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Old December 6, 2002, 03:51   #1
brianshapiro
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Postmodern Civ
Its strange that nobody has commented on the postmodernist journal's interpretation of the game; but its more strange that its only been referred to as 'interesting', when it should seem a bit obvious to players that some of the game elements don't suggest what is an easy semiotic interpretation.
It might actually be worth something to interpret games in theory, and i noticed myself some of the silliness with barbarians being represented; but I think this type of review is a bit hollow and falls back too much on cliches of how American culture supposedly views work and barbarians.
Its helpful to see that most of the 'semiotic' content of the game is forced by the abstractions that the game needs to implement to make the concept of 'playing a civilization' work. That things like uncivilized peoples, a frontier, etc., flow from this abstraction shouldn't be taken as insight into deep semiotic repetition, but just problems with the concept of 'civilization' that will naturally appear in a game with that title., and the problems of that concept coexisting in a postindustrial world should also be present in the way the game represents postindustrial society and includes these in structuring the game.
Other than that--ie. to look for hidden sign-systems 'creeping' into the game becomes totally redundant; and the 'speaking of the unsaid content' as is implied, only is seen that way if the 'unsaid content' is presupposed to be arbitrary and not a natural consequence of the abstractions first employed. If its recognized that once the abstraction is used, most of these configurations are entailed, there is nothing to be found in the game and the only thing a semiotic study of that nature can reveal is the political biases of the interpreter towards that abstraction, which again, is predictable. One could predict that as soon as a notion of variation in power is introduced there be criticism of the notions of power, as soon as the notion of goals for a civilization is introduced, there be criticism of the idea of goals.
Both of these things--goals and power--are common structures in games--and that the structure of games may or may not reflect current ways of seeing the world more than anything else is something interesting. An argument of this sort could be used with the same evidence. However, using it to make some statement about American values 'creeping' into the game, I think will just result in a trite analysis. A postmodernist might argue that also the concept of 'game' is at question, but i think my point is against this--that if the analysis proceeds by looking at perceptions as arbitrary then it will miss the real recurrence of patterns, and always fall back on political motives. It has to return to why we look at games this way, and i think, eventually, to why we look at civilization the way we do--and why to some racism seems a natural idea. Only then can cultural connections be found, because its then that it can be identified what actually is a repeated concept in the culture, rather than relying on critical constructs that themselves may have been swamped through recurrent cliche.
Its also important for me to state that I dont agree with people who point out that a game has had no negative effect on themselves to argue something about its cultural effect. So the point in my argument is not to disband the idea there are re-inforcements of 'semiotic practices', but only to deconstruct it and show what really is happening in the game.
The game Civilization can do without the presence of minor tribes and work fine as a game, so its a stretch if someone were to say the game is grounded in any way on the distinction of minor tribes existing. The reasons why they do exist is clear to players: there was some desire for 'random events' and which had to do with exploration, and its strange to consider history in terms of handful of five or so groups (necessarily limited because of the impositions on the game, the same impositions that have the leader live forever); the idea that there is something outside the main groups that could provide random events, fulfills that aim of the game, and naturally falls on things or peoples existing 'disassociated' with the main players. The disassociated is the source of all randomness. It should be noted in Alpha Centauri the random events came about through technology capsules and not the indigenous beings, so the 'goody hut' factor of exploitation was not present despite insistence by the author that the indigenous beings almost 'literalized' the struggle between the West and colonized peoples. In alpha centauri in fact the environment and native life is a main point of the game where the player adapts to respect it and live with it; one of the technologies is 'Centauri Empathy' and the goal is to be 'one with the planet' as the natives already were.
What semiotics can fail at is seeing that the similarities have nothing to do with a shared construct--and i think this bears the case, that the aliens in Alpha Centauri serve part of the purpose that the barbarians serve in civilization; but do not share the same semiotic status. That is, they don't both portray an 'Other that is an outside thing to be assimilated.' In fact, taking Alpha Centauri in the light of its written backstory, your colony eventually assimilates into the native life, through transcendent adaptations. The backstory was in fact written with these postmodern considerations in mind and it was meant to be a counter to 'traditional' concepts of power. Not only this, but they dont even serve as the same kind of 'Other', except in gameplay. The barbarian and the alien creatures, when taken out of their abstractions, are different things; and the only point where they remain the same is the game feature they offer of hostile reaction to certain actions. And the player learns to deal with them differently--but thats not even the point; whats important is that if they're looked at outside of the context of this role, they look like two things inhabiting the same role, and not 'the same thing under two guises'. I.e. not only arent they the Other with two different extensions, but they arent even the same 'other'.
The role, is a role valuable for the way the game is structured, to make it a good game operating with that structure, and not because of a subtext of politics.
