President Bush Jr's Scorecard

[DRoseDARs]

(I'll add proper links later as I dig them up from other threads - whom I will also provide links to - and major media outlets)



Let us review President Bush Jr's scorecard thus far:

(Note: Please add anything to this list that could be considered as the GOOD things he's done as I could only think of the BAD, the UGLY, and downright SCARY things he's done thus far in his administration...)



1) Creating a second-track court system:
Seems to totally bypass the US Constitution
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=69523
Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Nov30.html

2) Office of DisInformation:
Now defunct (riiight... )

3) TIA Total Information Awareness:
Now I'm gonna be forever creeped-out by those CapitalOne Credit Card commercials: "What's in YOUR wallet...?"
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67720
New York Times - Well, you have to sign up for free...follow link provided in first post of that thread

4) Homeland Security:
Dubious powers recently granted both to DoHS and the F.B.I.

5) Operation TIPS:
Scaled back (riiight... ) after outcry from ACLU and members of Congress

6) Desire to create a Domestic Spying Agency:
Gestapo anyone?

7) Patriot Act:
Rushed through Congress with little outside notice

8) Trying to turn a blind eye to Corporate America and the Modern Aristocracy:
Riders added last-minute to Homeland Security bill, more tax cuts for the wealthy, buggling of investigations into corporate/executive fraud

9) Rolling back environmentel protections:
Alaska drilling which wouldn't give us enough barrels of oil to help us in any kind of crisis, Clean Air Act, forest logging, dismissing Kyoto Accords only later acknowledging the possiblity of there being potentially a chance that Humans might be indirectly affecting - in minor ways and isolated cases - the Earth's enviroment through our activities...maybe...

10) Snubbing nose at international community:
Only begrudgingly going to the UN and waiting out the process with some prodding after immense pressure - both at home and abroad, all too eager to go-it-alone with War on Terrorism

11) Backing out of Anti-Ballistic treaty:
Wants to develope NEW kinds of nukes AND open up the possiblity to use small-scale tactical nukes on the battlefield



All this just in President Bush Jr's first 2 years in office, mostly just in the past few months...



I realize that there are several different threads on each of these topics, but perhaps this one could be used as a more condensed version, or a focusing point for discussion...IF the mods approve.



Discuss...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
(I'll add proper links later as I dig them up from other threads - whom I will also provide links to - and major media outlets)

Let us review President Bush Jr's scorecard thus far:

(Note: Please add anything to this list that could be considered as the GOOD things he's done as I could only think of the BAD, the UGLY, and downright SCARY things he's done thus far in his administration...)

I think your review is very biased.

1) Creating a second-track court system:
Seems to totally bypass the US Constitution
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=69523
Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Nov30.html

This is the same court system that has existed since before WW2 and was used extensively to try japanese and german spies. When was the outrage then?

2) Office of DisInformation:
Now defunct (riiight... )

3) TIA Total Information Awareness:
Now I'm gonna be forever creeped-out by those CapitalOne Credit Card commercials: "What's in YOUR wallet...?"
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67720
New York Times - Well, you have to sign up for free...follow link provided in first post of that thread

So, the logo is creepy and invites conspiracy theories. Just because the logo is creepy does not mean that they are necessarily bad. It is just a logo.

4) Homeland Security:
Dubious powers recently granted both to DoHS and the F.B.I.

What dubious powers?

The important thing is that the DoHS simply combines the already existing agencies like FBI, INS, Coast Guard into a single organization for better coordination and efficiency. The DoHS is not some new secret agency.

5) Operation TIPS:
Scaled back (riiight... ) after outcry from ACLU and members of Congress

Agreed. Hopefully it will be scaled back further and even terminated soon. It was a bad idea.

6) Desire to create a Domestic Spying Agency:
Gestapo anyone?

Britain has a domestic spying agency, called the MI5, and I don't hear anyone screaming that they are a gestapo organization and a dictatorial society.

7) Patriot Act:
Rushed through Congress with little outside notice

Could you be more specific?


