strat guide info

Barshy · November 27, 2002, 23:43

could people who have the strat guide start posting some non-spoiler info?

BleedTheFreak · November 28, 2002, 00:40

Sure, like what? It's a 238 page guide and loaded with great stuff, anything specific?

Barshy · November 28, 2002, 00:53

Does the strat guide make you more excited about the game, or less so?

How does espionage work?

I guess that's all right now... haha, I originally wanted info and now I'm thinking I'd rather be surprised. I guess I just want a little teaser

BleedTheFreak · November 28, 2002, 01:09

Oh, I am MUCH MORE excited about the game now. The game really really impresses me, on paper. In experience is a whole other thing of course, but yeah, I am even more revved up.

Espionage isn't a great big secret or anything, basically you train a spy, seperate from planet build ques, and he is assigned a specialty (econmoic spies can slow down and even bankrupt an enemy, military spies can take out goverment buildings, research spies can steal tech). If you leave your spies on active status but not assigned to a mission, they defend against other spies (counter-intelligence). Each type of spy has a list of possible missions they can undertake and stats (cloak - ability to succede and get out before noticed; dagger - ability to pull off an offensive action, like theft, or sabatoge; luck - the maxiumum number of turns a spy can operate before being caught; loyalty - the ability for a spy to restist torture/etc. before revealing whom he works for).

There is many many things spies can do, but I won't get into them now. Espionage and all it's racial and tech upgrades will be very cool, I strongly suspect.

vmxa1 · November 28, 2002, 02:25

Her ya go from PTW guide:

"There is one and only one, area where the AI actually has an ablility that you don't. From the the start of the game, the AI knows th entire world map. For the purposes of interaction with other cicilizations and overseas trade, the AI can not see the whole map -- it is still affected by the fog of war. However, the AI knows the location and contents of every terrain tile, including the locations of every strategic resource before it appears."
They go on to say that trading maps to the AI is a freebie item that you can give away with little regret.
"The only thing you're actualy providing is the ability for the AI to trade across bodies of water." The AI must be able to "see" across the water from harbor to harbor through the fog of war in order to have a trade route.

Also :

page 123. "The AI in civilization III cannot differentiate bewteen the human player and other AI players, so the AI can't gang up on you just because you are the human."
Oh and another quote from P124:

"The development team went to great pains to make sure that if you play and make the same decissions as an AI opponent, given the same conditions, your game and the AI's game would be absolutely identical. So, if you think the AI is cheating you, it's just a case of sour grapes on your part."

This for all of the people that swear the ai cheats and trade unfairly.

Hey you did not say what guide.

Skanky Burns · November 28, 2002, 03:34

Considering it's the MoO3 forum...

wervdon · November 28, 2002, 03:53

You scared me vxma1, I didnt notice the PTW at the top at first, and thought I was reading that the moo3 ai knows the entire galaxy map at the start

Not that it'd be all that useful cept to know what the optimal colonization order is to maximize your range to reach juicy planets fastest or to make war on the poor human sap sooner

campfreddie · November 28, 2002, 07:22

Vxma1, you are pure evil...

Bleedthefreak: Can you give some info about custom race design?

Is it like MOO2 (build from scratch and pick any race art) or can you only make minor adjustments to the existing races (e.g. you can make a human race that has better farmers and worse diplomacy but not one that lives on gas giants)? I've always campaigned for the latter, otherwise the races lose their character.

Any info you can give on this would be cool, and I don't think it will spoil the game, just let us plan our races.

Perhaps put a ***SPOILER!*** notice if you post though.

Barshy · November 28, 2002, 10:06

Another question (thanks for answering them!): how different really are the races? Are they just about as different as the SMAC factions (which I thought were pretty different but could have been much more so)?

Oh yeah, and no info on Ithkul please, of course..

BleedTheFreak · November 29, 2002, 15:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Barshy
Another question (thanks for answering them!): how different really are the races? Are they just about as different as the SMAC factions (which I thought were pretty different but could have been much more so)?

Oh yeah, and no info on Ithkul please, of course..