But whats valuable from this is to see how this structure naturally falls out from the abstractions in the game. The abstractions are also the source for the inclusion of culture in Civilization 3. For instance its been observed that in fact the world isnt just a collection of cities. If thought of as a a collection of cities, another civilization can come and settle in the middle of your borders. So the 'cultural influence' simulates the popular influence and fortified support in provincial areas surrounding cities. It decreases instantly when the city is taken, and increases again when its taken back. There is an uneasy idea that there are people that may be there already, if not represented by minor tribes.
In the game, the cities also serve as staging points for 'goals' for each of the players, each of which also deal with restrictions as rules. (It may be important to understand that it is not 'indoctrinating people to follow rules' as is suggested, more than the idea that limitations form rules; after all there is much of a freedom in how to play the game and also a freedom in starting conditions and in cultural differences. the rules in the game are that certain things take more resources, etc, movement. how many times have players opted to start a new game because of poor starting conditions and understood it was because of their own laziness sometimes and sometimes not--it would be interesting in fact to show, and i have once before and many other players probably that the rules of abstract-oriented games like civilization , like the rules of language, are generative). All other events have to take place outside of the main players who have their goals. The goals are material changes in the game, so always involve some advancement in changes over other players.
Sid Meier structured the game early on the military, this is why it often involves territorial advancement, this was attempted to be addressed in later versions; and it should be noted that it wasnt originally this way. Originally, Sid Meier was planning the game along the lines of Sim City where things would develop on their own, farms, etc; and the military wouldnt be the main feature of the game. There are infact other games, the Sim games notable, and other city games, like the City Building series of Caesar and Pharoah that try something different also. The final model for the game ended on what was most engaging for the player and most 'game-like'.
A better analysis of native vs nonnative populations could be done with Sid Meier's other game, Colonization. But here, invading the natives can either be an advantage or a detriment; ie it doesnt become a force of nature in the game but another type of peoples. They remain at a different position gamewise from the player and his opponents, this is forced by the span of the game; and its not necessarily negative--one can easily view the contest over the land in the game to be brutal. Enslaved indians and conquered bounties are purposely 'literalized' in the game for this.
Here, another imposition forces the difference between natives and colonizers, and i'm sure the author would term it another 'ruse'. Whether a 'ruse' or not, the attention should be brought on the fact that the 'ruse' is forced by gameplay motives given the subject and not brought in arbitrarily. That the subjects are good subjects is also another issue, morally, or for gameplay. And in each case the 'ruse' is in , its in differently, in the case of Colonization and Alpha Centauri the native forces are looked at favorably.
This should force other discussions--why games turn to scenarios like this for fun, why these scenarios force the construct of a permanent nativity, are based on goals, etc; why we would even view history as a contest of cultures in the form of civilizations, why someone would from this gain a racist viewpoint; etc. Instead, by fixing cliches on the subject, its turned into an implication that if there is any indoctrinating force within these games, it has to do with how the creators 'decided' to portray the native populations.
The last comment should signal how I think this essay should be dealt with; the author takes gracious note to say that the game is just repeating cultural beliefs and not interpreting them, and that it is his job to interpret things. I would like to argue the reverse; that the game Civilization, as a work of 'art' is laying down a primary construction on culture as a contest between groups; and the only way this can be 'deconstructed' is by constructing a game whose features manage the complexities of life better. We need no semiotician to tell us that the boundaries between major tribes and minor tribes are artificially set by abstractions. We need no semiotician to tell us that the goal of world domination is constructed by the game designer. the needs of the construct need to be reconciled with its contradictions, resulting in another game--the 'discourse' must continue itself within its own medium. And it already has, for instance, with other game models.
A player of the game or the culture at large may be effected in different ways, but whatever is the case it should be plain that the reasons the natives have that position in the game are the same as the reasons were seen in that position in life; not because of a subtext, but because of looking at culture in terms of contested desires, as desires that are static and materially game-oriented; and should be remembered that there are other cultural forces that are strong which do anything but 'continue to rationalize genocide of natives'; and most importantly, that someone playing the game will be aware of these two things, and that criticism of the game as a cultural force should recognize the individual awareness of these two things.
In fact I would want to argue that the features that are most damaging culturally are those that really are unthought out and unsaid by the game, the same ones that the author finds 'potentially beneficial'--that is, the idea that history could have turned out any other way it had, that 'what if' games are really possible; its an abstraction that the nature of the game simply 'assumes' without question. I dont want to argue why i find this damaging now; but anyway, to address this one would want to break down the layers of abstraction in the game, get rid of static objects for types of governments, names of civilizations, types of products, and make everything freer--so that types of governments dont come about in a list box, but from real social consequence, that technological development is dependent on industry, that the player has more specific and limited control over the development of his people;etc. This is closer to the real semiotic force of the game.

