh OS has no support or capability built in for this. Unless you have a supported USB or Network capable printer, you cannot print from your older Macintosh if it is running OSX. Unless you download and install a very slow third party utility, you will also have to deal with no floppy... Some people still think it's practical to use a floppy, rather than burn a CD or use a Zip/Jaz disk to store something less than a Meg in size.
Price Though in my personal opinion, the Macintosh is a more superior machine, it's very expensive. I have several Macs. Unfortunately, I cannot afford to upgrade them as fast as people in the PC world can. I'm currently sitting on hold with a Gossamer G3/233. Granted, it can hold it's own against my other half's PC... a 1.5 GHz windows machine that I put together for her. There's no difference in performance, and in some cases, my trusty G3 still does things in Photoshop faster than her speed demon can. But from the days of the Mac II's they've been bloody expensive to upgrade. This is in my opinion why the Performa didn't perform so well. Places like Sears, Price Club/Costco/BJ's stopped carrying them because they were too costly. Would I love one of the latest G4's... You bet. Economy however is in the dumper, jobs aren't paying what they were about two years ago. I'd rather pay my bills and buy groceries every month than upgrade at the moment.
Software availability Mac users, in my opinion, are treated like the red-headed stepchildren of the computer world. Tons of great software out there, lots of demand for it, but it takes bloody forever, if at all for it to get ported over to the Mac. A good example is AOL... Probably the most popular way to connect to the internet, particularly among new computer users.

AOL's ugrade to 4.0 for the PC happened 18 months before the Mac upgrade was even available. the Mac upgrade to 5.0 took even longer.
PC users are now on AOL 8.0 Macintosh users are still languishing with 5.0

Part of the backwards compatibility issue, but drivers... I've seen drivers in Windows 2000 and Windows XP for peripherals that are on display in the Smithsonian. Why? Because these things STILL work!!! I commend the folks at Microsoft for at least keeping that in mind. However, even for these legacy printers that are network capable, you would think that Apple's latest OS would support them. No, it doesn't. And unfortunately, neither will the manufacturers. I'll give two examples.

Epson. Stylus Photo 700... Printer was discontinued, though still a quality piece of equipment. OS 9 as a USB driver for this printer, so you can use it with a USB to parallel cable attached. OSX will see this printer, but only as an unsupported printer. And no. Epson has clearly stated in no way at all will that USB driver be brought over to OSX. HP DeskJet 1600CM Great printer! Works nicely, has a MIO card in it, it can see my appletalk network at home. However does OSX support it? No. Will HP provide support for OSX for it? No. You'll have to use Jim Derry's Printing to Networked Injets fix... and then you won't have control of print quality, or anything else.

Just a side note... you'd think that these companies would remember that keeping customers, particularly the one's that can't afford the upgrades right away, satisfied would keep them as lyal customers... and more likely to come back with money in hand as soon as they are able to upgrade... Nope.. they'd rather leave a lot of people felling shut out, bitter, and going to the competition. Not a wise thing in today's economy and job market, if you ask me.
Permissions Yup, you guessed it... the same problem actually exists on both machines. You need to be the root/Administrator on your OS X mac in order to install some software. I don't want my kids having Administrator level rights to my Mac.
Nebulous Error Messages Yes, another thing they have in common. Some will understand what those characters and numbers mean when a kernel panic happens. And for the previous Mac OS users, the bombs with a numbered error message were often frustrating, particularly to someone that didn't know where to go to find out what those messages meant.


A con for both platforms: RESOURCE HOGGING!!!!
It would seem that nature abhors empty disk space and extra ram. Seems like as the hard drives inside computers got bigger, and that RAM became less expensive and came in higher sizes, that the OS started taking up more space, and more RAM

Both platforms have their good sides, both have their bad sides. Everyone here can give you their opinions... and you know what they say about opinions.

Heh. I'll give you mine.

It's been my experience that the cons in windows, particularly the IRQ and driver conflicts, and unexplained starts and stops, occur more frequently than they do in the Mac. My other half usually has to reboot her PC at least 3 times a day due to memory and resource losses. Unless there's a power failure or one of the teenagers accidentally turns off the outlet switch, I haven't had to restart my Mac unless I was performing a software update, or installing hardware/software.

Think carefully before you make a switch from one platform to another, or an initial purchase. Everyone's mileage may vary from mine when it comes to errors, conflicts, etc. As will yours. You really need to decide what you want, how much you want to pay for it, and how much attention/meaintenance you want to give, and on how regular a basis.

[Txurce]

I have used a Mac since the early 80s, switching from a Kaypro, because I hated IBM. I stuck with them because I had no reason to change. It's the de facto computer for creative types, and that says everything good and bad about it. I miss not playing in the strategy forum tourneys because I'm stuck with 1.21, but the relative isolation has made me a strong deity player. The last two patches didn't visibly affect game play - the main difference seems to boil down to techs being more expensive to buy in 1.29. If that doesn't tempt you into buying a PC, then I wouldn't. I don't hate IBM anymore. Now I hate Microsoft.