AoW PBEM, Third Thread Thereof - Page 10

beingofone · June 28, 2003, 22:37

Choke-"This was unintentional, Germany's turn played lots of times, the first turn, when I was making the changes to the scenario because I saved it as a scenario after each round of changes. I didn't think it would make that big a difference and I tried to disband most of the new units,"

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt Choke.My question is why for example does Russia start with less units then Exile's version and Germany with many more ? If you took the time to delete the Russian units then why not Germany?

"2-Is it standard in PBEM to delete your opponent's password so you can look at his deployments on the turn you attack?"

Choke-" I did NOT do this."

Then my question is why did the password remain intact thru French turn,then on your turn it is gone?

"3-Is it standard in PBEM to attack with your navy.Then on the same turn gift 80% of your navy to your ally?

Choke-"No one has ever suggested to me that this was against any rule"

You are right of course-this is just a tactic used by you to take advantage of the limits of the game engine.I just dont believe it is realistic.You are within your rights to use any weakness in the game to your advantage.For example -if the AI plays a civ such as Turkey can I gift them all of my tech, military units and money-and dismantle my infrastructure if I am sure I am going to lose?Negotiation can be done thru many means.One of these methods is the threat of suicide by proxi.What if my goal was to make sure the AI wins?If you think this response is nonsense you missed my point.Let me try again-Why dont I gift my whole civ to Spain or England or I know I will gift it to you Choke.It is my choice and is within the parameters of the game.

Choke-"are you that bitter about Italy being attacked that you want me to simply lay down my arms and allow Germany to be conquered?"

Choke dude-my password was deleted.I dont get bitter or angry. I play the game my very best but losing to me is a mere lesson-as long as I enjoyed the dynamic of the game.That is why I chose Italy in the 1st place.I did not choose Italy because I thought I could dominate Europe with them.

Darius-"Not ALL games here are meant to recreate history precisely. That only happens when all the players are committed to doing so. If one player decides to attack another when this wouldn't have happened in reality, too damn bad, this is civ. The best you can do is just try to beat the bastard."

The main reason we all play Civ with scenarios is because they have social relevance.Why do the Civs have names like Germany,Spain and Russia?Why are there historical dates?etc.etc.etc.I dont mind if he chose the path of war.There has never been a book written or story told in all of history that does not contain conflict.If he chooses to go to war in my mind thats when the fun begins.

Choke · June 29, 2003, 04:00

"Then my question is why did the password remain intact thru French turn,then on your turn it is gone?"

Well...the explanation for this is kind of stupid and I can't post it because it would tell everyone how to remove passwords and so on. But I will tell Darius what I did and he can pass judgement on it. However while I DID remove the password that was a by-product of something else I was doing, which is not cheating. I did NOT look at anyone's units or anything, if I had wanted to do that there are much, MUCH easier ways to do it without removing the passwords especially on the save I posted.

"Why dont I gift my whole civ to Spain or England or I know I will gift it to you Choke.It is my choice and is within the parameters of the game."

You could, and I wouldn't whine.

As for the being unrealistic...sorry if it didn't go over well that I gifted my fleet. It was sort of cheap, however you can always count on me to do EVERYTHING, excepting cheating to win. I ALWAYS stretch the envelope to the breaking point and if you don't like it, please make a thread and everyone can vote what should be allowed...or scenario makers will know to lay down more house rules. I think what I did was certainly cheap but I don't think anyone's done it before and I think there needs to be a rule made on the topic. In another game as France in a WW2 scenario I have decided to gift all my cities to the British civ, which one player in the game thinks is cheating and some of the others think is cheap...but there's no rule, and until there is I will do these sorts of things.

Darius871 · June 29, 2003, 07:45

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone
If he chooses to go to war in my mind thats when the fun begins.

Well then here we are. Let's not spoil your first game with these petty arguments, let's just kick some ass! In the next game you join you might have a stronger civ, and/or be with players more interested in historical accuracy than Choke is in this game. Just take THIS one as it is.

Choke: I'll try to be on MSN.

beingofone · June 30, 2003, 02:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Darius871

Well then here we are. Let's not spoil your first game with these petty arguments, let's just kick some ass! In the next game you join you might have a stronger civ, and/or be with players more interested in historical accuracy than Choke is in this game. Just take THIS one as it is.

