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Old November 24, 2002, 11:23   #121
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Italy and Japan were Germany's allies. Finland was Germany's co-belligerent. There's a difference, you know.
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Old November 24, 2002, 11:32   #122
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co-billegerant or ally, use what title u want, its like king or emperor (almost same thing).
the important thing is that u helped germany.
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Old November 24, 2002, 12:10   #123
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Re: The shame nations of WWII.
Quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22

Which were the countries which colaborated with the nazis and helped actively in the killing of peoples and the extermination of Jews?
And when did we "actively help" in killing Jews?
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I know 4.
Really?

Paiktis:

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Old November 24, 2002, 12:35   #124
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I didn't expect a troll about the two fascist dictatorships of Greece by chegitz, no I didn't. Because the first in 1936 was supported by the English to establish the domination of the right against the democratic forces and the first thing it did was lock up all the communists. And the second, in 1967, was enforced to the country with exactly the same goals, only it was supported by the US this time. The vast majority of the population was opposed to them. However, when the Italans invaded Epire in 1940 and when the Turks invaded Cyprus in 1974 respectively, the people were willing to fight, even under those regimes and were more willing to fight than their leadership was. During the German invasion in April 1941, many officers who were fascists with an admiration for Germany were defeatist and went for a quick surrender, forming a quisling government afterwards. In 1974 it is well known that the juntists themselves provoked the Attila, by trying to overthrow Makarios.

As for the Greek Jews: my own estimation is that they were unfortunate enough to be the 2nd biggest minority in a country with a very high ethnic homogeneity, which means they were sticking out of the bunch. Furthermore, they were unfortunately cncentrated into the urban areas and specifically in the city of Thessaloniki, which meant that they were ripe for the picking and could not be under the protection of the guelillas, who controlled most of the countryside by 1944. The quick collapse of the Macedonian front in April of 1941 did not give them enough time to flee, but I guess that even if they had time, most of them would not have fled, since the extent of the Holocaust was not widely known in the Allied side that early into the war. And last but not least, Thessaloniki in 1941 was in Greek hands only for about 30 years, meaning the Jews of the city did not have enough time to blend in.

I don't say that the collaborators were not to blame for that too. Many of them took advantage of it, in order to steal the Jewish properties. What's maddening me however is that the Allies, after setting foot in Greece, helped the collaborators of the Germans back into their positions, since they were the most loyal anti-communist elements. During the civil war, the various "chites" and "tagmatasfalites" who were hunting down communists were the same people that were the puppet troops of the Germans.
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Old November 24, 2002, 13:44   #125
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Read any history of the war in Italy, the French where tough moutain fighters, the US didn't even have a single moutain division till late in the war.

The US and Britsh way was unsuited to Italy.

The same is true of Southern France, the Rhone valley and the area around Colmar, rough terrain, and the French were masters here.


----------------------------------------------
OK, I understand what you are saying...I thought you were saying that units such as the French 2nd Armored under Leclerc outfought equivalent US units in that sector. I'd agree that the French alpine troops were superior, but I'd disagree with a statement saying French armor and other units operating further north were superior.

My grandfather has the highest regard for the French forces he fought with near Colmar. He says the French armor there was the most aggressive and effective he saw during the war. And this is from a man who fought alongside Patton's tanks in the Ardennes and against SS armor.

As an infantryman he especially appreciated the fact that French tanks would actually lead the way into battle instead of waiting for the infantry to go ahead and reveal where all the traps were.

BTW, when I said that Denmark and Holland might have contributed more volunteers to the Axis than to the Allies, I did not mean to imply that they were collaborationist, only that they had tiny armies that were forced to surrender quickly.

Denmark really had no effective army at all and thus any volunteers would mean that they fall into this category. This is not really a shame to Denmark: they could not possibly have raised an army capable of resisting Germany, so why waste money building one at all?
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Old November 24, 2002, 13:48   #126
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the topic is shame nations of ww2 right?
that goes for everything.
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:08   #127
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Originally posted by Ming
Serb and David Floyd...

CHILL... stop your petty bickering and threadjacking.

I don't care who started it, but I'm ending it right now.

The next one of you that continues this ANYWHERE in these forums is going to get restricted.
Oh, come on, we donít fight, we are just playing and I'm absolutely chill.
David, tell to him that we are not enemies.