[quote]
8) Trying to turn a blind eye to Corporate America and the Modern Aristocracy:
Riders added last-minute to Homeland Security bill, more tax cuts for the wealthy, buggling of investigations into corporate/executive fraud
[quote]

That is democratic propaganda again. For example, the Terrorism Insurance provision helps companies go ahead with large scale construction projects without fear of loss of property in the event of a terrorist attack. Helping these construction projects go ahead will provide more jobs for construction workers as well as help businesses grow.

The tax cuts go to to everyone who pays taxes, middle or high income. Or do you suggest giving tax cuts to the begger that has no money and pays no taxes? How does that help the economy? The best to help the economy is to give tax cuts to people that have the power to stimulate the economy!

9) Rolling back environmentel protections:
Alaska drilling which wouldn't give us enough barrels of oil to help us in any kind of crisis, Clean Air Act, forest logging, dismissing Kyoto Accords only later acknowledging the possiblity of there being potentially a chance that Humans might be indirectly affecting - in minor ways and isolated cases - the Earth's enviroment through our activities...maybe...

Many of these protections were inefficient, bureaucratic mess that helped no one and certainly not the envirronment nor the economy.

Now we can sign the Kyoto Accord and lose more jobs and hurt our economy just so that we can feel good about yourselves because we can pretend that we care about nature. Or, we can stimulate the economy and protect the environment in a serious way.

10) Snubbing nose at international community:
Only begrudgingly going to the UN and waiting out the process with some prodding after immense pressure - both at home and abroad, all too eager to go-it-alone with War on Terrorism

What if the international community is wrong or does not have our interests at heart? Should we follow the international community anyway so that we can feel good about ourselves?

Bush went to the UN and got them to unanimously approve his Iraq resolution. Now we are in a better position than ever to disarm Saddam and protect this nation against weapons of mass destruction. Bush is trying to protect this nation from terrorism, something Bill Clinton obviously knew nothing about!

11) Backing out of Anti-Ballistic treaty:
Wants to develope NEW kinds of nukes AND open up the possiblity to use small-scale tactical nukes on the battlefield

The ABM treaty is a cold war relic. So we should adhere to a treaty that hurts our national security just to make others happy? Bush is moving along with a missile defense system that will actually try to protect this country and our allies against ballistic missile threats.

Someday, our missile defense system might actually save millions of South Korean lives from a North Korean nuclear attack, something your ABM treaty will never be able to do. After all, the ABM treaty did not prevent NK from developping nukes and long range missiles, it just prevented us from developping a defense against it.

All this just in President Bush Jr's first 2 years in office, mostly just in the past few months...

And you are forgetting many acomplishments:

1) Education bill
2) Corporate Reform bill
3) Campaign Finance Reform bill
4) Successes in the War on terrorism. We freed Afghanistan from a tyrannical government, the Taliban, and killed or captured may Al Queda leaders and operatives. We have alos freezed financial assets for terrorist groups around the world making it harder for those groups to operate. We have organized unprecended world wide cooperation against terrorism.

[DinoDoc]

6) Desire to create a Domestic Spying Agency:
Gestapo anyone?

MI5 to be exact.

[TheStinger]

I thought the FBI had sections which operated like MI5

[DinoDoc]

It does. Which is why that idea won't go anywhere.

[Seeker]

"Someday, our missile defense system might actually save millions of South Korean lives from a North Korean nuclear attack"

LOL, a delusion...

you might find that South Koreans are souring on America recently....

Remember, it is the US that is trying to aggravate the NKs over here, the Japs and SKs really just want to continue the 'Sunshine' Policy.

[Sava]

Success on the war on terror

Let's add some more stuff to the Bush--- BAD List

-- Gave massive tax cuts to the wealthy (Enron received nearly 500 million dollars, despite not paying any taxes from 1997-2000)

-- Cancelled raises for federal employees while approving a pay raise for Congress. The total amount saved by cancelling the raises... 1 billion dollars... almost half of that money could have been saved by not giving Enron a tax cut.

Bush is a moron... but he'll be out in 2004 so it doesn't matter.

