Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY - Page 9

Velociryx · December 7, 2002, 05:18

Why the news item was written has ZERO to do with the point regarding why New Zealand and Australia will not currently carry the game, does it?

The fact as reported is that he had to order the game online, cos his country and the country next door won't let the game onto their shores.

And the *reason* cited for this....the reason given for why those two countries won't let the game in as it stands is that what's described on the box is different than what's inside.

But that's not what you want to hear, so it is not enough.

And, I suspect that no matter what evidence you ask me to bring to table, that also will not be enough.

I have no wish to re-spark a flame war here, but I respectfully submit the notion that because the information contained in the news item runs counter to your position, you are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to what it represents.

The very thing I was accused of not many posts ago.

You said earlier that you would like to continue discussing this topic, but would prefer to keep it at a higher level. Your tone suggests, however, that flames are once more about to erupt.

Because of that, I believe the only course left open for me would be to retire from this thread as well, lest my continued presence here re-ignite a flame war I do not wish to see.

Again, apologies to all for the previous flames.

-=Vel=-

notyoueither · December 7, 2002, 05:23

Give me a source for this ridiculousness, please.

So far, all we have is Horsie running around being an ass. That does not count.

Again, what other IT company has been prosecuted under these laws, when the fix is available online? Site them, please.

Until I see that, you and others have fallen victim to a Horsie troll. Too bad.

WarpStorm · December 7, 2002, 08:37

While NZ Consumer Rights law is better than the equivalent US laws, I doubt that is why it is held up. The law mainly specifies that if a product does not work as specified that it be fixed in a reasonable time or that you can get your money back. The EULA for PTW already has these provisions in it, so I don't see how that would be a hold up.

player1 · December 7, 2002, 09:18

People will always buy flawed products if companies which release them have good patching policy.

Like Firaxis.

It has probably something to do with "give me now, patch later" moto.

Just look MOO3 boards. Some fans are so deperate to get game, that they would rather have game NOW with bugs patched later, then wit just a little bit more for the game.

P.S.
I don't consider Civ3 nor PtW flawed at release, only a little bit buggy, but that's just personnal opinion NOT a fact (broken or not is thing of PREFERENCE).

vondrack · December 7, 2002, 10:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
The fact as reported is that he had to order the game online, cos his country and the country next door won't let the game onto their shores.

And the *reason* cited for this....the reason given for why those two countries won't let the game in as it stands is that what's described on the box is different than what's inside.

Just to know what we are talking about, here is the precise wording of the news item, grabbed from the Poly news page:

It appears the problem in New Zealand (and Australia) is that it does not pass consumer standards in its current out-of-the-box status, that is to say, the box is false advertising! So most shops will have a "cleaner" version in shops at about mid-January.

...says The Rusty Gamer (TRG). Sadly enough, the Infogrames Australia has nothing on this issue, just mentions the January 10th release date. Even a 60 minute thorough Google search lead to exactly zero results regarding the issue for me (OTOH, I did find the favourable PtW review by Steve Polak on GamePower Australia, mentioned also on the Poly news page). Anyone having verified information on the subject? Fellow Poly Australians?

SMIFFGIG · December 7, 2002, 10:33

Quote:

What I WANT is a game that is a worthy succesor to Civ 2. Even after five patches (more to come?) for Civ 3 and PTW combined, we do not have it.

Dont we all (ok maybe not all as some people accept Civ3 as a worthy successor

) well im not one of those Sid Meier fanatics, i really did have high hopes for Civ3 but was utterly let down by it when i was foolish enough to buy it

. I have PTW (b4 anyone critises i didnt buy it) and that is truely awful (along with Civ3. Civ3 does have some very good points and concepts but thats about all i can say about it, those points and concepts are minimal and meaningless really compared to the other flaws and bad points and concepts of the game

however down to the point of this post, Corocle i dont know if you have tried it already (probably not as most people strangely havent) but if you want the closest thing to a Civ2 successor try modded CtP2, its superb. Ask Velociryx he can tell you what i mean (or just read one of his threads on the CtP2 forum.

Anyway i hope you try it, I can understand your frustration with this game (Civ3) and the fact your in such minority on this forum i can imagine how hard it is to express your points without it being hammered down everytime (just hope that outside browsers of this forum see your post before buying Civ3 to get a fairer concept of what Civ3 and PTW are really like

-James

Alexander's Horse · December 7, 2002, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Give me a source for this ridiculousness, please.

So far, all we have is Horsie running around being an ass. That does not count.

Again, what other IT company has been prosecuted under these laws, when the fix is available online? Site them, please.

Until I see that, you and others have fallen victim to a Horsie troll. Too bad.

It doesn't matter what fanboys like you think. The game has been delayed because its illegally defective.

Everyone unhappy with the state of the game should contact their local product standard and consumer protection authorities.

Maybe next time Infogames will Beta test their product before inflicting it on consumers.

Cyclotron · December 7, 2002, 19:49

An ill-concealed dodge of the question. Where is your source? Your proof?

notyoueither · December 7, 2002, 20:02

ditto cyclotron7

Troll some more Horse. Your say so does not make it happen.