As for threadjack, I'm absolutely agree.
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:26   #128
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Originally posted by Stefu


Finland was never an ally of Germany. It was Germany's co-belligerent.
You must be joking, right?
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:36   #129
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There wasn't a treaty of alliance between Finland and Germany.
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:40   #130
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we are just playing
If you consider what you were doing "playing"... then play somewhere else, because if you continue to "play" here, you will get restricted again...
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:47   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vanguard

Denmark really had no effective army at all and thus any volunteers would mean that they fall into this category. This is not really a shame to Denmark: they could not possibly have raised an army capable of resisting Germany, so why waste money building one at all?
This raises a question: Where was Denmark diplomatically prior to WWII? If it were in the anti-German alliance that Britain and France put together in 1939, they were asking for it.
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:48   #132
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The way I like to think about Finland's participation in WW2 is that the big countries wanted to screw us, but we pulled a fast one on all those who tried to.
The one country I can say acted reasonably fair was the US, who never even declared war.
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Old November 24, 2002, 15:52   #133
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If you consider what you were doing "playing"... then play somewhere else, because if you continue to "play" here, you will get restricted again...


Why do you threaten two peaceful civilians who had conversation about their past conversation?
It's so cruel.
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:01   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
There wasn't a treaty of alliance between Finland and Germany.
And it somehow changes the fact that their forces fought together?
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:06   #135
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Hey Serb, what do you think Finland should have done once it found out Stalin's intention to make it another oppressed satellite state?
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:16   #136
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I donít have any desire to start another ďthe reasons of Winter warĒ thread. Iím going to
...and btw, 1939 and 1941 is a bit different years and wars.
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:22   #137
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Oh sure 41 was a tad different, but you reap what you sow. I'm really not going to feel ashamed that my nation decided to take advantage of the situation to ensure its continued survival.
Why do you think Finland left both Leningrad and the Murmansk railway alone, even to the point of having to fight against troops equipped with Lend-Lease materiel?
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:42   #138
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Serb, honestly, do you know the difference of the words a co-belligerent and an ally? This was a rhethorical question.
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Old November 24, 2002, 16:59   #139
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Obviously, Russia was never in a position of weakness where both sides wanted to take you out. Its hard to know how difficult it is to survive a war where everyone is against you when your own country wasnt in such a position.
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Old November 24, 2002, 20:21   #140
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Wasn't Finland granted independence by the Soviets after 1917. Didn't the Finnish actually take part in the October Revolution? Didn't the Finnish troops take the side of the Bolsheviks, along with many other military units? Do you doubt that, had the October Revolution not happened, Finland might still be part of the Russian empire?

I feel that the most shameful nations are those who jumped into the war in 1945, just before it ended, just in time to be on the winning side. Turkey comes to mind as the most important of such nations. The whole South American continent too.
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Old November 24, 2002, 21:39   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned


This raises a question: Where was Denmark diplomatically prior to WWII? If it were in the anti-German alliance that Britain and France put together in 1939, they were asking for it.
they tried to stay neutral, just like norway. but the germans had other intentions...
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Old November 25, 2002, 00:58   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
By the war's end the French would have a million men under arms, the French resistance was renamed the FFI (French forces of the Interior) and were considered part of the Army.
France had enough forces to form a genuine Army (Southern sector of Alsace/Lorraine, near Mulhouse), French forces were the first to cross the Rhine, and the first into Germany.
By 1945 they had two armies in the field. The First, which you describe above, under Gen Lattre de Tassigny, in the 7th army group, and the 2nd which was investing and sieging the bypassed frotified ports on the Atlantic coast of France. The Frech did do a amazing job of rapidaly incorperating tens of thousands of FFI personnel into regular formations in 44 & 45. (An the USA did an amzing job of equiping them.)
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Old November 25, 2002, 01:02   #143
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Hmmm. Do you have a source for that claim? I could be wrong, but it seems rather doubtful (when applied to France, the others are undoubtedly correct).
I used Keegan's "Dirty Little Secrets of World War II" as a source.
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Old November 25, 2002, 01:12   #144
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A number of former allied countries actually supplied more troops for the axis cause than for the allies. Included among these were France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, and Greece.
There may have been a time window (part of 41 & 42) when there were more French (a few divisions at most, in Russia and elswhere IIRC) severing with the axis than with the Allies, but this was much smaller than their deployments earlier (40) and later (43, 44, & 45) with the allies.
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Old November 25, 2002, 01:45   #145
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Quote:
Wasn't Finland granted independence by the Soviets after 1917.
Yes.

