Engine/Propulsion

[Jeremy Buloch]

The people would have to be a type 1 civilization though. To harnest the entire energy output of a planet.
"A Type I civilization would be able to manipulate truly planetary energies. They might, for example, control or modify their weather. They would have the power to manipulate planetary phenomena, such as hurricanes, which can release the energy of hundreds of hydrogen bombs. Perhaps volcanoes or even earthquakes may be altered by such a civilization."
-J.B.-

[Kuciwalker]

Sounds good.

[Kuciwalker]

Not the type 1 stuff. The fusion ramjet.

[Jeremy Buloch]

My point is:

The civilization would need to be of a type 1 in order to have "Ramjet fusion engines". So Humans being currently type 0 having "Ramjet fusion engines" is very unlikely. It would take by a physics estimate a centuary.
Professor Kaku stated:

"For a Type I civilization, one can envision newer types of technologies emerging. Ram-jet fusion engines have an even larger specific impulse, operating for years by consuming the free hydrogen found in deep space. However, it may take decades before fusion power is harnessed commercially on earth, and the proton-proton fusion process of a ram-jet fusion engine may take even more time to develop, perhaps a century or more."

I hope you understand now. As I have stated this before.
-J.B.-

[Leland]

I know that "ramjet fusion drive" sounds awe-inspiring. Perhaps it shouldn't be the base-level drive, but something you have to work for a little bit to obtain? The first drives could be solar sails or regular fission engines (handwaving away speed or fuel consumption issues, if need be).

But then again, I must confess that I think most methods of interstellar travel that would make sense in a game like this are utterly unrealistic. So I don't really care what the drives are as long as they have some basis in reality (i.e. you have something to write about in the blurbs that fools non-physicists) and have cool names.

[Jeremy Buloch]

yes, but which first drive shall we make? These are type 0 civilization drives:

Chemical rockets
Ionic engines
Fission power
EM propulsion (rail guns)

Solar sails are, I think a bit too far in the future. Here is why...

"Laser or photonic engines, because they might be propelled by laser beams inflating a gigantic sail, may have even larger specific impulses. One can envision huge laser batteries placed on the moon which generate large laser beams which then push a laser sail in outer space. This technology, which depends on operating large bases on the moon, is probably many centuries away."
It would need to have a civilization of type 1.

now fission drives is a possible "yes".
-J.B.-

[Jeremy Buloch]

Here is also some interesting information on the time of how long it will take to attain civilization type status of I, II, and III:

"Physicist Freeman Dyson of the Institute for Advanced Study estimates that, within 200 years or so, we should attain Type I status. In fact, growing at a modest rate of 1% per year, Kardashev estimated that it would take only 3,200 years to reach Type II status, and 5,800 years to reach Type III status. Living in a Type I,II, or III civilization"

-J.B.-

[vovan]

Originally posted by Jeremy Buloch
"Physicist Freeman Dyson of the Institute for Advanced Study estimates that, within 200 years or so, we should attain Type I status. In fact, growing at a modest rate of 1% per year, Kardashev estimated that it would take only 3,200 years to reach Type II status, and 5,800 years to reach Type III status. Living in a Type I,II, or III civilization"

I am a little curious about the rest of that article. Could you cite the source of that, JB? Or is it the same one for raccoons?

[Jeremy Buloch]

Same one for raccons? I dont quite understand that.

It is quoted from Dr. Kaku. Hint the quotes around it.
-J.B.-

[vovan]

Originally posted by Jeremy Buloch
Same one for raccons? I dont quite understand that.

In the very first post on the engine you posted the source:

Originally posted by Jeremy Buloch
http://www.4raccoons.com/~wayne/longway.html

Therefore, I was wondering if your very last quote was from one of the articles for raccoons also

[Jeremy Buloch]

I have no idea where you got that URL cause I didn't put it nor did I locate it anywhere in the post. It may have been seen by accident by you. Or it may be there and I have gone temporarly blind.

Maybe someone can lovate it for me. Then quote it.