Alexander's Horse · December 7, 2002, 20:41

The release has been delayed here hasn't it? Give it up, you lost, get over it

notyoueither · December 7, 2002, 21:30

(6 December 2002, 14:25 | Civ3) New Zealand citizen The Rusty Gamer (TRG) has written in reporting that he has received his copy of Civilization III: Play The World as ordered through Gameplanet`s (GP) online operation there. On a note related to its delayed availability in the Pacific Ocean state, TRG says:

It appears the problem in New Zealand (and Australia) is that it does not pass consumer standards in its current out-of-the-box status, that is to say, the box is false advertising! So most shops will have a "cleaner" version in shops at about mid-January.

GP is is selling the expansion pack still for the online pre-order price of $59.95NZ -- the regular and store price is $10NZ more. GP`s physical store in the country is located at 184 Dominion Road in Mt. Eden, Auckland. - DanQ

So, how is it that a company physically located in New Zealand is selling it then Horse, huh? Care to explain that? Huh? Could you site something? No? Didn't think so.

You are backing into this conversation Horsie. It is not your better end that is showing.

Alexander's Horse · December 7, 2002, 21:43

Would you like to get someone to read that news item to you slowly?

moron.

notyoueither · December 7, 2002, 21:48

News item? Hardly qualifies. Rusty Gamer repeating your lunatic ramblings does not accuracy make. The 'news' was that it was available in New Zealand.

Now how about it Horsie, can you back yourself up, or are you just trolling as usual?

Alexander's Horse · December 7, 2002, 21:59

Look I'm not Vel - I'm not getting into a Yes it is, No it isn't discussion with you.

Your poor English comprehension is your problem fanboy

notyoueither · December 7, 2002, 22:05

Do you make a habit of returning to threads to repeat the same babble?

I guess that would be one way to rack up 10K posts.

Velociryx · December 9, 2002, 16:54

At the risk of getting yelled at, I humbly point to today's headlines as further evidence that it just might be a smidgeon important that what's on the box resemble what you get when you install.

I further point to the (indirect) evidence that the game store physically located in NZ but selling the game online is doing so in a bit of a sneaky way ("the sign says "coming soon" but they actually have it....just click there and you can order.")

If they have it, and are allowed to sell it normally, then why the hush-hush?

Just a couple observations before retiring again, and if I hear back from the NZ Ministry of Consumer Affairs (you know how government agencies are), I'll post the reply here as well.

-=Vel=-

FNBrown · December 9, 2002, 17:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
At the risk of getting yelled at, I humbly point to today's headlines as further evidence that it just might be a smidgeon important that what's on the box resemble what you get when you install.

I further point to the (indirect) evidence that the game store physically located in NZ but selling the game online is doing so in a bit of a sneaky way ("the sign says "coming soon" but they actually have it....just click there and you can order.")

If they have it, and are allowed to sell it normally, then why the hush-hush?

Just a couple observations before retiring again, and if I hear back from the NZ Ministry of Consumer Affairs (you know how government agencies are), I'll post the reply here as well.

-=Vel=-

Here's the headline Vel's talking about:

IG ITALY: MISLEADING BOX COVER

(9 December 2002, 15:07 | Civ3) A misleading box cover for the Italian version of Civilization III: Play The World is resulting in scorn being projected onto Infogrames Italy (IG-IT). As Voyager`s Site wrote in and posted about earlier, there are a notable discrepancy and a deception either intentional or unintentional in nature that has resulted in much frustration over compatibility with other PTW language versions.

First, unlike its English and German counterparts, the front of the Italian box cover of PTW does not state Expansion Pack in the yellow stripe bringing to customers` attention that the game`s full version is required to play. Only on the back cover is this information revealed. The System Requirements box does not even mention this either.

Finally, in what has added injury to insult, the Italian PTW version can only be installed with its language namesake of the original Civilization III and not the English version. This is contrary to what is advertised on the box, which states that the Infogrames Italy version of the expansion pack is compatible with the English CivIII variant. IG-IT has not yet publicly responded to these criticisms. - DanQ

This would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Imagine being a parent, knowing little about video games, and buying this for your kid for Christmas. Said child opens and installs the game (without having the prior version of Civ3) and can't play it. What a bummer.

Can't blame Firaxis for this one... international box designs and marketing are clearly well within the realm of Infogrames (I still haven't seen a definition for "Infograme" - feel free to post your suggestions).

IG has a game, nay, a veritable franchise, with hordes of devoted fans who are willing to spend more than reasonable sums of money to support it, and they're basically screwing the proverbial poodle...

asleepathewheel · December 9, 2002, 17:26

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown

Can't blame Firaxis for this one... international box designs and marketing are clearly well within the realm of Infogrames (I still haven't seen a definition for "Infograme" - feel free to post your suggestions).

