wave your flag Germany

[Lord Merciless]

What Germans need is a healthy of patriotism: the past shows that they have a tendency to either despise their own country or completely succumb to the nationalism.

[Sandman]

Google searches do not a point make.

So Robert Mugabe's ZANU PF is not really patriotic?

The notion of Patria is much older than that of nation. There is a minor kernel of it inside, but as you youself said, it ususally comes to mean respect for ones way of life, without the blood meaning of nation. The Romans were intensely patriotic though hardly nationalistic (otherwise they would not have been so geenrous with citizenship).

Nationalism will make use of racial theories, but it's much broader than that. Religion, class, and ideology are just as important.

[Drake Tungsten]

Never mind...

[Viking Berserk]

Americans are more proud of their country than most other nations

I bet you aren't half as nationalistic as me

[Viking Berserk]

Nationalism will make use of racial theories

BLABLABLA!!! It's not the important factor, the important thing is that you can feel proud about your heritage.

[Ramo]

Being patriotic is not the same as nationalism.

For Germans, nationalism is the same thing as patriotism since Germany is a nation-state.

[MRT144]

german tourists are not something to be proud of...

black socks, sandals, and shorts...all at the same time...for shame

[Zero]

Originally posted by Pekka
It's against the rules to put your flag if it's not a day (like independece day) it's supposed to be in display. People are very strict about it. You won't see flags anywhere here, except in sport events where you show respect for the flag and paint it in your butt.

We have rules in USA too. Its just that laws state with the word "should". Therefore it can be disobeyed without breaking a law so to speak. MANY people dont know the flag laws. For example, You shouldnt wear flag bandanas and sweaters. Flag "should" be respected and be only worn in certain situation on the armband or back of neck etc of a armed service and other services. Its all stated but I forget.

Also according to the law, the only proper way to dispose of the flag is to burn it in private. You're not supposed to throw away the flag like its some trash. People dont know alot of stuff about flag laws in US, but it really doesnt matter because within the law itself, it states you dont have to obey it.

oh and I agree with you on the clapping thing. Just shut up and let the man talk. Jesus.

Personally, I haven't seen the reoccurence of this, even in the past year. I have seen a lot of healthy patriotism and flag-waving in the last 10 years in the US, though.

Hell no, right after 911, Nationalism and racial bigotry toward arabs were so high here it was ridiculous. Alot of the "patriotic" acts resulted from 911, I cant really see how it was healthy...

[Zero]

patriotism, schmatriotism, nationalism, scnationalism whatever. It is healthy to be proud of your heritage and where you came from, but other than that, whats the point? The world should be moving toward globalization. Economic interest moves people's decision. Our economy is headed in a way where we cannot survive without interaction between the outside nations. Look at North Korea for example. Patriotism and arguing over past bloody atrocities will only prohibit possible relations. We should be thinking of ourselves as citizen of the world more so than a citizen of some state.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

And no, I don't think Germany should revive any sense of patriotism or nationalism. Both are scourges of humanity, and we would do well to follow their example.

[germanos]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Germans I think should be more patriotic. They frown upon any type of flag waving, and they made it illegal to sing the verse of the national anthem that says Germany above all, etc. First off, it's not bad to be patriotic. Repeat after me: Being patriotic is not the same as nationalism. Americans are more proud of their country than most other nations, but we don't believe that people from other countries are lower than us (unfortunately we believed this in the past, but that's over now). Besides, Germany has a lot to be proud of. And the banning of that part of the anthem is ridiculous. When it said Germany above all it didn't mean that Germans were better than everyone else. When that was written, Germany was split up into a bunch of small countries, such as Prussia. It meant to put Germany above all those provinces as a whole. The lessons of nationalism were learned during World Wars 1 and 2, and I think it's now a thing of the past.

Sorry, but your post sort of devaluates itself:

You claim that Americans don't put (people from other) nations below them.
Yet, you do in this post state that Germany should start waving their flag and sing verses of a song they themselves decided not to sing.

