Command Nexus: Hive War - Page 2

Drogue · November 19, 2002, 17:17

Sounds like a good idea TKG.

GeneralTacticus · November 20, 2002, 02:10

Trying to get Zakh involved at this stage would be madness - need I remind you that the best military unit we have at this stage is a Recon Rover? By the time we could even get a decent attack force organized, Yang would have Zakharov in a Punishment Sphere already, which would merely weaken us and strengthen him.

Aaron Blackwell · November 20, 2002, 08:42

Hum ... Maybe we should have a good look at the situation before even make plan for action.

Being a new member of the community, I'll try to give you a fresh view on the matter.

Okay, I'll start with an analysis of situation with the information I have.

Sorry in case some of you find it a bit too long.

------------------

UN Positions :

We are located on the west continent of the map. We have quite a few bases there. Most of them are quite small sized ( 3-4 population) with the exception of our capital ( New Apolyton at 6-7).

Our social engineering choices do not allow us to support a lot of unit for free ( running democracy if I am not mistaken). This problem is quite partially solved by the fact that we have a few crawlers haversting minerals.

We do not have a real military force by now ( I think we have no unit with weapons with a firepower greater than one) which is worsened by the fact that our people are not really motivated by war ( -2 morale due to wealth).

There is a sea between us and the Hive and we don't have a fleet ready.

Our energy income is quite low ( Less than a hundred a turn). Our research seems to be ok and it looks like we are more advanced than the hive.

---------------

The Hive Positions :

They have more military power and population than us. They are located on another continent and are very close to the university of planet.

From my lifetime experience at the hive, I know that they have very strong defense ( perimeter defense at each base due to faction bonus).

We do not have infiltrated them so their military and industrial might is unknown to us ( likely to be superior). We do not know ( I think) if they have any treaty or pact with other factions ( well If they are other faction than the ones we know lol

).

The hive possess the command Nexus, coupled with the UN lack of troop training ( + morale bonuses for yang , - moral for us) that means that their troops will be much stronger than ours.

The hive probably possess less energy reserve and income than us ( -2 to economy due to faction maluses) and may thus be less technologicaly advanced than we are ( though we are not sure due to lack of infiltration).

--------------

Conclusion :

If we want to take the Hive base where the command nexus is located, we are going to need to make severe change in our production --> We'll have to create grounds troops for land invasion, sea transports for those troops and sea cruiser to escort those troops.

As we possess nothing of that for the moment, that means it will take us quite some time just to build that. And if our troops set foot on hive continent, they will be at a great disavantage ( less morale, hive underground bunkers, fighting on Hive home turf ....).

Though I would very much like to teach the evil Yang a lesson, I strongly advise against such military measure.

----------------

Proposition :

1*** As a lot of us pointed out, we need to infiltrate them first before deciding any plan of action.

2*** Also, considering the difference in military strength , a direct assault might not be the best solution.

I think we should first reinforce our own defences and have garisons in each of our towns ( like 1-Max defense with either AAA,ECM or Trance).

3*** Likewise, maybe we should consider trying to switch the production in new Suez from the Planetary transit system to the Citizen defence force.

Explanation : Most of our bases are size 3, only a few are size 1 or 2. We have already quite a few bases which means we will not build many new colonies in the future ==> Conclusion. At this time, the benefit from the Planetary transit system is quite small and more geared toward the long term.

On the other hand, getting the citizen defence force quickly will put us on equal footing with the hive as far as base defence is concerned. And may need it quite soon because of the vendetta the Hive has declared on us. ==> Conclusion : As we do not possess a single perimeter defence system, as we possess a lot of colonies and because of the war with the hive, the benefit from the CDF will be quite high and more geared toward the short and middle term.

4*** Instead of going for a pure military approach in the short term ( which Yang is likely to be prepared for), we may favor a "probe" approach to this war.