as a note: as for Call to Power , the natives represented with headdresses was one of the dislikable elements of the game, including Televangelist units and Lawyer units which itemized Western cultural forces into military pawns. It could be argued this is fair; but it could be argued that its fair for headresses to be associated with nativity based on its composition of elements more at hand for natives. But either case is just silly and patronizing for a game thats supposed to be an abstract model of life which is why i found it so distasteful compared to Sid Meier's games. Civilization 3 includes culture into the game in a way thats far more sophisticated and appealing. (an example of how games can have a 'discourse')
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Old December 6, 2002, 04:32   #2
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I agree with you mostly, and you've put it better then I could. I thought they read far too much into the barbarian/native tribes. Its just simply an element of gameplay, it would be like me taking Pac-Man to describe obesity in America. Of course i've never viewed Native Americans in the traditional sense the writer claims most do either. I'm part Native American myself and I view what happened to the Cherokees, and various other tribes as pretty much war.

Either waged by force of arms, culuturally, or economically. I'm not justifying or glorifying the expansion or conquest by America, i'm just not falling prey to the 'tradional' beliefs or anything else. Its simply how i've come to view things. There was indeed a great many wrongs commited, as with all other wars. This war is quite a much longer one, and is for the most part a full scale conquering and absorbation of a civilization(s). It was long and protracted with the Europeans then Americans possessing the upper hand until a long while into it. Only in the last days did tribes put up any significant fight, like in the black hills.

Of course, its almost 3am now and thats just a random jumble of thoughts, so take it as you will.
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Old December 6, 2002, 04:49   #3
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i overlooked that the author saw the what if factor eventually as a negative force i guess because i find his reasoning bad ; he's saying that it says the europeans got to where they were because of their 'spirit' but postmodernists also say the european spirit to do what they did was bad and to say its good is basing your value on a fake construct. there are similar arguments about feminism that have contradictions like that (ie to view hierarchical power as important is based on the patriarchical values, but waah! women dont have hierarchical power) eventually ou have to deconstruct 'spirit/culture' and come down to environmental conditioning, and are talking about the same thing.
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Old December 6, 2002, 05:00   #4
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chaotikvisions,
yeah i think that alot of mistakes come when people think war can be surpressed. and this can be seen in whats happening now with terrorism, the war just happens in a different plane; and even if not talking about terrorism i could argue that war reduced internal, domestic violence. all war does is abstract existing conflict
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Old December 6, 2002, 16:13   #5
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The article omits certain facts, in order to make the author's idea more appealing.

He forgets to mention that in civ2 and civ1, there were sea barbarians who would land on your shores, and who were purely aggressive.

In previous incarnations of civ, the barbarians change names as the time frame proceeds, including guerillas and 'peasant uprisings'.

The author seems to discount the possibility of land masses existing which really are empty of humans. It's not a simply a Christian conceit that Antarctica is empty.

The barbarians are incorrectly referred to as the 'Indians' or the 'barbarian-indians'.

The author mentions that in previous civs, the barbarians would occasionally take over a city. What is not mentioned is that only sea barbarians (who he has ignored) were capable of this in civ1.

My strongest point is the fact that there is little opportunity for American-style colonization, given the rapid development of all civs. By the time firearms appear, there are no barbarians anywhere. Any conflict with barbarian units is on far more even terms than in the age of exploration.

Despite raising some complaints about the game which I agree with, such as the weakened state of the barbarians, and barbarians not forming civs with cities they capture, this is mostly longwinded word salad.