[QUOTE]Since I found no topic on this, I took the liberty of creating one.
These Propulsion systems would be created by a type 0 civilization. So it would be in the early game. It would mostly be for Stellar Exploration, and/or Aircrafts.

"We are a Type 0 civilization, which extracts its energy from dead plants (oil and coal). Growing at the average rate of about 3% per year."

- Chemical rockets
- EM propulsion (rail guns)
- Ionic engines
- Fission power


"Type I – this civilization harnesses the energy output of an entire planet.

A Type I civilization would be able to manipulate truly planetary energies. They might, for example, control or modify their weather. They would have the power to manipulate planetary phenomena, such as hurricanes, which can release the energy of hundreds of hydrogen bombs. Perhaps volcanoes or even earthquakes may be altered by such a civilization."

Later more complex and faster propulsion engines would be created and manufactured. These are for a type 1 civilization.
The Theoretical ones are as follows:

- Photonic drive
- Ram-jet fusion engines



"A Type II civilization may resemble the Federation of Planets seen on the TV program Star Trek (which is capable of igniting stars and has colonized a tiny fraction of the near-by stars in the galaxy). A Type II civilization might be able to manipulate the power of solar flares."

Type 2 Civilization would develop these systems. I dont think this game would be able to harbor a type 3 civilization.

- Antimatter drive
- Von Neumann nano probes

"Propulsion systems may be ranked by two quantities: their specific impulse, and final velocity of travel. Specific impulse equals thrust multiplied by the time over which the thrust acts. At present, almost all our rockets are based on chemical reactions. We see that chemical rockets have the smallest specific impulse, since they only operate for a few minutes. Their thrust may be measured in millions of pounds, but they operate for such a small duration that their specific impulse is quite small.

NASA is experimenting today with ion engines, which have a much larger specific impulse, since they can operate for months, but have an extremely low thrust. For example, an ion engine which ejects cesium ions may have the thrust of a few ounces, but in deep space they may reach great velocities over a period of time since they can operate continuously. They make up in time what they lose in thrust. Eventually, long-haul missions between planets may be conducted by ion engines.

For a Type I civilization, one can envision newer types of technologies emerging. Ram-jet fusion engines have an even larger specific impulse, operating for years by consuming the free hydrogen found in deep space. However, it may take decades before fusion power is harnessed commercially on earth, and the proton-proton fusion process of a ram-jet fusion engine may take even more time to develop, perhaps a century or more. Laser or photonic engines, because they might be propelled by laser beams inflating a gigantic sail, may have even larger specific impulses. One can envision huge laser batteries placed on the moon which generate large laser beams which then push a laser sail in outer space. This technology, which depends on operating large bases on the moon, is probably many centuries away.

For a Type II civilization, a new form of propulsion is possible: anti-matter drive. Matter-anti-matter collisions provide a 100% efficient way in which to extract energy from mater. However, anti-matter is an exotic form of matter which is extremely expensive to produce. The atom smasher at CERN, outside Geneva, is barely able to make tiny samples of anti-hydrogen gas (anti-electrons circling around anti-protons). It may take many centuries to millennia to bring down the cost so that it can be used for space flight.

Given the astronomical number of possible planets in the galaxy, a Type II civilization may try a more realistic approach than conventional rockets and use nano technology to build tiny, self-replicating robot probes which can proliferate through the galaxy in much the same way that a microscopic virus can self-replicate and colonize a human body within a week. Such a civilization might send tiny robot von Neumann probes to distant moons, where they will create large factories to reproduce millions of copies of themselves. Such a von Neumann probe need only be the size of bread-box, using sophisticated nano technology to make atomic-sized circuitry and computers. Then these copies take off to land on other distant moons and start the process all over again. Such probes may then wait on distant moons, waiting for a primitive Type 0 civilization to mature into a Type I civilization, which would then be interesting to them. (There is the small but distinct possibility that one such probe landed on our own moon billions of years ago by a passing space-faring civilization. This, in fact, is the basis of the movie 2001, perhaps the most realistic portrayal of contact with extra-terrrestrial intelligence.)

