11/27 Chat Starting Shortly

Togas · November 27, 2002, 19:25

Please jump in at the Apolyton mIRC chatroom and join us if you wish for our pre-vacation chat. We expect to begin shortly.

As progress is made the saves for each turn will be posted in this thread, with commentary.

--Togas

E_T · November 27, 2002, 19:56

Here is the save that we'll be starting with.

E_T

Togas · November 27, 2002, 20:39

next save. No major updates. India offered us a MPP but we turned it down.

Togas · November 27, 2002, 21:35

no major updates until end of turn when Greece offer MMP. We turned them down. Zulu dropped 2 impi on Uber Island after previously leaving our national waters. Something shall be done this turn about them...

Togas · November 27, 2002, 21:59

At this point our great leader returns prematurely from his vacation and takes over the turnchat

Whew! Running these turnchats is harder than I thought it would be! The endless PW and WF orders! I'm going to fade back into the background and assist on FAM duties.

--Togas

Togas · November 27, 2002, 22:22

Here's a report from my part of the turnchat:

1070ad
FAM reneg done.
City Queues changed. WF changed. Workers continue as according to DM orders.
moved 3 muskets towards uber on a galley
upgrade musket in napoleton
upgrade musket in new york
upgrade musket in seeburg
ships kept on exploration missions.
cavalry in the center of the nation moved towards Napoleton and New York.
draft riflemen in gaia, tass, macross

1080
zulus move past us
indians want to talk, offer mpp. We decline.
moved muskets to AGC
sold medicine to zulu for 18gpt, 28g & wm
rush cath in napoleton

1090
greece offer mpp. we refuese
zulu drops on uber island.

Aggie takes over turnchat.

--Togas

Kloreep · November 27, 2002, 22:26

We gave an ultimatum to the Zulus to move or fight, and they have made their decision: war!

Togas · November 27, 2002, 22:36

Our turnchat is wrapping up. Aggie will post the closing highlights and updates. However, one very major event took place, the Zulus invaded us and declared war when we asked them to leave.

Prior to this declaration of war we had sold them Medicine, and they had bought Nationalism from another nation.

They were paying us 48gpt and giving us gems. They are now free of that debt and obligation.

We have experienced some brief happiness due to their war declaration, and Aggie is now moving the troops to rout the wretched invaders.

--Togas

Aggie · November 27, 2002, 23:38

Once again the banana smiles on us(or is that smells us). Zulus routed, troops on the move to punish them, thats all.
Aggie

Aggie · November 28, 2002, 01:15

WE got sanitation. but so did germany.
Here is the save.
Aggie

Aggie · November 28, 2002, 01:41

We traded for steam power, we have 4 connected and at least 1 unconnected coal source.
Aggie

Kloreep · November 28, 2002, 02:00

Here's a log.

Shiber · November 28, 2002, 10:29

How much money did we make from techwhoring Sanitation?

E_T · November 28, 2002, 11:12

Because of the War and other things that needed to be discussed, we had stopped for those reasons, which we only made the trade for Steam Power. Germany had gotten it and Whored it around just before we did, decreasing it's value. We were lucky to have had 3 Luxes that were available to use in the trade with Greece.

The Final Greek trade was: them Steam Power; 5LPT & WM for our Sanitation; Incense; Dyes & Spices. W should have gotten more out of them, but they were too broke.

This will give us the ability to build the Railroads, which I can have 1 full lenght of track stretching from Opiadom to Willsbury in just the one turn.

There are still trades to make for this turn. THese will be up to FAM Arnelos to complete. We do know that we can get Communisum from India for just Sanitation, WM & 28 Lytons. We can also sell somebody (I can't remember who) some coal for about 26 LPT.

So there is still more money to be made and some tech to trade. If the FAM makes the trade, we will once again be at technological parity with the other Civs. And this time, we have a much better techological research base than we did just before we had gotten Democracy, while still in the MA. We have come a long way and will soon pass them up.

E_T

Shiber · November 28, 2002, 12:18

Personally I'm tired of seeing Germany beating us to techs all the time. To war!!
SMC Thud, any estimates on how long before we declare war against Germany?

canyontree · November 28, 2002, 13:13

Quote:

Personally I'm tired of seeing Germany beating us to techs all the time. To war!!
SMC Thud, any estimates on how long before we declare war against Germany?

Don't hold your breath. There appears to be a conspiracy between our peacenick SMC and our FM to make it extremely difficult for us to attack Germany.

E_T · November 28, 2002, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
Personally I'm tired of seeing Germany beating us to techs all the time. To war!!
SMC Thud, any estimates on how long before we declare war against Germany?

We should be able to beat them to Industrialization. We are both in the starting gate, but We've added a few more Research & Monitary Improvements sence we started on Sanitation. Also, Germany had a one turn head start on us with Sanitation and we both tied, so we are doing it right.

We can get Industrialization in 6 turns if we take a breif income hit of -34 LPT (7 turns @ +68LPT). THis is BEFORE any further tech & other trades. We have 375 in our coffers and we'll get money from the Zulu in 4 turns when we go for peace.

We will also have 1 Bank in 2 turns (which will also allow us to start on building Wall Street); 2 Universities in 1 turn and 1 more in 3 turns (we also had one come online just this turn); 1 Library in 4 turns. We will have 1 city that will grow beyond size 6 next turn, with 1 more in 3 turns and 2 more after that in 4 turns. We should have NO problem tweeking down the slider in a couple of turns time, if we go at this rate. We should beat Otto to Industrialisation and be able to sell it at our leasure.