Let's improve our energy cash flow and use it to subvert whatever unit Yang will try to send us and when going for invasion subvert his bases as well.

5*** We should try to keep good contact with Zak but let's only try to make treaty/pact with them only we are prepared to send some troops to them in case Yang decide to attack their bases.

----------

Well ... That's all for now folks !

Sorry for making such a long message, but , being new here, I felt it was kind like necessary to make a full summary of the war situation with the Hive.

May you forgive me for making such long post

lol

Signed :

Aaron Blackwell

Earwicker · November 20, 2002, 10:20

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Trying to get Zakh involved at this stage would be madness - need I remind you that the best military unit we have at this stage is a Recon Rover? By the time we could even get a decent attack force organized, Yang would have Zakharov in a Punishment Sphere already, which would merely weaken us and strengthen him.

I agree: we don't get our friends involved until we command a formidable army. But the question remains, how long can Zakharov stay on Yang's good side?

DeathByTheSword · November 20, 2002, 15:52

it is a bunch of text from aaron but it is complete and correct! :B: I would like to see a build up of military might and strenght and as DPO candidate i will press the DIA for several units to be build on short notice

Drogue · November 20, 2002, 17:04

Well, all except, Yang has Gatling, and so is possible more technologically advanced than us aswell

I would say keep going for ecological engineering, it helps us so much in infrastructure terms (and building Boreholes becomes something of a possibility) and then SFF. Then we can Probe while on Wealth, and switch to Knowledge to build an attack force (so we get no major penalties from them). He's far enough away not to be too much of a problem now, and when we get SFF a couple of missile foils (or Needlejets soon

) will fend any attack from Yang off. We really don't have too much to worry about at the moment IMO.

Method · November 20, 2002, 17:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Yang has Gatling

does he? must have probed it from the university..

Drogue · November 20, 2002, 17:15

I thought he threatened us with it in the last (short) turnchat, but I could be wrong

Method · November 20, 2002, 17:17

ask joeno, i wasn't paying attention

_{i had a game of SMAC open on the side}

AdamTG02 · November 20, 2002, 22:02

to Archaic regarding the planning of our garrisons.

As far as the CDF goes, I don't think we need to switch production in New Suez. Why not switch New Apolyton to the CDF, and bring back enough crawlers so that we're not creating eco-damage, using them to rush production? Even without brining the crawlers back, we'd have little trouble getting the CDF in New Apolyton, as it's producing above tolerance, and thus likely above anything the AI can muster at this point.

GeneralTacticus · November 21, 2002, 01:59

Quote:

Well, all except, Yang has Gatling, and so is possible more technologically advanced than us aswell

No, he's not. We're officially the most advanced faction on Planet at this time.

Aaron Blackwell · November 21, 2002, 08:39

Well,

Maybe he meant that Yang was MILITARY more advanced than we are.

But still I agree that we are more techonologically advanced in general than the Hive.

Earwicker · November 21, 2002, 09:25

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamTG02
As far as the CDF goes, I don't think we need to switch production in New Suez.

Good call! I'd hate to see us lose out on an excellent infrastructure-booster like the PTS (considering we do have lots of new base locations chosen) in anticipation of an invasion that may never come. There are other strategies we can pursue to still get the CDF before we need it. The key to defeating Yang will be to intercept his invasion en route and kill his invaders in the open, not to turtle inside our bases.

Aaron Blackwell · November 21, 2002, 10:37

I maintain what I said about the PTS, that its benefit would be quite minimal considering our current situation.

Considering that we are running Democracy-Planned, we have already a growth rate of +4 on the Social engineering table => New founded bases will grow VERY FAST. ( even without pop boom).

Considering that we can support new colonies with crawlers (which we should build anyway), Children Creche can quickly be built in them => VERY EASY POP BOOM for each base.

The only added benefit of the PTS is to make each new founded base at size 3=> Less than a pop boom.