The problem, as one can see, is that none of these engines can exceed the speed of light. Hence, Type 0,I, and II civilizations probably can send probes or colonies only to within a few hundred light years of their home planet. Even with von Neumann probes, the best that a Type II civilization can achieve is to create a large sphere of billions of self-replicating probes expanding just below the speed of light. To break the light barrier, one must utilize General Relativity and the quantum theory. This requires energies which are available for very advanced Type II civilization or, more likely, a Type III civilization.

Special Relativity states that no usable information can travel locally faster than light. One may go faster than light, therefore, if one uses the possibility of globally warping space and time, i.e. General Relativity. In other words, in such a rocket, a passenger who is watching the motion of passing stars would say he is going slower than light. But once the rocket arrives at its destination and clocks are compared, it appears as if the rocket went faster than light because it warped space and time globally, either by taking a shortcut, or by stretching and contracting space."


-J.B.-

QUOTE]

-J.B.-

[Jeremy Buloch]

ok I did a more thourough search of the thread and found it. It however was not found where you specified. It was in another section of the thread not the first post. The info I gave was from that site but it is not the same site I found the civilization stuff.
I misunderstood what you meant. So now its all cleared up

I read on a website this:

"The fastest way to get from here to another star, Antares for example, is to accelerate at one G for half the trip, turn around, and then decelerate the rest of the way. With modern ramjet fusion engines you can do that. After about a year you're going close to light speed. At that point, you can't really speed up much more, but what happens is that time slows way down for you. It works out to be about two years of travel for you, including some time on Antares, but since Antares is about thirty light years away, by the time you get back more than eighty years have gone by for those who stayed behind. Can you imagine how it would be to come back after a trip, and find everybody you knew dead or ancient, and everything different? Your only friends would be your crewmembers and you would get pretty sick of them after two years." "http://www.4raccoons.com/~wayne/longway.html"

So would "Ramjet fusion engines" be the answer?
-J.B.-

[Leland]

It seems to me that the Kardashev classification scheme is way too coarse for the game purposes... on Kardashev scale, the game will start out as class 0, but close to class I, and end a little bit beyond class II. Some realistic technologies like von Neumann probes will probably be have to ignored for gameplay purposes, and some other non-relistic techs like FTL travel need to be introduced, which probably means that related "real" techs have to be hurried up. Antimatter engines for example should show up at latest mid-game, way before reaching class II.

[Jeremy Buloch]

I dont think the civilizations in the game should reach type II status. I think they should reach only type 1 status and stay that way for the rest of the game. It would take hundred years to attain type I then the techs. will come at different various times after that. The techs wont come right after they attain type I status it will come gradually. Yes the game would be close to class I but only hundred years behind Type I. So its not too bad. Class II would be too far into the future. Besides that requires being able to harnest the entire energy output of one star.
Type II status would take approx. 3,000 years to attain so it shouldn't be included in the game.
-J.B.-

[Leland]

Yes, you're right. But methinks anti-matter drive should still be in the game, before FTL travel. Or at least as a power source for the FTL engines, if nothing else. Above, it was said that AM is class II stuff, so you'll have to fudge things a little bit to include it.

[Jeremy Buloch]

Well I dont really want to fudge around with the known laws of physics unless everyone agrees first. I will make a poll on this paticular subject.
-J.B.-

[DeathByTheSword]

i dont believe in FTL engines more in the idea of something like gateways

[Kuciwalker]

I think that fudging is absolutely necessary in a game.

[DeathByTheSword]

fudging? did i miss something

[Jeremy Buloch]

Gateways are theorectical because they are the same things as Black holes and white holes. Black holes provide the means of going into a gateway and the white hole is the exit. If the person(s) is able to withstand the emmense gravitational field and Large amounts of Radiation then they would be able to go through the Gateway.
The Humans wouldn't be able to create a Gateway because it requires a type III civlization. It is pretty clear that we cant have a type III civilization in the game.
Yet consider this:
If we were to make one of the aliens create gateways and the humans find the gateways then it can be done. The humans wouldn't understand the physics behind it so they would not be able to replicate any of them only able to use them. So I'd say that would be able to be done.
-J.B.-

The previous post about this Idea was deleted accidently and I had to re-write the idea. I hope I got everything.