I believe Darius,and I have respect for you,that my issues were not "petty".I would not have raised the issue of my password being deleted until I spotted other things out of sorts.
Let me ask you a question.If you had your password deleted on the same turn as you were attacked,would that raise questions in your mind?If you began to discover on the same turn that the bulk of the German navy was now Russian and that the scenario was extremely generous to the same guy that introduced it,what conclusion whould you come to?Answer this honestly.
I realize I am new here and Choke and you have many games under your belt-but facts are facts.I have been playing wargames since before the PC.I am an old guy-I really enjoy a good game without the pettiness of whining about small issues.But just as much I would rather not waste my time playing a game where I believe someone is willing to resort to deceptive or system busting means to win. I mean why bother?
As far as historical accuracy-I believe you misunderstood me.I enjoy taking a game from a historical start point and altering it.I am talking about abusing a flaw in the game system to make it unrealistic.I do not believe that the rule for gifting was meant to transfer your entire navy to safegaurd it until your next turn.Then attack again and transfer it again and again and again.
Let me point out how this could be taken to be so utterly abused as to make the game unplayable.Germany attacks with her fleet.Transfers it to the Russians and they attack with the SAME ships.Then Russia transfers the SAME ships to France AND THEY ATTACK WITH THE SAME SHIPS.3 attacks in 1 turn with the same ships.Am I being "petty"?

Choke-I dont believe you are intentionally cheating-I do believe you will resort to any means to win just short of cheating.What I would like to point out sir is that it can have the same results as cheating.Meaning the game becomes a lesson in how to take advantage of a game system to gain advantage instead of military and diplomatic means.Then why bother?
Please answer the question I posed.If you had the time to delete Russian units,why didnt you delete German units?

Darius871 · June 30, 2003, 03:44

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone

Let me ask you a question. If you had your password deleted on the same turn as you were attacked,would that raise questions in your mind?

Of course, and you have a legitimate concern here. Choke decided not to explain himself here and I can't be on AIM & MSN all day, so I don't know what his reasoning was. When I do, I'll judge it for myself.

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone

If you began to discover on the same turn that the bulk of the German navy was now Russian and that the scenario was extremely generous to the same guy that introduced it,what conclusion whould you come to?

Wouldn't care, on both counts. I think it's unrealistic and ridiculous, so I wouldn't do it myself. Also I think it serves no logical purpose, so it makes Choke look like a complete idiot to me. However, it is within the limitations of the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone

Let me point out how this could be taken to be so utterly abused as to make the game unplayable. Germany attacks with her fleet. Transfers it to the Russians and they attack with the SAME ships. Then Russia transfers the SAME ships to France AND THEY ATTACK WITH THE SAME SHIPS. 3 attacks in 1 turn with the same ships. Am I being "petty"?

That is not why Choke said he did this. IF he transferred the fleet in order to attack repeatedly, I would be against that and would leave the game immediately. However, that's an 'if'. He said himself on the thread that the reason he transferred the fleet was so that if Great Britain wants to destroy the ships, it will be forced to declare war on Russia and suffer the consequences. This is VERY different from what you described. It's still very stupid and I don't understand it myself, but it's not what you just described.

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone

If you had the time to delete Russian units,why didnt you delete German units?

As for the scenario being altered to favor Germany, I never looked at the start of it deeply, I just joined the game here and played. Now after looking into it, I share your concern.

Germany has 7 more field artillery in this version than the original, and Spain has 3 more conscript divisions in this version than the original.*

Choke's explanation is that turns had passed during his creation of the scenario. This makes no sense to me, since all he had to do was remove the railroads and make Gibraltar an island, and be done. There was no need to play turns doing creation. However, for the sake of argument, lets just say he was sloppy and turns passed in creation; that does not explain why Russia's number of units went down. If he deleted the units Russia built, why not also delete the units Germany built? We both came to the same question, and I want an answer too.

* - Just to add a little intrigue, in the two games of this scenario, Germany and Spain are coincidentally the two civs he chose. That's not enough to accuse anybody of anything, but I can understand why you'd raise an eyebrow.

beingofone · June 30, 2003, 06:51

Darius-"That is not why Choke said he did this. IF he transferred the fleet in order to attack repeatedly, I would be against that and would leave the game immediately. However, that's an 'if'. He said himself on the thread that the reason he transferred the fleet was so that if Great Britain wants to destroy the ships, it will be forced to declare war on Russia and suffer the consequences. This is VERY different from what you described. It's still very stupid and I don't understand it myself, but it's not what you just described."

Here is the concern

Choke-"No one has ever suggested to me that this was against any rule all it does is force England to war with Russia if England wants to attack my navy, Russia will be at war with England eventually anyway...so I don't see the problem here."

