Should Minister Discussions Be Public?

Jon Shafer · November 23, 2002, 21:03

'Poly has a rule that any content of a PM may be kept private if the sender of it wishes it to be. This poll is to see if everyone consents that any information discussed between ministers of different teams will be considered 'fair game' to be revealed. While this may seem somewhat obvious, we have to work within the red tape, and follow the rules.

If yes passes, then it will be considered that each PM sent within context of this, the PTW Demo Game, by any member of the game gives his consent that the contents may be revealed to whoever the recipient wishes.

In English, that means that anyone who gets a PM regarding PTW Demo Game material can share the contents with anyone he wants to.

5 Days.

Meshelic · November 23, 2002, 21:59

Reveal your opponents PM, face the penalty of ticking them off and possibly starting a war....
Don't reveal your opponents PM, gain trust of that particular team.

I like it.

DeepO · November 24, 2002, 07:08

Trip, a poll is nice, but shouldn't each minister or member at least post a 'YES, disclose my PMs within the context of this game' too? Now, nobody knows who is in favor anyway...

You are all free to use my PMs as you wish, in the sense that I don't consider them private communications between 2 members, but between representatives of our teams. If people start posting sensitive information on team policy in the general forum, they can, but will probably feel the diplomatic repurcussions of it (i.e. we won't like you

)

DeepO

Panzer32 · November 24, 2002, 09:22

I think whether it is done in private or public is up to the foreign ministers. Most likely private, but there may be some good things they want everyone to know about.

Jon Miller · November 24, 2002, 13:01

no

if everyone should know about it, it should be posted here

Jon Miller

GhengisFarb™ · November 24, 2002, 13:14

I think there should be a World Trade Thread on this forum that everyone can read and the Ambassadors can negotiate in that thread.

flash9286 · November 24, 2002, 13:32

nope, what if i want to sneak attack Gs with Trips team.

Spiffor · November 24, 2002, 14:25

True, most of the diplomacy will be kept secret. However, when a diplomat feels he'll get an edge by revealing what he knows, he may do it (that's the purpose of this poll : when someone PMs about diplomacy, it is understood the content of the PM can be revealed).
I can't imagine all diplomacy being completely open, it would ruin this part of the game.
I still think we do diplomacy like it is done IRL : no rules

Zero · November 24, 2002, 16:04

Most likely secret scheme will be kept between two teams.... the recipient may reveal the content but theres is some consequence in order to do so as well (other civ may guard themselves knowing they are easy to rat private conversation and the one who initiated discussion will forever remember this!)

DeepO · November 24, 2002, 17:11

I think some of us are misinterpreting the poll, and I'm not sure if it is me who is off... could someone please state clearly what the intent of this poll is?

1. Every PM sent within the context of this game may be revelead by the receiver to who he wishes. If he chooses to quote it in his team's private forum, he is allowed to by the sender. If he for some reason thinks he needs to disclose it to a member of a third team (either in a PM to him, or by posting it in the general forum), he can, even if it will very likely will have diplomatic repercussions in game.

2. Receivers must keep PMs to theirself, they are not allowed to quote it in the private forum

3. All PMs can be quoted in private fora, but can never be quoted in the general forum, thus a sort of team-privacy rule.

I thought that Trip said in the first post the poll was about option 1, and so I voted Yes. But from the posts of other members, it seems like others think the poll differently... could someone explain, please?

DeepO

Spiffor · November 24, 2002, 17:29

DeepO :
As far as I understand, when you vote YES, you say the content of diplomatic PMs may be revealed.
If you vote NO, you say it is forbidden to reveal the content of a diplomatic PM.

At least that's what I understood, and that's why I voted YES

Edit : after rereading Trip's first post, I think I understood correctly

Jon Shafer · November 24, 2002, 17:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
DeepO :
As far as I understand, when you vote YES, you say the content of diplomatic PMs may be revealed.
If you vote NO, you say it is forbidden to reveal the content of a diplomatic PM.

At least that's what I understood, and that's why I voted YES

Edit : after rereading Trip's first post, I think I understood correctly

That's correct.

Is it really that hard to understand though?