They seem very different. There are a lot of things that define a race, from mining to bioharvesting, to research and starting goverment, etc. Each race seems to have a strong advantage in one or more areas and then weaknesses to balance them out, basically a little something for every playing style, but if you prefer one race's "look" to another races actual stats, you can always tweak the race custom style and make a race that is perfect for you. Plus, each race has several unique "fingerprints" if you will about them, such as a diplomacy bonus/penalty for different combinations of races (as an example, I don't have the book in front of me these numbers are made up, humans and psilons are 20% friendly to each other, and humans and Silicoids have a mutual hatred of one another that sours relations by 17% or something. While you can customize a race, you can't change what it is fundamentaly. You can re-shape your humans but they will still hate the silicoids (as I understand it, and again, based on example numbers I made up, I don't really remember if the humans hate the silicoids).

I hope that helps?

Barshy · November 29, 2002, 16:10

yeah, it does.... what does the guide say about casus belli? That's how your people feel about a certain race, right? Can you influence it, or what is it effected by?

Alex-C · November 30, 2002, 06:45

This "grudge" or "liking" of other races. Although its predetermined and definitive of the race you choose, may it be altered through diplomacy or war? (i think this is also what Barshy was kinda asking too, sorry

) Also, say if you declare war on a race that your race "likes", or make peace with a race that your race "hates", can it split popular opinion to the point of rebellion/civil war?

Yolky · November 30, 2002, 06:57

some of the stronger races in Moo and Moo2 are the weakest ones now, wich caught me by suprise. They have a ranking in from strongest to weakest to play the races and was suprised it said to play the weakest race for a challenge.

Davor

Ray K · November 30, 2002, 12:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Yolky
some of the stronger races in Moo and Moo2 are the weakest ones now, wich caught me by suprise. They have a ranking in from strongest to weakest to play the races and was suprised it said to play the weakest race for a challenge.

Davor

Having stronger and weaker races is a Good Thing (tm), specifically for the reason you mentioned.

BleedTheFreak · November 30, 2002, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex-C
This "grudge" or "liking" of other races. Although its predetermined and definitive of the race you choose, may it be altered through diplomacy or war? (i think this is also what Barshy was kinda asking too, sorry

) Also, say if you declare war on a race that your race "likes", or make peace with a race that your race "hates", can it split popular opinion to the point of rebellion/civil war?

Yeah, everybody is pre-disp'd to other races. For example (again, making it up for the sake of an example) let's say humans and silicoids hate each other. Then, when you first encounter them, you can declare ware on them withought angering the people. However, let's say instead of declaring war, they actually initiate peace talks and go so far as to reach out with a trade agreement and a non-agression pact. Now, against this one race of silicoids (if there is another say splinter race they may still hate you) your people will be really pissed if, all of the sudden, you up and decide you want there territory and you have a larger fleet then they do. So, from what I understand* yeah, it starts a set way but is very fluid from then on as the game develops.

*I have not played it, but there are 17 written examples of gameplay in the strategy guide, so it sort of feels like I have played it to a small degree.

Alex-C · November 30, 2002, 13:33

Thanks for the info, its good that you really can develop these traits rather than them remaining "set in stone", gives a lot more freedom

ashbery · November 30, 2002, 15:40

What are the laws in the senate and does it explain what santions mean in game terms.

Barshy · November 30, 2002, 23:02

what do they say is the hardest race to play? easiest? why?

Bird-O-Prey · December 1, 2002, 00:22

Barshy

From what little Ive read from the guide so far, it depends on allot of things. A few races at the first have the upper hand... Later that could change because of their inherent weaknesses...

Yolky · December 1, 2002, 10:59

Barshy I don't want to ruin it for any people here who want to have it as a suprise.

If it is ok with Mark, he can start a poll to see how many poeple want to know things from the strat guide and how many people who don't want to know and keep it a suprise. (If he makes it then I know it will be ok, and not deleted. from the forums)

If people say it's ok and want to know, I will start a new thread that people can look into and those who don't want to know won't have to look, but I want to know from Mark and the rest of you that it's ok to do so.

Davor

playshogi · December 1, 2002, 11:14

I bought the guide at Best Buy and I live in Ohio. The senate laws work as described in the data dumps; there are 25 different ones listed in the guide. The Harvesters are described on page 14 with no photo, although I found a (likely) photo of them on page 30.
The book as someone else pointed out is more like a preview/manual than a detailed walk-thru. Here's what it has to say about the opening setup (p. 150): "If there are no new prospects [ie. colonizable planets] in your home system, consider restarting the game until you hit a favorable distribution." Doh!