Why can't you just accept some people on this Earth think, beleive and act differently then the US, and that it is OK to do so?
No, it is the USA that has the perfect understanding of drawing the fine line between patriotism and nationalism, and it is about time the Germans are being tought that lesson.

You also fail to see that since WW2, Germany has been a strong supporter of the European Union, a movement that, despite all the difficulties it had to overcome, has indeed made a tremendous progress over the past 60 years. Where in the past "Deutschland uber alles" may have helped unite the splintered German nation, they may have now found a new goal: a unification of Europe. Thus "Deutschland uber alles" has become obsolete.

There are very good reasons the Germans, and many other european countries, are not the flag-waving type, and they choose so voluntarily. Try to understand, before dismissing it.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Seneca


Is that us he's talking about?

Well, I suppose he's comparing you to St. Louis.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Heresson
I agree. Sometimes Germans overdo with their care not to be accused of nationalism. Saying: "I am proud to be German" is treated as something very very very bad I heard,
while it seems pretty innocent - and it should be like that.
Treating patriotism as nationalism is dangerous.

The problem is not the sentence as such. It is not used by most Germans, because it was adopted as a slogan by neonazi organizations soon after the end of wwII.

To the original question, I´m not at all for flag-waving, "my-country-is-the-best" stuff etc, etc, but despite that I like my country. I don´t see a reason why I should hate it for things done by Germans more than half a century ago. I´m responsible for my country´s present and future, not for it´s past....

[johncmcleod]

originally posted by germanos:
Sorry, but your post sort of devaluates itself:

You claim that Americans don't put (people from other) nations below them.
Yet, you do in this post state that Germany should start waving their flag and sing verses of a song they themselves decided not to sing.

Why can't you just accept some people on this Earth think, beleive and act differently then the US, and that it is OK to do so?
No, it is the USA that has the perfect understanding of drawing the fine line between patriotism and nationalism, and it is about time the Germans are being tought that lesson.

You also fail to see that since WW2, Germany has been a strong supporter of the European Union, a movement that, despite all the difficulties it had to overcome, has indeed made a tremendous progress over the past 60 years. Where in the past "Deutschland uber alles" may have helped unite the splintered German nation, they may have now found a new goal: a unification of Europe. Thus "Deutschland uber alles" has become obsolete.

There are very good reasons the Germans, and many other european countries, are not the flag-waving type, and they choose so voluntarily. Try to understand, before dismissing it.

Whoa there. I'm not forcing Germans to wave their flag, I just said my opinion about it. Remember, I said 'think'. And that thing about you telling me how that people like me should stop telling Europeans how to run their affairs is the pot calling the kettle black. Europeans are ALWAYS criticizing Bush and Americans. They go on and on about how Bush is evil and such. Don't tell me to not tell others how to run their affairs, the Europeans are the worst.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BeBro


The problem is not the sentence as such. It is not used by most Germans, because it was adopted as a slogan by neonazi organizations soon after the end of wwII.

To the original question, I´m not at all for flag-waving, "my-country-is-the-best" stuff etc, etc, but despite that I like my country. I don´t see a reason why I should hate it for things done by Germans more than half a century ago. I´m responsible for my country´s present and future, not for it´s past....

I know that point, as I already asked You (or Mathias? Or Stefan?) about it once. However, You are behaving according to what John Chrisostom said "don't believe the Devil even if He speaks truth". that's not quite right I think.

Of course You aren't responsible personally for past German faults (though in fact, Your own faults are much bigger ) still, if You consider yourself a German, you are responsible as a part of nation for what this nation has once done.
Well, that's not quite what I think, but I haven't got time for bigger discussions.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Heresson
Of course You aren't responsible personally for past German faults (though in fact, Your own faults are much bigger )....

hehe

...still, if You consider yourself a German, you are responsible as a part of nation for what this nation has once done.
Well, that's not quite what I think, but I haven't got time for bigger discussions.