As for Otto, we didn't renew the Spice deal with him last turn, as it would have been Revenue Neutral if we had, we let it ride. So we are currently 16 turns away from the possible D-day when we have to renew the Peace Treaty with Otto. We have one more Renegote in 11 turns (for Incense & Dyes) that we can let ride, too.

I'm making my plans based on 16 turns.

E_T

adaMada · November 28, 2002, 14:36

Quote:

Originally posted by canyontree

Don't hold your breath. There appears to be a conspiracy between our peacenick SMC and our FM to make it extremely difficult for us to attack Germany.

Arnelos is not here to defend himself, but I will say that I strongly disagree with the notion he is in 'conspiracy' with Thud over the issue.

He clearly has stated, several times now, that he is renewing deals with Germany because he is told that the war is more than twenty days away. In fact, to quote from a post on the issue in the orders thread (addressed to E_T), he says:

Quote:

Originally posted by Arnelos
E_T,

Neither the SMC nor the President has given me a solid idea on the TIMING for any war with Germany. Whenever I ask, I'm told that war is safely more than 20 turns away, so I keep signing agreements with Germany. Once we (1) a solid war plan, (2) a solid complete construction timeline to meet the needs of that warplan, and the SMC can give me a DATE for the war to start, then I (in conjunction with any interested members of the Senate) can consider whether it is wise to continue making agreements with Germany.

Considering that you, as Domestic Minister, have been doing a very good job of attempting to accomodate what war planning that has been taking place (primarily in the Senate), the problem right now is the absense of the SMC and an official war plan with a timeline that the FAM can use to do the proper geopolitical manuevering.

Thus, I recommend that we hold some form of Cabinet Meeting (via mIRC chat?) to discuss the issue of war plans and timing for the war (should the Senate approve of eventually going to war...). Obviously, we'll need to make sure our SMC (who seems to have already left for his family vacation - I leave tomorrow) shows up

Once Arnelos is back, I'm sure he can defend himself far better than I can, but I wanted to go ahead and point out that he has clearly stated that he is not trying to stop a war on Germany -- he's just waiting to be told when it is time to execute the war.

-- adaMada

E_T · November 28, 2002, 14:45

Here, Here!

I did discuss this issue with Arnelos in chat and we agreed that we'll see how the one lux deal with Germany goes. That would give us 20 turns from that time to work properly on this issue.

As the lux deal was NOT renegotiated, because of the fact it would have been Revenue Neutral, it was desided in Turnchat (according to FAM Arnelos's orders) to let it ride.

We can effectively start the war in 16 turn from now. We should be ready, dispite the little speed bump that Shaka has provided us with!

E_T

E_T · November 28, 2002, 16:11

Here is the PW save for 1100AB. I won't go into full details, but we have 8 cities connected via RR, from Opiadom to Muncie (29 total tiles have been RR'ed). Other stuff was done too.

Here is the save.

E_T

Shiber · November 28, 2002, 16:53

I am not sure what is the exact effect of railroads, other than allowing free movement. The civilopedia says they increase the effects of mines and irrigation. My question is, how is this increase expressed? Do they increase shield and food output, and if so, by how much?

Vlad Antlerkov · November 28, 2002, 21:03

+1 food on irrigated tiles. (Irrigated grassland produces 3 food before railroading, 4 after.) +1 shield on mined tiles. (Mined normal grassland produces 1 shield before railing, 2 after.)

BTW-- how long until we can talk to Shaka again? Because of the travel times, an invasion of Zulu territory would take us to the point where we'd experience war weariness, and the new holdings would be extremely corrupt.

Panzer32 · November 28, 2002, 21:47

5 turns from the beginning of the war is the first chance for peace.

Shiber · November 29, 2002, 07:37

The war started the previous turn, so we've got at least four turns of war ahead of us.
Personally I see no reason why we should not sue for peace. Surely Shaka would agree to inferior terms. He must be shaking in his boots and cursing himself for making such a wrong move.

Kloreep · November 29, 2002, 15:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
The war started the previous turn, so we've got at least four turns of war ahead of us.
Personally I see no reason why we should not sue for peace. Surely Shaka would agree to inferior terms.

We may not be able to extract much, but accepting small tribute now is worth it to be able to focus on Germany.

Quote:

He must be shaking in his boots and cursing himself for making such a wrong move.

Actually, I think he's stumbled into a brilliant move. He used GPT from gems to jump ahead of us in the tech race, and then cancelled all GPT to us by declaring war. Sure, his rep is in the trash, but the AI doesn't care much about that. He could still be in the middle ages if he played it safe like we might.

Shiber · November 29, 2002, 16:23

You've got a point there. Before the war the Zulu were paying us 48 gpt (an astronomical figure for a civ such as the Zulu, even with all their gems).

joncnunn · December 2, 2002, 12:25

Selling Medicine in 1080 to the Zulus was a serious mistake with us knowing they had a unit near our territory when we started a deal that could be canceled simply by them declaring war.

In addition to them getting it free and clear, the Zulus can now offer this tech to anybody who doesn't have it to get them to betray us as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Togas
Here's a report from my part of the turnchat:

1080
zulus move past us
indians want to talk, offer mpp. We decline.
moved muskets to AGC
sold medicine to zulu for 18gpt, 28g & wm
rush cath in napoleton

1090
greece offer mpp. we refuese
zulu drops on uber island.

Aggie takes over turnchat.

--Togas

joncnunn · December 2, 2002, 12:30

No, if Zulu were a human player he would be rejoicing for having his debts canceled.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
The war started the previous turn, so we've got at least four turns of war ahead of us.
Personally I see no reason why we should not sue for peace. Surely Shaka would agree to inferior terms. He must be shaking in his boots and cursing himself for making such a wrong move.