Keeping the Game interesting

[Special K]

Hey there...I love SMAC/SMAX...I play as often as I can, and I haven't found a new game that has really caught my attention as much as Smac still can (maybe Shogun)...

That being said, lately I have had a hard time getting excited for the middle/end part of the game...once you are established and things start running smoothly...I have tried using custom factions to spice things up, and I always have my opponents selected randomly...

My question for everyone is, how do you keep yourself going long into games? I play on the 2nd hardest and hardest levels...don't allow myself to save and reload...and generally try to avoid overusing crawlers and probe teams against the AI, since they don't seem to stand a chance then...

What about you? Have you been able to customize your game so that you can finish a game out without being bored? I like large/very large maps...just about medium settings on everything else?

Thanks for any feedback you have...

Kevin

[WhiteElephants]

Ahhh... the ole' Industrial Auto., Air Power, MMI, hang up. Yes, Yes, Yes. This odd strain of boredom has been known to run rampant in experienced SMAC'ers. Other than finding curious ways to shoot yourself in the foot I would recommend multiplayer games as a human opponent is far more unpredictable than the AI.

[Googlie]

Try giving all your tech advances to everyone.

G.

[Bkeela]

This is a regular problem for me. I most enjoy the first part of the game: the establishment of new bases, the race for territory, technology and secret projects.
The middle phase is usually occupied by war, and this can be entertaining enough, but not as fun as the first phase. But the end phase; when every faction has been conquered, and victory is assured, can be rather dull. I sometimes get slight stimulation by keeping the peace between my various puppet factions (who surrendered to me way back), but even this can become tedious after awhile. So 90% of all my games are abandoned once my power is complete.

I suppose a tougher AI is a logical solution to this dilemma, but I think ultimately, the player must always have a goal in which to aim for. What these goals could be, must be something greater than mere secret projects.

One game that I loved, and which I never had this problem with, was Colonization. During this game, there were a constant stream of goals, whether it be the race for technology and territory, or the aquistion of specialist workers (that darn tobacco planter was always very alusive), or war and conquering the other colonies. But instead of a race for some final project, like in Civ or SMAC, the final phase was the invasion of your colony by your mother nation. And every moment preceding this final conflict, was essential, and if anything, I always prolonged it as much as I could. The final conflict was very challenging, and once finished, so the game ended.

Thus if this concept could be transferred to SMAC, it might solve this dilemma. Maybe instead of the dumb SMACX story of the aliens landing around the same time as the earth colonists, maybe if they landed at the end of the game, with a great force, this would give players something to look forward to, or dread. Or maybe a revolution now and then occuring in your faction would liven things up. I don't know, but I just hope that CivIII isn't the same old, tired and worn out formula.

Bkeela

[Ned]

Bkeela, Good idea about the Alien invasion force appearing at the end. You might make the force appear at a certain date meaning you have to win by other means before then or be able to beat the invasion force who would, naturally, be allied with any of your enemies that still remain.

Or, perhaps, if anyone builds a "resonator," this will call in the Alien force to aid them.

[Googlie]

Bkeela:

I looked thru the alphax.txt to se where the 2105 number was (the aliens arrive), but couldn't find it (thinking to just change the text to 2300 or something, and then give them some great starting techs).

When you see the movie about the aliens coming it sure doesn't seem like just five years after palnetfall, so i wonder if Firaxis originally intended the aliens to arrive half way thru the game but realized that it wouldn't be very attractive for human players if they only played for 200 turns?

The other thing a friend suggested was to use quick start, but to give all the other factions an extra tech or two that would see your struggle as being even more uphill since they would be better developed.

I still think hacking the text/program to have the aliens come at 2300 and to give them level 10 techs would be cool.

Googlie

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Googs et.al.

I really like the idea of aliens being an AI controlled faction and like many here hardly if ever play them.

If Firaxis had considered making them only AI factions then the later start could have the game a much different flavored one. Then an option could have been enabled for early landing, mid game landing, or late game landing at 2105, 2205, and 2305 respectively. In each of these situations the landing force would have to be different. The later the landing the more pods, beginning techs, units etc. All the time looking to make sure the aliens are superior to the humans.

In many respects the game then would be similar to MOO2 wherein the Antarans make raids into the known world every so often and with their superior technology cause human players to adjust their strats throughout the game.

An interesting concept.

[joer]

I've been hit with that problem, but somehow, giving myself numerous artificial disadvantages didn't cut it.

The solution I found was simple: SNAC (Shinning's AC mod), to be found and downloaded on this site.

It altered the tech tree, terraforming and attack possibilities of several key factors in a human strategy that mid-game conquest is much harder. D:AP comes much later (after Adv. Mil. Alg.), defenses are much stronger and choppers are made much weaker and moved up in the tech tree quite a bit. Forests are decreased greatly in usefulness (0 energy by default) and lots of other stuff makes conventional human strategies much harder to apply.

I was really impressed how changing some basic settings and rules for everybody could make the AI so much better and more competative, and, ultimately, more fun for me.

It's really something I can recommened to everybody to take a look at.
-joer.

[DilithiumDad]

Currently I am trying one of those suggestions: giving all your tech to every AI faction. This makes single-player much more like multiplayer, where you are generally playing at the same tech level (give or take a tech level or two). But giving away your tech is not all that easy! Miriam in particular professes not to be interested. Sunspots ruin everything.