Quote:
Didn't the Finnish actually take part in the October Revolution?
No.

Quote:
Didn't the Finnish troops take the side of the Bolsheviks, along with many other military units?
No.

Quote:
Do you doubt that, had the October Revolution not happened, Finland might still be part of the Russian empire?
What's it matter? Lenin offered Finland independence in hopes that the proletariat revolution would sweep Finland, too (like it tried to in 1918.) If the Red revolution had worked, Finland would have became part of the Soviet Union - de facto or de jure.
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Old November 25, 2002, 02:03   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola

There may have been a time window (part of 41 & 42) when there were more French (a few divisions at most, in Russia and elswhere IIRC) severing with the axis than with the Allies, but this was much smaller than their deployments earlier (40) and later (43, 44, & 45) with the allies.
I do think he included volunteers for local militia and military construction formations.
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Old November 25, 2002, 05:13   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I do think he included volunteers for local militia and military construction formations.
The Germans (naturally) put POW's to use for construction duties, in factories and as help for farmers. But I can hardly see how those hundred of thousand POWs could be compared with regular army troops.
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Old November 25, 2002, 08:11   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Anyhow, it would be interesting how large and extensive Norwegian resistance against the Nazis was.
I don't have any exact figures, but here's a pretty rough summary:

On the morning of April 9th, 1940, the German forces bound for Oslo were delayed by the sinking of the cruiser BlŁcher by the coastal fortress at Oscarsborg. Consequently, the German plan to capture our king and government failed, and they all escaped before the Germans forces took control of Oslo. Before leaving, the government received an ultimatum from the German ambassador demanding unconditional surrender and acceptance of German occupation. They refused, and when the ambassador told them that this would lead to war, the Norwegian prime minister calmly answered that "The war is already underway."

The legally elected government of Norway then proceeded to issue a general mobilization order before fleeing the capital, along with the entire royal family. They made their way north and eventually escaped to London, from where they continued serving as a government in excile for the duration of the war.

Meanwhile, Vidkun Quisling & Co formed a nazi government backed by the Germans. They supposedly ran the country during the occupation, but most people considered them a bunch of traitors and never recognized them as a legitimate government.

The mobilization ordered by the exciled government was "too little, too late", of course. Our armed forces were ill-prepared, and they were really no match for the well-equipped, highly professional and determined forces of the enemy. Nevertheless, within the first few hours of the mobilization, thousands of men reported in to fight the invaders. The army, unfortunately, didn't even have enough rifles for all of them, and most units didn't last long. They were either lost in battle or surrendered in the face of overwhelming enemy strength. However, small pockets of resistance continued to bother the enemy for weeks, and the Germans took some losses in ambushes and other hit-and-run style actions by the outclassed Norwegians. The Norwegian army continued to fight against overwhelming odds for about two months, finally surrendering after the king and government had safely left the country in the beginning of June. A "peace treaty" was signed in Trondheim on June 10th and the armed forces still remaining in Norway were completely demobilized. From that point on, the resistance went underground...

As others have already mentioned, there were several groups of guerillas and saboteurs operating inside Norway. Also, many Norwegians left the country to join the allied armies abroad, in spite of German threats to shoot anyone attempting to do so.

Like I said, Quisling & Co were never a legitimate government of this country. Some people collaborated, yes, but all of them were traitors, and many were tried as such after the occupation ended in 1945.

Most people opposed the occupation any way they could - if only by not collaborating. My grandfather and his brothers worked at their father's farm during the day and did various illegal work during the night. They didn't fight in many great battles, but they helped smuggle people into and out of the country, get supplies to the people up in the mountains, gather information, etc. Their father was pissed at them for being slow and lazy in the mornings. It wasn't until after the war that he found out why...
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Old November 25, 2002, 10:23   #149
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Vidkun got executed at the end of the war too

The last stand was at Narvik, i'll try figure out when they surrendered (might be 10th june).
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Old November 25, 2002, 10:27   #150
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The Germans (naturally) put POW's to use for construction duties, in factories and as help for farmers. But I can hardly see how those hundred of thousand POWs could be compared with regular army troops.
They also raised voluntary units, especially from France. Since the Vichy regime ordered the opposition of allied landings in Africa during Operation Torch then the Vichy forces were also considered as Axis military.
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