BleedTheFreak · December 1, 2002, 11:27

Quote:

Originally posted by playshogi
I bought the guide at Best Buy and I live in Ohio. The senate laws work as described in the data dumps; there are 25 different ones listed in the guide. The Harvesters are described on page 14 with no photo, although I found a (likely) photo of them on page 30.
The book as someone else pointed out is more like a preview/manual than a detailed walk-thru. Here's what it has to say about the opening setup (p. 150): "If there are no new prospects [ie. colonizable planets] in your home system, consider restarting the game until you hit a favorable distribution." Doh!

Yeah, but the author never did that during any of the 16 walkthroughs, in more the on case his starting system sucked, but he seemed to have the upper hand after each play through story...

playshogi · December 1, 2002, 11:46

The Imsaeis scenario is a funny one. For some reason, the author allowed the AI to handle the home planet and by the 7th turn "By the time we pay close attention, our population is dropping like flies." p. 219

Of course, he uses that as an example of how to deal with emergencies and is not necessarily a reflection on AI ability.

Baro · December 1, 2002, 19:32

Any chance of getting a list of all the "buildings" in moo3 and their effects from the guide? Arg maybe I should just go out and buy it.

Someone should type up all the most important tables and such on a web site.

I'm very interested in reading all the races stats and abilities, and race bible bits if they have them, even the harvesters (get a life or lock your self in a box untill you play the game surprise obsessed people).

playshogi · December 1, 2002, 20:13

There is no such "building" list in the guide. However, you could create one by close reading of the technology lists For example, the Arts and Entertainment Megalopolis is a Social Science Tech Advance. It's effect is +1.5 to Recreation DEA and -1 to Unrest. It doesn't say if the effect is automatic upon discovery of the advance or if you have to build something.

Race customization -- the cost in points for each modification is not given except for those used in the example given in the book. They'll probably change with playtesting anyway. The total must add up to ZERO, so for every advantageous tweak you must take a disadvantage.

Yolky · December 2, 2002, 09:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Baro
Any chance of getting a list of all the "buildings" in moo3 and their effects from the guide? Arg maybe I should just go out and buy it.

Someone should type up all the most important tables and such on a web site.

I'm very interested in reading all the races stats and abilities, and race bible bits if they have them, even the harvesters (get a life or lock your self in a box untill you play the game surprise obsessed people).

Gota be careful who ever types up all some some of the important tables because of copyright laws. Apolyton could get in trouble if someone listed them here without permission.

Davor

Guffawing Crow · December 2, 2002, 10:48

Just picked up the strategy guide on Saturday (Electronic Boutiques, Eaton Centre, Toronto - - looks like someone else already picked it up at that location). The store only had four guides left in the store as they were selling fast. Quite the testament to the anticipation for this game, I would have to say!

I guess us lucky Canucks are supposed to tease the rest of you, but at the same time, leave most of the juicy details out.

So, my teaser of the day regards combat. It really looks like ground combat will have a more prominent role as well as fighters. Lots of individual tech seems to be devoted to these two, so it looks like having carrier fleets will be a very viable option.

The sample scenarios they gave really struck me that you get immersed in very important decisions right away. Looks like it will be very fast paced.

Barshy · December 2, 2002, 10:56

keep pumping out those teasers...

graphically, what do you see for ground combat?

Casus belli--- when we see this rating, will actually KNOW WHY it is rated this way?

About the only thing good with Civ3

was that when you clicked on the faces they would tell you %es of why people were unhappy

Guffawing Crow · December 2, 2002, 11:59

"graphically, what do you see for ground combat?"

It doesn't say. There looks like there are plenty of options, but no show of graphics.

Planets are conquered by taking over regions holding the government infrastructure. So, it looks like there will be some strategy as to where you play your infantry/marines/commandos/tanks/air units/etc.

I would imagine that purging a planet has severe diplomatic consequences and that is why ground combat is more prominent.

This is just speculation as the guide is still rather vague.

Xentax · December 2, 2002, 13:54

My advice to everyone: *IGNORE* comparative race rankings in the Strategy Guide.

Remember that the information the author used was from several weeks ago, at least, and among the things the Beta Testers have been testing and commenting on is balance among the races; I know for a fact that at least some tuning was done -- possibly before the author evaluated the races' relative power, but quite likely since as well.

And besides that, it's all but a given that patches will seek to balance out the races.

So, basically, I'd recommend you play the race that suits you, or that you like, and evaluate it for yourself. Play around with customization (there's more to customize, as you've seen).

It'll take awhile to really identify which races, if any, are too powerful or not powerful enough. I'd hate for a fairly speculative and likely outdated ranking in the Strat Guide to bias such a process.