I also suggest putting certain Secret Projects off-limits. Let an AI faction get them to even out the odds:

1. Hunter-Seeker. This one is too powerful anyway. Let Zach have it so he has a fighting chance.

2. Planetary datalinks. With Tech Parity policy in effet, this becomes an important means of spreading tech. Make sure a worthy AI faction gets it.

3. Citizen's Defense Force. You don't need it; let the AI have it.

4. Cloning Vats. Over-powered. Oddly enough, I have found that the AI is very reluctant to build it, even when given the tech. Could add interest, if the AI ever actually did complete it.

This "Tech-Parity Challenge" is different from a standard game, where you are trouncing the AI with superior tech, even when playing the Hive or Believers. here aer some differences:

1) Probe teams become much more useful, as the AI factions are much more likely to have some tech worth stealing. If you give away all your tech, then let the AI work on the next tech up, you can steal the tech from them and the whole game accelerates.

2) The AI will like you a lot. In my first trial of this, I was the Gaians pressed up against the Believers. I gave them everything --Air Power, even. They were "seething" but never attacked as long as I gave them new tech every few years.

3) The requirement that you always share tech complicates Vendettas. When the AI demands tech for the end of a Vendetta, you have to give them the tech, which end the Vendetta. Then you have provoke them all over again if you are interested in resuming your war.

4) If you sell your techs for 25 credits, you can end up quite rich (sell each tech to 5 other faction leaders --that's 125 credits a tech!). In SMAX, you can often get 50 or even 100 credits for each tech. This can really improve your cash flow.

5) Obviously, warfare is much more challenging when the two parties have equal tech. You have to reply on superior production and tactics.


------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

[Googlie]

joer:

You're right. I'd forgotten how much improved my games were when playing SNAC.

I didn't really follow the threads to see if he had made a SNAX, so since the release I've been playing SMAX - but often with the original factions.

I'll go reinstall SNAC (got deleted in my PC lobotomy) and revisit it.

Did he ever so a SNAX?

Googlie

[Basil]

JoeR: Do you play SNAC with the terran.exe or with terranx.exe?

Di Dad: Regarding the AI building the Cloning Vats: my experience is that the Usurpers beeline for the tech and build it very fast once they've got the tech. If you look at the descriptions of the secret projects in alpha(x).txt, you can see that there are customizable values to tell the AI how much it should value the different SP's, depending on whether the AI faction is interested in building, conquering, etc. So you may want to change these settings for the Vats.
[This message has been edited by Basil (edited July 01, 2000).]

[Chowlett]

Actually, that's another thing SNAC adjusts well - probes can't steal tech anymore. That's a real blow for militaristic humans (particularly Miriam), but almost no change for the AI who don't seem to do it much anyway

[joer]

Basil: I played SNAC with the standard Terran.exe. I don't consider ACX that much superior over ACT that I needed it. SNAC with the standard Alpha Centauri balances the game quite well as it is.

I do not know if there is a SNAX version out.
-joer.

[Helium Pond]

I find self-limiting to be essential to enjoying the endgame. Infinite City Sprawl is the game-killer for me, though it's unavoidable in multiplayer. I usually decide on a base limit, usually around 10-15, and keep it at that. It's actually not that much harder to win the game (after all, it can be done with *one* city!), the game goes much faster, and it's more fun. I wish they'd put an option in somewhere to put a ceiling on bases, something like "Can't build pods after you've built x number of bases." That woulda been cool.

[Bkeela]

Hmmm, I've never thought a limit of 10-15 bases as self-limiting. This is about the average number of bases for me. Sure, I aquire alot more bases than that by conquering other factions, but once they have served their purpose for me (by being a platform for further conquests, or by supporting my army), I either destroy them, or else give them to friendly factions. (By giving them to friendly factions who have more than likely just been routed by the faction you wrested them from, not only gets them off your hands [the bases], but by building up a friendly faction, they will inevitably turn against you later on in the game, and hence you can go and invade them, but this time with a more technologically advanced army.)
I've read about some people having up to 100 bases in a game - for me this would be a giant yawn. I couldn't cope with all that managment without getting highly irritated.
By the way, if anyone needs more than 15 bases to win the game, I question what their playing ability must be like.

Bkeela.

[Deathwalker]

Is it just me, or did any of you find SMAC borring. I got and I have been playing Civ 2 since it first came out and I still like it. But SMAC was borring I got bored in the first month and have not touched it since?

[Googlie]

Not so much boring, given the wealth of diplomacy options and faction characteristics that Civ II never had, but disappointing in it's ability to carry you along all night (the 'just one more turn' syndrome)

Biggest disappointment was in the ending. You can just buy ascent (in fact the game almost forces you to do this as every faction can build as soon as one discovers).

With Civ II there was the nail biting rush to get the spaceship completed, and even after the AI had launched, often with a partially built 15/8/3/ship, there was the calculation "can I in the four years left build a 36/16/3 and overtake it" And oh, the luxury (and score) if one was able to build a 39/16/9 ship.

Classic adrenaline rush that smac loses.

Someone in the old OWO forums described smac as "having no soul" because of this, and I tend to agree. But I still play more smac than civ, because the playing of the game is so much more interesting (and I'm a science fiction fan anyway) - but the ending sucks.

Googlie