[targon]

IMO, white holes are completely imagenary. They do offend General Relativity.
Our Universe may develop really funny topology and geometry, but at large scales, where mass of the volume in question is't any Newtonian (== may accelerate free-falling probe body to near c). This stuff is completely irrelevant for any but meta-galaxy scales (hundreds of Mps at least) and beyond the scope of StP plot (I hope. Or fear?). If I correctly remember, gravitatic radius of the mass M is 2*G/c^2, G here is gravitition constant. You see, G is pretty small, and c^2 is big: you need a lot of mass to punch space/time continuum any hard.

[Jeremy Buloch]

There are growing theories that there are white holes that are negative and the black holes being positive. Therefore without the white holes the black holes would have no point of exit. BTW the theory is only a theory and is yet to be proven false. So therefore it works enough for me. If we dont have this then what would be the Stargate? If we were to have them.
-J.B.-

[targon]

The only proven theory nowdays is General Relativity. It has to be corrected for quantum gravity effects taking place for densities not less than ~10^94 g/cm^3. The only known event of such magnitude is Big Bang. Possible any black hole also will do, but in infinite time for any unaffected person.

[Jeremy Buloch]

"A critical look at this issue must necessary embrace two new observations. First, Special Relativity itself was superceded by Einstein’s own more powerful General Relativity (1915), in which faster than light travel is possible under certain rare conditions. The principal difficulty is amassing enough energy of a certain type to break the light barrier. Second, one must therefore analyze extra-terrestrial civilizations on the basis of their total energy output and the laws of thermodynamics. In this respect, one must analyze civilizations which are perhaps thousands to millions of years ahead of ours."


And here is something else:

"The first realistic attempt to analyze extra-terrestrial civilizations from the point of view of the laws of physics and the laws of thermodynamics was by Russian astrophysicist Nicolai Kardashev. He based his ranking of possible civilizations on the basis of total energy output which could be quantified and used as a guide to explore the dynamics of advanced civilizations:

Type I – this civilization harnesses the energy output of an entire planet.

Type II – this civilization harnesses the energy output of a star, and generates about 10 billion times the energy output of a Type I civilization.

Type III – this civilization harnesses the energy output of a galaxy, or about 10 billion time the energy output of a Type II civilization."
-J.B.-

[targon]

Originally posted by Jeremy Buloch
...General Relativity (1915), in which faster than light travel is possible under certain rare conditions.

UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS?

[Jeremy Buloch]

I currently dont have that answer and since its 2:33 am I am too tired to look. Later perhaps or you look it up.
-J.B.-

[targon]

J.B.!
I'll absolve you things you've written due to 2.33 pm.
Nighty night.

[Jeremy Buloch]

ab~what? um ok whatever.
-J.B.-

[Blake]

I believe the conditions are when the distance is too short to for the FTL travel/transfer to be useful (like at planck length...)

To create a wormhole, one requires exotic matter, that interacts with normal matter in very.... special ways (like normal matter doesn't). Should such matter be discovered/created, it would be possible to create wormholes that extert very acceptable forces on travellers (~1gee).
So all we need is to invent "Exoticite" and wormholes can be created within the current laws of physics.

[targon]

For any distance less than Planck's, there isn't such a thing, "length". But for any longer "leaps", General Relativity is perfectly O.K. (and forget about Mach's principle!).
J.B. was miguided by phase/group light velocities, IMHO. J.B.?
About "negative matter", this stuff is completely imagenary. Can't say anything about this, but any cosmic rays corresponds to "normal" matter and it's really difficult to hide any particles from modern particle physics. New interactions/particles/matter may exist, but its strength/mass is greatly limited (really low stregnth == very high mass).
I think that game must be play-tested with STL travel/FTL communications (orders etc) first and then adjusted for more playability.