Having said that, I started a thread a while ago about the lategame being too American, so I'm not exactly blamefree.
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Old December 6, 2002, 16:42   #6
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Originally posted by Sandman
Having said that, I started a thread a while ago about the lategame being too American, so I'm not exactly blamefree.
Let's have that link then, so I can include it's content in the rant that is coming.
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Old December 6, 2002, 17:05   #7
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Sorry, it's long gone.
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Old December 6, 2002, 17:18   #8
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well, if it really is long gone , maybe you wouldn't mind rehashing it here for us so we can get to the down to deconstructing your anti-American sentiments... or was it all good
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Old December 6, 2002, 17:42   #9
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Ooh, ooh, I have many anti-American sentiements! Argue with me!
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Old December 6, 2002, 18:40   #10
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Lategame is too American
There are two stealth aircraft in the game. One is more than enough. It's like including Zeppelins.

AEGIS cruiser now hunts submarines, unlike it's real-life role. Phalanx and trireme were renamed to spearman and galley, why was the AEGIS not?

Some of the final techs are distinctly naff, are 'stealth' and 'smart weapons' in the same league as writing or pottery?

Why has 'integrated defence' replaced fusion power as the ultimate tech? What the heck is 'integrated defence' but a shallow military buzzword?

Some of the small wonders should have generic names, instead of The Pentagon and Wall Street. This also applies to the Forbidden Palace.
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Old December 6, 2002, 19:24   #11
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Re: Lategame is too American
Quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
There are two stealth aircraft in the game. One is more than enough. It's like including Zeppelins.

AEGIS cruiser now hunts submarines, unlike it's real-life role. Phalanx and trireme were renamed to spearman and galley, why was the AEGIS not?

Some of the final techs are distinctly naff, are 'stealth' and 'smart weapons' in the same league as writing or pottery?

Why has 'integrated defence' replaced fusion power as the ultimate tech? What the heck is 'integrated defence' but a shallow military buzzword?

Some of the small wonders should have generic names, instead of The Pentagon and Wall Street. This also applies to the Forbidden Palace.
Pentagram, Street of the Wall, and Palace of the Forbidden.

Do you have any better names?
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Old December 6, 2002, 19:28   #12
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You could make the same argument for the ancient era being too Hellenistic. The Colossus, the Lighthouse, the Oracle, and the Great Library are all products of Hellenistic culture, or four of the seven ancient GWs.
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Old December 6, 2002, 19:38   #13
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The Pentagon represents the modern industrial-military complex, an undeniably American thing.

Wall Street represents common stock limited liability corporation, and to a certain degree, the creation of a professional class. Neither is totally American, but the US is the icon of both.

The designers picked names that made sense for the intended audience.

Also, this is just a freaking game. Over-analyzing the cultural ramifcations is...silly.
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Old December 6, 2002, 19:50   #14
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Quote:
Do you have any better names?
Military command centre, stock market, and winter palace. And space program instead of Apollo program.

Quote:
You could make the same argument for the ancient era being too Hellenistic. The Colossus, the Lighthouse, the Oracle, and the Great Library are all products of Hellenistic culture, or four of the seven ancient GWs.
They're great wonders, not small ones. They should be distinctive. Small wonders should be generic, since there are more than one of them. It's just silly to have multiple Pentagons and Wall Streets.
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Old December 7, 2002, 13:08   #15
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so, from what it seems, you really are just p*ssed off about the names of the stuff. If it was a generic name, you'd be happy so it seems?

kind of like that whole egocentric use of semiotics and deconstructivist theory to muddle and confuse what seems to boil down to just a general dislike for the connotation of the word 'barbarian'. And the ridiculous assertion that this is representative of 'Western' mental constructs when it could easily be seen in the Roman culture of expansion and conquest and their perceptions of their neighbors, to name just one example. Which would lead to the conclusion that their can exist (but not necessarily intrinsically) a cultural perception based on any group of peoples' sense of worth (or belief in their own superiority) in relation to another. Look around, that is certainly not a Western phenomenon.

To say this game was designed with the world in mind would not be an untrue statement anymore than to say that it was designed by a group of humans who are as subject as the rest of us to slipping into less-inclusive, more-provincial modes of thought and who are limited, as we all are, by a unique amalgamation of cultural perception, biases, and experiences that could inadvertently have been introduced into the game. Now you design one and see if you don't do the same.
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Old December 7, 2002, 13:13   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ruby_maser
And the ridiculous assertion that this is representative of 'Western' mental constructs when it could easily be seen in the Roman culture of expansion and conquest and their perceptions of their neighbors, to name just one example.
Uh, Roman civilization IS western.
As to the rest of your post, I think you just don't really understand the concepts and constructs of post-modernism.
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Old December 7, 2002, 13:34   #17
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As to the rest of your post, I think you just don't really understand the concepts and constructs of post-modernism.
I don't think you know what I went through in college with that stuff. What's your background in it?

p.s. I'm talking hemispheres here, so no, it ain't western.
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Old December 7, 2002, 13:39   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by ruby_maser


I don't think you know what I went through in college with that stuff. What's your background in it?
So? Just because you took something in college doesn't mean you understand it. My background is university.