My point is that the PTS will make a very small difference as far as Pop growth is concerned and a small difference in general

On the other, building the CDF will ensure that none of our newly built base will be easy to conquer should Yang manage to slip some troops through the sea without us seeing them.
Plus, it will allow these bases to start directly building colony ehancement infrastructure (energy bank, recreation commons, Recycling tanks) without wasting time building all those perimiters defences.

Besides, as we have not infiltrated Yang and possess no information on his military operations, we can only speculate as to what he is doing now.

If we take the assumption that he is not sending us any troops, and we are wrong, the result will be that our bases will not be prepared for defence and we may lose a few of them. And reconquering those bases will cost us quite a lot of resources which will not be spent on improving our cities. => A mistake in this case can cost us dearly.

If we take the assumption that he might be attacking soon, prepare for it with CDF and upgrading a few garrison and Yang does not attack, the only thing we will lose is a few turn and some credits to upgrade those garissons. => A mistake here does not cost us much.

Calculated risk citizen, calculated risk.

Besides, switching production from a SP to another will not cost us a single mineral and with the high production of some of our bases, we will definitely be able to build the PTS later AT A MORE APPROPRIATE TIME. ( that is when we will actually start producing loads of colony pods).

We must also take into account that most of our coastal cities are ill protected but have the potential of very High mineral production. => Losing one or several of those bases to Yang will mean that he will be able to summon reinforcement directly from the heart of our nation !!

Considering all those points, I will stand to my opinion which I will now summarize

- Let's build the CDF first and updgrade a few of our garisons ( in the most exposed cities). When done, we will be free to build more infrastructure, cities .... faction development in general that will help us later on build the army force we need to wipe the hive from the face of planet

Of course, I would gladly like to hear opposing point of view on this matter as well as their argumentations.

Cheers

NB : Oops sorry if I am getting a little carried away, another very long post from me ... again.

)

Drogue · November 21, 2002, 13:50

I disagree. We are still founding many bases at the moment, but that will soon stop (we'll run out of places to build) and we also have a few size 2 bases that PTS will help. The PTS will become less useful as time goes on, but the CDF will help a lot later on if we need to go to war. New Apolyton can build the CDF in very few turns, especially with a few other bases helping with crawler support. Keep New Suez building the PTS, we won't need the CDF for another few turns at least anyway.

moomin · November 21, 2002, 14:37

PTS isn't all that valuable to us right now, while CDF is. But there is great value in denying Yang the PTS - his dismal little commie dictature has trouble with growth, and PTS helps him no end.

Aaron Blackwell · November 21, 2002, 16:38

The PTS system will add population to all bases below size 3 ??

I did not knew that, if that's the case, it does in fact increase the value of the project.

As for the colony pods that are being built ... okay, if you say that plenty are being built ... well I'll have to trust you

( I haven't seen every report on the situation).

In fact, my primary concern, is to have the CDF built in a very near future as well as having decent garrison for base defence ( which we do not have right now).

That's why I play devil's advocate to push people to do something to quickly solve that problem.

If the defence problem is solved in the near future, I'll be pretty happy.

That is my only concern for the moment.

But let's get real ... More than a hundred years and we still do not have proper defence

Sorry, but after what I saw when I was living at the hive , I was a little bit scared

Cheers

Aaron Blackwell

NB : I know it is a bit out of topic, but could someone be gentle enough to show me where is the Chironian News Network ? I would like to propose my help in that department and I need a few microkred to buy me a beer at the recreation common

Drogue · November 21, 2002, 18:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
The PTS system will add population to all bases below size 3 ??

No, I think it reduces drones at bases under size 3 though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
As for the colony pods that are being built ... okay, if you say that plenty are being built ... well I'll have to trust you

( I haven't seen every report on the situation).