Well, perhaps I misunderstood, but how can I be responsible for things happened in the past? What I meant was - Germans today in general are responsible for their country today. Of course we shouldn´t forget the past, and the lessons we learned, esp. about Germany´s role between 33-45, but I think nobody who was not directly involved in this should feel personal guilt. Those who committed crimes should feel so (in an ideal case), but not everyone who is a German.

[Arrian]

First off, to expect a German born after WWII to feel responsible in any way for what happened during WWII is ludicrous. That is not to say that one shouldn't expect them to be concious of their nation's history. Acknowledging the past and shaping foreign policy based upon it is one thing (i.e. not sending German troops out of Germany), feeling personally responsible is entirely another.

Everyone has a different concept of what it means to be patriotic. To me, it means loving one's country, but not to the point of blind acceptance of bad policy. I consider it a patriotic duty to be a cynical SOB about the US government. Many, many, many other people, it seems, see patriotism as toeing the official line, waving your flag and to hell with everybody else (nationalism, I guess, though I still don't see much difference between patriotism and nationalism).

And of course "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels." It isn't that being patriotic is necessarily a bad thing - it can be quite good - it's that it is so often used as cover by bigots, religious zealots and the like.

-Arrian

[johncmcleod]

About the nationalism after 9/11. That wasn't really nationalism, we were just being racist by thinking badly of Arabs. But it wasn't that bad. I have heard stories of Arabs being prejudiced, but I remember everyone telling each other to be sure not t blame it on all Arabs. I don't mean to sound like it wasn't wrong to do this, it was bad, but if it takes thousands of innocent people to do just like that to make about a month of some racism, I don't know what it'll take to Americans think everyone else in the world is worse then them.

[David Floyd]

Patriotism is, IMO, just as idiotic as nationalism. I don't support either.

[Heresson]

hehe

I think You know that...

[quote]
Well, perhaps I misunderstood, but how can I be responsible for things happened in the past?
[quote]

If people followed your logic - and there is some right in it- no-one could be accused of anything, as He did some crime yesterday, and today He isn't doing anything bad,
today He is a completely other person.

What I meant was - Germans today in general are responsible for their country today. Of course we shouldn´t forget the past, and the lessons we learned, esp. about Germany´s role between 33-45, but I think nobody who was not directly involved in this should feel personal guilt. Those who committed crimes should feel so (in an ideal case), but not everyone who is a German.

It is a comfortable view, isn't it. And again, theoretically it is right. But as a citizen of Germany, or a member of its
nation, You are as a worker in a company. You may not have liked the former boss and You may be angry about his debts, still, You are supposed to pay them back.
Of course, the question there is when will Germans finally repay this debt... But I think it is not paid back.
Again I have to come back to the things that annoy me so, that in some south-German cities, museums are proudly exposing the loots from Poland taken by Hitler
and the gouverment or no authorities aren't doing anything to return it to rightfull owners. Germany did much, but pretty slowly, sometimes reluctantly, and not fully.

[MikeH]

Let's just say that if anyone tried to make me pledge allegiance to my flag or country when I was at school or now I'd tell them to perform a biologically impossible act on themselves.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Heresson
It is a comfortable view, isn't it.

It is the only point of view that makes sense to me - because an individual cannot take the responsibilty of crimes done generations before. I can understand that this can cause bitter feelings by persons who were victims of nazi rule, but this does not change the fact that people are responsible for their own doings, not for those they didn´t commit.

And again, theoretically it is right. But as a citizen of Germany, or a member of its
nation, You are as a worker in a company. You may not have liked the former boss and You may be angry about his debts, still, You are supposed to pay them back.
Of course, the question there is when will Germans finally repay this debt... But I think it is not paid back.
Again I have to come back to the things that annoy me so, that in some south-German cities, museums are proudly exposing the loots from Poland taken by Hitler
and the gouverment or no authorities aren't doing anything to return it to rightfull owners. Germany did much, but pretty slowly, sometimes reluctantly, and not fully.