[Ned]

Good list. A+ from Republicans, patriots and other such right wing crazies. F- from anti-Americans, Democrats and similar far left crackpots.

To those who have no agenda, Bush gets a B+.

[DinoDoc]

(Enron received nearly 500 million dollars, despite not paying any taxes from 1997-2000)

Should Bush really be the target of your ire? It really looks like you should be more anti-Clinton the way you keep bringing this up.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Seeker
the Japs and SKs really just want to continue the 'Sunshine' Policy.

Even in the face of its apparent faliure?

[Sava]

I am anti-Clinton... he bombed the sh!t out of Kosovo and was the best president in the history of America for corporations. Remember, I'm not a democrat.

The difference with Clinton and Bush is that Bush just gives money to corporate America... Clinton just allowed them to prosper.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Sava
The difference with Clinton and Bush is that Bush just gives money to corporate America... Clinton just allowed them to prosper.

Clinton is the indisputed king of illegal campaign contributions. He took millions from corporations, unions, special interests, even a few chinese arms dealers here and there. He was never one to refuse money no matter where it came from.

But let's look at this issue of corporations more closely. How many jobs do corporations create every year? How many jobs do lower class workers create every year?

Why do democrats insist on punishing corporations so as to give lower class workers more government hand outs? I don't get that! You are going to help lower class workers a lot more by creating jobs than by giving them hand outs.

Corporations are not all evil incarnate. They support the economy and create jobs.

[Sava]

Bah, the corporations create LOWER PAYING expendable jobs... tax money can be used to train unskilled workers or send them to college...

Corporations are the evil incarnates, their sole purpose is to make money at the expense of everyone else. Get off your high horse diplomat because you're just plain wrong.

And now, the money given to corporate America IS at the expense of millions of federal employees who already make, on average, about 20% less than their private sector equivalents. But don't take that as support for privatization. When a democratic government controls jobs, the people in charge have accountability to the people. The second you privatize, you take away accountability and without accountability, you don't have democracy.

[DinoDoc]

Diplomat: <---- "Debating" Sava

[The diplomat]

Corporations are the evil incarnates, their sole purpose is to make money at the expense of everyone else. Get off your high horse diplomat because you're just plain wrong.

What do you think the purpose of business is? Of course it is to make as much profit as possible. That is the nature of capitalism!

But guess what happens when corporations make more profits? They invest that money to create more factories and more offices, and more research etc... They create jobs! Now some of those jobs will be low paying jobs.

But if I were a worker that had just lost my job, I'd prefer a low paying job to welfare checks anyday!

And now, the money given to corporate America IS at the expense of millions of federal employees who already make, on average, about 20% less than their private sector equivalents. But don't take that as support for privatization.

I sure will take your example as support for privatization. If I were a government employee earning 20% less than my private sector counterpart, I'd try to change job as fast as possible. Wouldn't you change jobs if you could earn 20% more money?

When a democratic government controls jobs, the people in charge have accountability to the people. The second you privatize, you take away accountability and without accountability, you don't have democracy.

Stop using silly euphemisms like "democratic government controlled jobs" That's socialism, plain and simple! It's been tried over and over again and it has failed every single time it tried.

Here is why: when government controls jobs, it will essentially sacrifice job growth in order to have job security. The problem is that someone has to pay for all those government benefits. The only way for government to pay for benefits for all, is through higher taxes. Higher taxes burden the economy which makes the need for government controlled jobs even higher, which means that government has to raise taxes even more so as to pay for even more benefits.

I think you see the vicious circle. You end up with a bloated government taxing everybody to death (literally!) so as to insure that everyone has a safe confortable job. It doesn't work!

[Sava]

Socialism tried several times and failed? Are you living in the bizarro world? Look at the Canada and other more socialism-like democracies. Their people have much more opprotunities than in the US.

I know that is the purpose of capitalism... and as DD pointed out, it's pointless to argue with me because I believe capitalism is evil.