Ok, from Dictionary.com, I think you will like the definition of grame:

1 entry found for grame.
grame

\Grame\, n. [See Gram, a.] 1. Anger; wrath; scorn. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

2. Sorrow; grief; misery. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

[insert joke here]

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown
IG has a game, nay, a veritable franchise, with hordes of devoted fans who are willing to spend more than reasonable sums of money to support it, and they're basically screwing the proverbial poodle...

Is it a wonder why they're being delisted from NASDAQ? How incompetent can one company be? Incorrect boxes (oh, I need the original game in such language? thanks for warning me), incompatible patches abroad. What other screwups can there be? All of this stuff is squarely on their shoulders, as they handle all localizations and marketing. Blah.

I feel bad for the firaxians that they have to deal with such chumps.

FNBrown · December 9, 2002, 17:34

Quote:

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

Ok, from Dictionary.com, I think you will like the definition of grame:

1 entry found for grame.
grame

\Grame\, n. [See Gram, a.] 1. Anger; wrath; scorn. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

2. Sorrow; grief; misery. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

[insert joke here]

I never thought to look up "grame," and I didn't believe it until I looked it up myself.

Here's the definition for "info:"

info

n : a message received and understood that reduces the recipient's uncertainty

So, perhaps we can assume that the definition should read something like:

Infograme

n: a message received and understood that produces certain anger, wrath, and scorn in its recipient.

Sounds dead-on to me.

Velociryx · December 9, 2002, 17:38

Now THAT is pure gold!

-=Vel=-

ChaotikVisions · December 9, 2002, 17:43

lol, It all makes sense now.

asleepathewheel · December 9, 2002, 17:43

I hope that the meaning of Grame is different in French, but even then, they should vet the meaning in English, as that is their largest market.

Just fricking drop the r and it would be ok, but they had to get fancy. All style and no substance I suppose

vondrack · December 9, 2002, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
I further point to the (indirect) evidence that the game store physically located in NZ but selling the game online is doing so in a bit of a sneaky way ("the sign says "coming soon" but they actually have it....just click there and you can order.")

If they have it, and are allowed to sell it normally, then why the hush-hush?

Even though I am not able to completely rule out the possibility of problems with some ridiculous consumer protection laws (I found exactly zero information on this, despite doing my best to find something), I believe that this has a bit more ordinary reason. The official release date - whatever the reason for pushing it so far - has been set to January 11 (for AU & NZ markets). Any retailer selling the game now must be selling the US or UK version, most probably coming from grey (unauthorized) imports. It is wiser to NOT advertise such thing, as they could easily get into a conflict with Infogrames Australia, possibly losing their reseller status or something...

Cyclotron · December 9, 2002, 20:28

Well, I was originally dismayed to see this thread rear it's ugly head again... but I think we have all come to a common agreement, and that would be... Infogrames sucks.

Happy now?

Hagbart · December 10, 2002, 13:08

I'm glad it's not released here yet... what a mess!

Zero-Tau · December 10, 2002, 16:25

At least we just get the UK version shipped over here. It should work okay.

WarpStorm · December 10, 2002, 17:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Hagbart
I'm glad it's not released here yet...

Really? I've been having a whole lot of fun with it for quite a while now.

Alexander's Horse · December 15, 2002, 00:17

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack

Even though I am not able to completely rule out the possibility of problems with some ridiculous consumer protection laws .

Consumer laws are not ridiculous - they protect consumers from the kind of shabby behaviour Infogames has handed out to civ fans ever since they bought the franchise.

Once your economy matures and you throw off the shackles of communist prole "I'll take what I can get" thinking, you will realise the value of consumer laws

vondrack · December 15, 2002, 04:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Consumer laws are not ridiculous - they protect consumers from the kind of shabby behaviour Infogames has handed out to civ fans ever since they bought the franchise.

Once your economy matures and you throw off the shackles of communist prole "I'll take what I can get" thinking, you will realise the value of consumer laws

SOME "consumer-protection laws" are VERY ridiculous, believe me. Like the one that suggests translating all the manuals for whatever you sell into the local language (we do have such a law here, even if it is - fortunately - currently interpreted pretty reasonably with respect to software). Just imagine what it means... if your client needs a specialized piece of software worth $20, produced by a US company (i.e. in English)... you get it for him, paying with your VISA online, and then have to hire a translator and have the full docs translated (at the cost of hundreds of dollars). That is just plain RIDICULOUS.

I consider many laws like this stupid, because their sole purpose is to "protect" stupid people from their own stupidity (or inability to realize what they are doing when buying this or that), while in fact they just make things more complicated for normal people.

And for the record, I would consider a law that would make selling software, that includes bugs, illegal RIDICULOUS. Every piece of software contains at least one bug. Thus, software sales would be illegal as a whole.

That's why software is never sold as a "product" (like a refrigerator), but always as a "license" or "permission" (like a library access) to use it AS IS. Just read EULAs, it is always there.

I do hope that the smilie at the end of your post meant you were not serious about the last sentence

.

Panag · December 15, 2002, 13:24

hi ,

it would be nice to know what Sid or firaxis is going to do about infogreed , ......

squize the heck out of them Sid

have a nice day