Quote:
p.s. I'm talking hemispheres here, so no, it ain't western.
That's funny, because I could have sworn it was a quote... Were you not referring to the writer of the original article? If not my comment is withdrawn. Though, in any case, much of the Roman civilization was in the western hemisphere...
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Old December 7, 2002, 13:46   #19
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he made comments about American values creeping into the game (which I think is more than a little ridiculous). I was just using broader brushstrokes when saying Western, sorry.

I would like to know what aspects post-modernism thought I'm not quite catching. You must have examples to site, but I'm wondering how unbiased a conversation I can have with a person running around with a signature like yours. You wear your feelings about America on your sleeve.
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Old December 7, 2002, 16:42   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ruby_maser
kind of like that whole egocentric use of semiotics and deconstructivist theory to muddle and confuse what seems to boil down to just a general dislike for the connotation of the word 'barbarian'.
I disagree with this point simply because I think there is more to the article than you clam here. Also, given that he's discussing this from a postmodern perspective, the idea that he shouldn't use semantics to discuss a dislike for connations just seems plain ridiculous, IMO.

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And the ridiculous assertion that this is representative of 'Western' mental constructs when it could easily be seen in the Roman culture of expansion and conquest and their perceptions of their neighbors, to name just one example.
I will grant you this point, but I believe it to be irrelevant. Just because it can be found elsewhere doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in 'Western' (shall we say 'American'?) culture. I don't currently have time to search the entire article to see whether or not he said it was exclusive; if so, I withdraw this comment.

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Which would lead to the conclusion that their can exist (but not necessarily intrinsically) a cultural perception based on any group of peoples' sense of worth (or belief in their own superiority) in relation to another. Look around, that is certainly not a Western phenomenon.
I believe that the postmodern aspect missing here is that of of the case of postmodern mini-narratives and modern grand narratives. In essence, to explain the culture's sense of itself with a sense of worth is more modern than it is postmodern.

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To say this game was designed with the world in mind would not be an untrue statement anymore than to say that it was designed by a group of humans who are as subject as the rest of us to slipping into less-inclusive, more-provincial modes of thought and who are limited, as we all are, by a unique amalgamation of cultural perception, biases, and experiences that could inadvertently have been introduced into the game.Now you design one and see if you don't do the same.
True, it is difficult (probably impossible) to get completely outside of your culture (esp. the way you perceive things). However, this is not a good argument to not try to move towards a more universal and less regional game. In general, I don't tend to go for 'I'd like to see you do better' arguments. I think they tend to be reactionary and defensive, rather than working with the given criticism to ultimately move dialectically forward.
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Old December 7, 2002, 16:55   #21
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Originally posted by ruby_maser
he made comments about American values creeping into the game (which I think is more than a little ridiculous). I was just using broader brushstrokes when saying Western, sorry.
I think there are definitely American values in the game, though they're not exclusively American. The point about building power iin virtually all games is valid, IMO, though. How many multi-player (AI being considered as a player) games have you played that aren't competitve? My mom went out of her way to buy me a few games that were co-operative rather than competitive when I was young, but other than those, I can't really think of any (BTW, has anyone heard of these games? I can't quite remember what they were called, but it seemed to me that one was about growing vegetables and making sure had enough to eat, and another was about trying to get the group to GRandmother's house or something). Even the sims, which isn't really competitive, espouses consumerist values, which I would argue are, in fact, primarily (though not exclusively) American.

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I would like to know what aspects post-modernism thought I'm not quite catching. You must have examples to site, but I'm wondering how unbiased a conversation I can have with a person running around with a signature like yours. You wear your feelings about America on your sleeve.
I wear my feelings about America on my sleeves because I believe there is no greater nor eviler(?) force in the current world, on the whole. I'm not sure what would make you think my conversation would be any more biased as a result of this than your lack thereof.
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Old December 7, 2002, 19:26   #22
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Originally posted by punkbass2000 I believe that the postmodern aspect missing here is that of of the case of postmodern mini-narratives and modern grand narratives. In essence, to explain the culture's sense of itself with a sense of worth is more modern than it is postmodern.
I'm not sure you or I know what you are talking about. Would you like me to post the web address of the article you ran to in order to get that crap?