I also don't understand why people think its a bad thing to pay like 60 percent taxes. Most people now can't afford health care, education, and housing. THAT MEANS THAT MORE THAN 100% OF THEIR INCOME IS NEEDED TO PAY FOR THOSE THINGS. People look at taxes as being bad, but if say 60% of your income is going towards health care, education, public transportation, etc... YOU HAVE 40 PERCENT TO SPEND ON WHATEVER YOU WANT. How many people (aside from the richest 1%) can say they can spend 40 percent of their income on consumer goods/luxuries, or save it? Hmmm?

The problem with most anti-socialists is that they can't see past their own selfish tendencies. It's the old "blah blah, I don't want the government taking my money".

Well, you need to think outside the box, look past your own selfishness, and think about how worse off life is for millions of people other than you.

[Ming]

Hmmmm... actually socialism should be viewed as an evil and selfish way to do things. The "I deserve whatever EVERYBODY else has even if I'm not willing to work hard and earn it" is the ultimate in selfishness and greed. Socialism promotes laziness and allows people to leach out of the system things that other people work hard for. Totally evil and unfair to those that do work hard

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ming
Hmmmm... actually socialism should be viewed as an evil and selfish way to do things. The "I deserve whatever EVERYBODY else has even if I'm not willing to work hard and earn it" is the ultimate in selfishness and greed. Socialism promotes laziness and allows people to leach out of the system things that other people work hard for. Totally evil and unfair to those that do work hard

This is an erroneous view of Socialism and Capitalism. Capitalism isn't a meritocracy as it is currently practiced, so the implication that hard work = financial reward isn't true. Plenty of poor people work very hard and still get screwed financially.

Socialism isn't necessarily economic egalitarianism (like communism). It's about the government creating a network of support for those who are economically disadvantaged so their basic needs are always met and people are not forced to wallow in poverty. So while socialist programs may provide free healthcare, unemployment, job training, etc., it by no means rewards laziness and tells people they can just not work and expect to see the same things as someone who does work hard.

But people will always say the same old tired fallacious arguments, I suppose--people on welfare are lazy, greedy pigs. Yeah, right.

[Lefty Scaevola]

12. has not done enough to fight spending bloat

[Ming]

Hmmm... I have friends who came over to this country with no money, and couldn't even speak the language... yet they worked hard and have been able to achieve success.

I know people who grew up in the worst parts of the city... where people claim that there is no hope, and that their race puts them at a disadvantage... yet through hard work, they have been able to lift themselves out of the bad situation and be successful.

It's all about choices you make... as it should be. You will probably say that at birth, everybody isn't equal. I would agree... However, this doesn't mean you should give up and quit and just say "poor me, I'm screwed"

The reality is, not everybody will be equal at birth... that's a fact. But it is also a fact that if you make the right choices, and work very hard, you can succeed.

I have never said that all people on welfare are lazy... But I have said that some are, and abuse a bad system.

Good welfare programs help people find work and help them lift themselves up. Unfortunately, many of the current programs do no such thing and only encourage staying in the system. States like Wisconsin have had excellent results with experimental systems that encourage people instead of keep them locked in a system that is an endless cycle of poverty.

There are faults and problems with EVERY system.
You may "think" that one is more evil than another, but it's just an opinion, and others are welcome to think your opinions are evil as well

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by The diplomat




Many of these protections were inefficient, bureaucratic mess that helped no one and certainly not the envirronment nor the economy.

Now we can sign the Kyoto Accord and lose more jobs and hurt our economy just so that we can feel good about yourselves because we can pretend that we care about nature. Or, we can stimulate the economy and protect the environment in a serious way.

Technically speaking the American public although mouthing the support of enviro bills and and acts will, when faced with the consequences of such bills, be in an open revolt.

The American public will all of a sudden be faced with the lack of choices the Euro's are currently faced with wrt automotive travel. No longer will Joe Blue Collar be allowed his 5.0 liter Mustang. No longer will Sally Housewife be allowed the priveledge of cheap produce.