Choke-"As for the being unrealistic...sorry if it didn't go over well that I gifted my fleet. It was sort of cheap, however you can always count on me to do EVERYTHING, excepting cheating to win. I ALWAYS stretch the envelope to the breaking point and if you don't like it, please make a thread and everyone can vote what should be allowed...or scenario makers will know to lay down more house rules."

No one ever suggested that transfering ships repeatedly to gain multiple attacks is against any rule.Let me give you another way to abuse this.I dont attack multiple times-I just move my damaged navy 3 times to get away from opponent who has 1 move.There are many ways to abuse this loophole Darius.Should I go on listing more?

Darius871 · June 30, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by beingofone

No one ever suggested that transfering ships repeatedly to gain multiple attacks is against any rule.

Likewise, no one has EVER suggested that Choke intended to gift this fleet in order to give it extra movement. IF that is the case, THEN I AM AGAINST IT.

beingofone · July 1, 2003, 01:08

This will be my last post until we hear from Choke.

I think the gifting of your units,cities,or navy would be ok if it were permanent.Otherwise to shine a spotlight on the subject at the minimum this would allow the gifted navy more ability then all 3 naval world wonders combined.You can move,attack and move again.And this is the minimum effect to say nothing of the multitudes of other ways you could use this rule-with ground units,cities,etc.
You have to put yourself in my shoes for just a second.He attacks and on the same turn his entire fleet disappears.

Nilat · July 1, 2003, 07:09

I could take the spanish, if you guys are still waiting

FiGu · July 1, 2003, 09:50

Spain is taken by me..

Darius871 · July 1, 2003, 09:51

Doesn't FiGu have them?

Darius871 · July 1, 2003, 09:53

Aha, beat me by 30 seconds

If you're interested in a PBEM though, there are plenty of slots open on this thread though.

Choke · July 1, 2003, 21:29

Russia can keep the fleet, my intention was not to give the ships two moves in one turn.

One turn was played as Russia, 10 or 20 as Germany, as in I loaded and edited the scen and the production on each of Germany's cities increased and after doing it many times, it resulted in more German units, some of which I disbanded, some I didn't know about and really some I just didn't care about because I figured it wouldn't matter in the long term for the scenario.

Darius871 · July 1, 2003, 23:50

If Russia will really keep the fleet, then I consider the matter closed.

beingofone · July 2, 2003, 03:16

I also consider the entire matter closed.I shall not speak again about this as long as everything stays on the up and up.Believe me I dont enjoy discussing "issues"-I like playing a good fair game even if I get crushed.
If anyone feels I have been unreasonable please say so.I would abdicate for the sake of the fun of the game.

Darius871 · July 2, 2003, 10:57

I think you were perfectly reasonable in asking about the fleet, but now you have an answer. If you have a problem with it being gifted permanently, well no I wouldn't understand.

I think you were perfectly reasonable in asking about the number of units in the start of the scenario, but now you have an answer. It was a screw-up in scenario creation due to general incompetence.

If you have a problem with that, I wouldn't understand.

Choke · July 2, 2003, 16:09

Ok...so now the game can continue...who's turn?

FiGu · July 2, 2003, 16:13

Russia! I did my turn already.

beingofone · July 5, 2003, 07:34

I am moving across country and will not be able to play for a minimum of 2 weeks.If Russia can do the turn this weekend I will post and then move,otherwise FiGu can do my move.

Nibbe · July 9, 2003, 18:13

Writing report right now...

Nibbe · July 9, 2003, 18:22

New leader ceases power in Russia!

I'n a relatively unbloody revolution, Niklas I took over Moscow and is now controlling Russia. No change of alliance is happening in the near future.

War declared!

The Russian Nord sea-fleet attacked English naval forces. The declaration of war started a chainreaction which ended with my great Mother Russia is at war with everyone except Germany and Turkey.

The Cease Fire with Turkey ended, but i have no intention of going to war. I hope we can renew this cease fire.

The capital of Sweden, Stockholm was captured with a small loss of blood, and Sweden will soon be a part of Russia.

Bulgaria was attacked, and will be totally captured before the end of the year.

Yea, that's pretty much it. But i still suck at writing these thing :O

Darius871 · July 31, 2003, 21:39

Beingofone?

beingofone · August 4, 2003, 01:40

Sorry all.This move across the US is turning into a major project -ex wife et all and so on.
Do what you must to keep the game going.I had no idea it would take this long or be so involved.Post for a replacement.If you have not found one by the time I can return to gaming I can resume.
Godd luck all.

Darius871 · August 4, 2003, 15:14

Considering the pace of this PBEM we can probably wait.