Well, if you speak about reparations or repaying debts, I would agree with you. I remember the discussion here about payments for people from other countries who had to do slave work in Nazi-Germany. I think it was a shame that we needed that long time to comply, especially the big German companies which made big profits in that way were much too slow, and could have paid much more (esp. if you think that most of them aren´t poor).

However, my earlier replies were more about individual guilt and responsibility of Germans today.

[Sonic]

No, nationalism isn't the same as patriotism and as fascism/nazism also.

Patriotism - Thinking your country is a good country to live.
Nationalism - Thinking your country is the best in the world.
Fascism - Thinking your country is the best in the world and other countries are very bad.
Nazism - Thinking your country is the best in the world and other nations are so bad that they doesn't deserve any rights.

[Heresson]

It is the only point of view that makes sense to me - because an individual cannot take the responsibilty of crimes done generations before. I can understand that this can cause bitter feelings by persons who were victims of nazi rule, but this does not change the fact that people are responsible for their own doings, not for those they didn´t commit.

You are not responsible for your parents' dids, but You take their heritage - or their debts - after they die.

Sorry, I can't write more right now.

[VetLegion]

You are not responsible for your parents' dids, but You take their heritage - or their debts - after they die.

Heresson what are you talking about? You take your parents debts if they die? So if your father was say a gambler and he dies, you have to repay his debts?


Poland is weird...

[VetLegion]

btw., my opinion

You are responsable for a regime, if you didnt do anything to overthrow it.

[bogi]

Originally posted by VetLegion
[q]

Poland is weird...

"Strange country, where the waiter speaks five languages, and the minister of culture can only communicate in Polish "

Jean Paul Sartre about Poland






Anyway the Germans will always be blamed for WW2 no matter what generation they are from. So the so called "new" germans must accept to be blamed for what their granparents did.

[johncmcleod]

I liked Sonic's way of putting it...but I don't think thinking your country is the best in the world is that bad. Somebody has to be the best, and if you think it's your country, that's fine. Let's say you're the smartest person at your school. By thinking the truth does that mean you're arrogant? I guess you're suppose to just assume someone else is, because you possibly can't be the smartest, thinking that would be bad.

Let's try a different scenario:

You go around the halls telling everyone about how smart you are. That's being arrogant.

Here's another one.

Some people tell you you aren't the smartest, nor the second or third. You argue with them, saying that you are the smartest, and then start debating about it. But you tell them that doesn't make them lower than you, you're just smarter.

That last one is kind of how the we're the best thread got started. I would put it this way.


Patriotism: Thinking your country is a good nation.

Being very patriotic: Thinking your country is the best in the world. The citizens of other countries are no worse than you. You have no right to invade them or anything like that, you're country is just better.

Nationalism: Your country is the best in the world. The people from other countries are not as good as you are.

Fascism: Your country is the best in the world. You need to invade or oppress other countries, they and their people are not as good as you are.

Nazism: Your people are the chosen ones. They other ones should be put into death camps.

[aliveandwell]

nationalism-putting the whole country needs over a section of a country's needs. Ex: north and south. Ex: haynes and webster debates.

[Stefan Härtel]

Let me ask, as a German, why must I be patriotic? Why must I love my country?
I hate Germany. It's not because of all what Germany has done in the past -I do think that Germany has been one of the most criminal nations throughout histrory, and that it has been rewarded for this rather than punished, and that Germany hasn't bled enough- but that's not the point. I hate Germany because of what it is today.
I put Patriotism (to me it's the same as nationalism, jingoism, chauvinism and whatever else it's called) on the same shelve as, say, religion. They're things I have never been able to identify with. I have no problems with people who believe in their countries, gods, whatever. But I do have a ****ing big problem when they want me to do the same -and I've experienced this often enough to know what I'm talking about. I've never believed in any country, any god or anything else like that. The time may come when I start doing so (I don't think that it's going to come, but you never know), but then I want to take this step on my own.
But as for now, and propably as for always, I've got no special feelings towards these 260,000 km² of central european soil.
Or, to put it differently, I'm not a German, not a European, I'm a human.