I think at the last count we had 16 in build queues! I think this has been reduced, but we dont have that much of the continant left, and most other places will have been taken up by other factions soon.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
But let's get real ... More than a hundred years and we still do not have proper defence

Is that so abnormal. We haven't needed a decent defence yet, so spending precious minerals and time on it seemed needless until now. I agree we should think about upgrading garrisons, but we need to keep infrastructure and facilities going aswell IMHO.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
Sorry, but after what I saw when I was living at the hive , I was a little bit scared

Well, you know better than the rest of us. I think waiting until we have infiltration in place to see what Yang has up his sleave. Does he have a large standing army, or is he all talk and no trousers?

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
NB : I know it is a bit out of topic, but could someone be gentle enough to show me where is the Chironian News Network ? I would like to propose my help in that department and I need a few microkred to buy me a beer at the recreation common

If you want to help with CNN I think this: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=63750 is the thread. Or talk to Darkness' Edge or GeneralTacticus, I think they organise it, though I could be wrong

(haven't been here too long myself)

Method · November 21, 2002, 20:55

if that's not the link, it's in the directory

GeneralTacticus · November 22, 2002, 02:08

Quote:

If you want to help with CNN I think this: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=63750 is the thread. Or talk to Darkness' Edge or GeneralTacticus, I think they organise it, though I could be wrong (haven't been here too long myself)

DE organizes it, I just send in reports from the DoFA.

Earwicker · November 22, 2002, 09:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
The PTS system will add population to all bases below size 3 ??

I did not knew that, if that's the case, it does in fact increase the value of the project.

Yep, that's one of the great benefits of the SP. Upon completion of the PTS, all your size 1 or 2 bases immediately grow to 3. A nice little turbo boost! And new bases start at 3. And all bases size 3 and under have one fewer drone. It rocks!

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
As for the colony pods that are being built ...

There are many on their way (16?!, didn't realize we had that many good base sites waiting) as well as a number of great places to put them where food can already support a size-3 base.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
In fact, my primary concern, is to have the CDF built in a very near future as well as having decent garrison for base defence ( which we do not have right now).

I don't dispute the need for defense, and agree that the CDF is going to be a key part of our survival. But so is expansion and growth, and it seems that the competition for the PTS is stiffer than the competition for CDF. As long as we have it in place when (if) any Hive troops show up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
But let's get real ... More than a hundred years and we still do not have proper defence

I agree with Drogue. So far, our defensive needs have been against wild mindworms - against which armor and weapons are irrelevant. We will soon be in a position to prototype formidable military units, and in time to make a difference in the war effort.

Aaron Blackwell · November 22, 2002, 09:55

I do not dispute the fact that there was no real need for military upgrade so far.

But one thing to bear in mind in that department is that you need to be ready BEFORE any kind invasion comes your way.

Delaying too much our military improvment leaves us prone to surprise attack which can be very damaging to our infrastructure.

Hum .... Maybe we should open a new thread to make the summary of all the upgrades we can already have and those we could prototypes in a near future and decide how much of our any reserves we could devote to it so that it doesn't affect our infrastructure development.

What do you think ?

Earwicker · November 22, 2002, 10:40

Good idea! It would be simplest to take care of that in one fell swoop than having dozens of individual polls.

And I agree completely that our defense needs attention - it's just a question of the right timing. Our probe will reach the nearest hive base in a few turns, giving us a much better idea of the urgency of the situation.

Kirov · November 23, 2002, 01:24

One question OOC - is it possible to probe transport full of cargo? IIRC the answer is yes, but I'm not sure...But we could try to subvert Hive invaders in the full sea, if it is needed...

GeneralTacticus · November 23, 2002, 01:26

I don't think so, you may be thinking of being able to board and capture loaded transports.

Method · November 23, 2002, 14:33

which is a feature of SMAX, not regular SMAC. IIRC, you can't probe a transport full of units

Earwicker · November 27, 2002, 10:08

You can't - it's like trying to probe a stack.

In SMAX you can use a marine detachment to capture a loaded transport, but we aren't in that game . . .