Question: "Should Ministers' PMs be revealed to the public? Yes or No?"

Ninot · November 24, 2002, 17:48

the world "revealed" is what caught me

makes it sounds like ALL ministerial and diplomatic talk should be revealed, or else!

Jon Shafer · November 24, 2002, 17:56

Sorry about that.

I added a 'translation' of the legal gibberish in the post for clarification.

Meshelic · November 24, 2002, 17:57

This poll allows ambassadors to NOT get in trouble for allowing his teammates to look at PM's from another team's ambassadors. This way nobody is breaking the 'poly rules, and we are all able to conduct foreign affair's the way we want to.

Jon Miller · November 24, 2002, 17:59

you can still forward PMs with no problems attached

it is just posting them publicly

I am fine with the current rules

Jon miller

ManicStarSeed · November 25, 2002, 04:06

So beating that dead horse to death....

This poll is allowing us to play the game more fully (reveal PMs regarding the PTW DG) with out the "repercussions" of breaking 'polys rules of privacy.

This does NOT give the right for any one to expect to be shown any PMs.

Correct?

Mss

Meshelic · November 25, 2002, 04:55

Correct.

ThePlagueRat · November 25, 2002, 09:50

When you send a PM, do you implicitly expect top secrecy about the subject? - I don't.

I know if I say: "...and please don't tell anyone!"
and the receiver says: "Okidokie" then I will expect some secrecy.
(I won't be reassured unless I know the guy well)

GodKing · November 25, 2002, 10:33

Abstain. If the PM is to be revealed, fine. If it is to be kept private, then just state in the PM "please keep private" and no matter what this vote turns out to be, no posting allowed per poly rules. It is easy enought to PM someone back asking "is it ok if I post this for my team?"

Jon Shafer · November 25, 2002, 12:44

TPR: It's a necassary precaution. Apoltyon has a rule against this kind of thing, and we need to have a vote on it and make sure everyone understands the situation.

GK, who would really want their secret plans divulged to an entire team/other teams?

That's like a Soviet spy after WWII asking the Americans if he can tell the Motherland how to build a nuke.

ThePlagueRat · November 25, 2002, 18:21

And this Soviet spy actually found out how to build a nuke.
Thanks to his spywork and American sloppiness...

What does that tell us?
You never write a secret in a PM to someone who can't
keep it a secret. Then you would rather keep your mouth shut.
If it is supposed to be a secret, very few people know...

BTW: I can keep a secret, so just PM me!

Jon Shafer · November 25, 2002, 19:22

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
What does that tell us?
You never write a secret in a PM to someone who can't
keep it a secret. Then you would rather keep your mouth shut.
If it is supposed to be a secret, very few people know...

Bingo.
Which is why I can't understand why some people are voting no.

Espionage is part of the game. You don't want anyone to know stuff about you? Then don't tell anyone. That's the nature of the biznas.

ixnay · November 25, 2002, 19:29

Yes, for all the reasons already explained by people above my post.

Zero · November 25, 2002, 20:40

GodKing, if what you say is true, then diplomat will take shelter in the safety of PM under Poly rule.

For example, if GoS wants to military ally agst Legoland with Gow, but Gow is a MPP ally of Legoland, Diplomats will opt for sending such deal offer thru PM and declare privacy, thus GoW will be bound to not be able to discuss such matter.

That is called abusing the rules.

Jon Miller · November 25, 2002, 22:15

you can forward PMs and discuss them

you jsut cannot post them

that is at least my understanding

Jon Miluler

DeepO · November 26, 2002, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
That's correct.

Is it really that hard to understand though?

It seems that way... I understood correctly, but not all comments on this thread assume the same thing. Quite a few people explain like they are forced to disclose all PMs, or think all of their PMs are to be abused. I too don't see a problem with voting YES...

DeepO

Jon Shafer · November 26, 2002, 13:47

At least it looks like it's going to pass either way.

flash9286 · November 26, 2002, 16:48

its not like you can enforce it, can you

Jon Shafer · November 26, 2002, 17:22

It's not a matter of enforcing, it's a matter of preventing any enforcement from taking place at all.