In order to comply Kyoto accords massive cutbacks on green house gasses would need to happen. All everyone thinks of is it is the evil corporations who continue to rape the planet. News flash - Corps , chemical, petrochemical, power producers, car manufaturers etc. create a small percentage of green house emissions. The greatest offender of all is the common everyday citizen driving by himself/herself everyday. Think the greater public at large has a hard time swallowing a reduction in civil liberties, just see what happens when their cars are verbotten.

I get so fed up with the green crowd laying the whole of every environmental problem at the door step of industry. It the consumers and waste of consumers that are the problem, but as we all know it is not politcally expedient to target the voting consumers its much easier to target the evil corps.... ehh.

[Drake Tungsten]

Remember, it is the US that is trying to aggravate the NKs over here, the Japs and SKs really just want to continue the 'Sunshine' Policy.

Not true. While many South Koreans want to continue the 'Sunshine' policy, it is not popular in Japan at all. The South Koreans can afford to hope for the best from North Korea, since they are relatively sure that North Korean nukes will be targeted towards foreigners, not fellow Koreans.

The Japanese, on the other hand, have the most to fear from North Korean nuclear weapons. The historical enmity between Korea and Japan ensures that Tokyo will be a prime target for any North Korean nuke. Popular opinion in Japan is decidedly against North Korea, particularly after the revelations that a number of Japanese citizens had been kidnapped by North Korea in the past. Prime Minister Koizumi has been widely criticized for his continued opening of relations with North Korea.

I don't see where you got the idea that the Japanese support the 'Sunshine' policy, especially since the 'Sunshine' policy is solely the work of the South Korean government and Kim Dae Jung in particular.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[T]he implication that hard work = financial reward isn't true. Plenty of poor people work very hard and still get screwed financially.

I agree. However, making money isn't just about working hard, it's also about working smart. Capitalism favors people who can work to their own advantage. It's easy to work incredibly hard and have trouble making ends meet if you're bad with finances, and it's also easy to work a comparatively light load and do quite well, if you know how to work the system.

The way to be wealthy in capitalism is to work within the free market and provide services or goods that give you the best return on your investment. It's common sense, but too often people ignore it. Capitalism isn't about hard work, it's about getting other people (customers and employers) to make you rich. The trick to that is knowing what they want and making sure that you provide it to them.

[Ming]

Felch X

So true... So true...

It's the people who think they that they should have everything just given to them without lifting a finger who are the true selfish people here.

[Az]

Hey, most chances are that I'll succeed in life (crosses fingers) and I still believe that communism is the best!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Ming
Felch X

So true... So true...

Yeah I have to agree. Thats exactly what capitalism is.

It's the people who think they that they should have everything just given to them without lifting a finger who are the true selfish people here.

Yep....Capitalism is a system where you work HARD and LONG for what you get

[Felch]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Yep....Capitalism is a system where you work HARD and LONG for what you get

Did you read what I said? You can work long and hard and get nowhere if you're not providing something that the market demands. Capitalism isn't about hard work, it's about making other people happy enough that they give you what you want.

Pure capitalism exists here in the United States in the drug trade. A dealer who provides his customers with what they want can make huge amounts of money. Someone who doesn't provide the goods that his customers want will end up broke - or worse. The opportunity for success is there for anybody, from the poorest hood rats to the richest heirs, and it doesn't require much hard work - just the ability to know what customers want, and to provide it for them.

[Sava]

Yeah, the classic... "only the lazy are poor" excuse... its old, and proven to be wrong... NEXT!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Felch X


Did you read what I said?

Apolyton has a wide range of smilies avaible and are routinely inserted into posts in order to alter the tone of the message.

[Sava]

The problem is that Bush is turning America into Texas, the anus of America (in terms of pollution ). While Bush was in office in Texas, the state became the worst polluter. Now, Bush is easing restrictions on automakers to improve effiency. He's loosening restrictions on polluting energy industries and loggin industries. You know what, I would favor killing jobs in order to get rid of polluting industries. And the nature of capitalism will help my cause because the demand for clean energy will produce jobs.

Being against the Kyoto protocol and other enviro bills isn't about jobs, its about letting wealthy, polluting companies continue to rape the earth without accountability.