I'm glad you think postmodern doctrine is missing from the statement you were referring to because it was never meant to have it. It doesn't matter which school of thought you apply it to, fact is fact. America did not invent the concepts of subjugation. And to say it is a modernist of postmodernist statement is really to miss the point.
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Old December 7, 2002, 19:56   #23
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Originally posted by punkbass2000 I wear my feelings about America on my sleeves because I believe there is no greater nor eviler(?) force in the current world, on the whole. I'm not sure what would make you think my conversation would be any more biased as a result of this than your lack thereof.
I may love my country but I would not blindly defend its past transgression just as I do not defend its subjugation of native people on this continent (it certainly wasn't the first to do so, though). I'm dispassionate about the issue.

Your signature is all the proof I need to know you've got alot of anger in you. Maybe some of it is legitimately pointed at America but probably not, and it doesn't take a genius to know that that can cloud your judgement. Your age in your profile suggests you'll outgrow this though
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Old December 8, 2002, 02:31   #24
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Originally posted by ruby_maser


I'm not sure you or I know what you are talking about. Would you like me to post the web address of the article you ran to in order to get that crap?

I'm glad you think postmodern doctrine is missing from the statement you were referring to because it was never meant to have it. It doesn't matter which school of thought you apply it to, fact is fact. America did not invent the concepts of subjugation. And to say it is a modernist of postmodernist statement is really to miss the point.
Objection withdrawn.
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Old December 8, 2002, 02:38   #25
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I may love my country but I would not blindly defend its past transgression just as I do not defend its subjugation of native people on this continent (it certainly wasn't the first to do so, though). I'm dispassionate about the issue.
What makes you think I'm any different? I'm not sure why you assume that I must be some sort of extremist or that your pro-American views are any less biased than my anti-American. Though you have provided an argument for why you may not be biased, you have not demonstrated why I would be.

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Your signature is all the proof I need to know you've got alot of anger in you.
Then you need to get a fact checker. I have a ridiculously small amount of anger in me. Just the opposite, in fact. I can't tell you when the last time I was angry was, but I can tell you it was last millenium.
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Old December 8, 2002, 16:03   #26
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2 cents: PB2G, I think you have an exaggerated view of what constitute "American values." America is a young country, and most of its values are derived pretty directly from Europe.

I would agree that there is no greater military force than America's armed forces, and that there is no greater economic force than American consumers. But, to hear someone embrace postmodernism so strongly and then talk about great evils is silly.

For what it's worth, I found the article under review here to be a mostly useless piece of observation that masked its lack of sophistication with big words. (For that matter, I think a lot of postmodern sholarship does this.) brianshapiro gave a better criticism of it than I could, so I will only add this: what I find most objectionable about that article is not necessarily what it got wrong, but rather that it doesn't say anything interesting even if it was right.
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Old December 8, 2002, 17:14   #27
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Originally posted by MiloMilo
2 cents: PB2G, I think you have an exaggerated view of what constitute "American values." America is a young country, and most of its values are derived pretty directly from Europe.
Where they came from is irrelevant.

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But, to hear someone embrace postmodernism so strongly and then talk about great evils is silly.
I am not a post-modernist. IMO, post-modernism is rehashed sophism, though with less focus on profit. I don't know where you got the idea that I 'embrace' postmodernism.
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Old December 8, 2002, 17:33   #28
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I am not a post-modernist. IMO, post-modernism is rehashed sophism, though with less focus on profit. I don't know where you got the idea that I 'embrace' postmodernism.
Fair enough. I must have misread one of your posts above. This info makes your positions more consistent, though unfortunately no less objectionable.

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Old December 8, 2002, 19:47   #29
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Fair enough. I must have misread one of your posts above. This info makes your positions more consistent, though unfortunately no less objectionable.

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Objectionable? Maybe. Wrong? Maybe. Free Country? Yeah right.
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Old December 8, 2002, 20:42   #30
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by punkbass2000
I take it you think that guy should be able to spurt out anything he wants. There are limitations to personal freedoms in every country, punk. Ours just espoused the concept of having as few as possible. There has to be rules.

You can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre either. It's one thing to not be able to threaten the life of a president, but this is just too much

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