Going for 500 AD landings on standard maps

[La Fayette]

No, solo,
He's just busy bringing shame on the forehead of previous record holders in the field of 'Conflicts in Civilization' scenarios.

(La Fayette, one of those)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
samson/solo ... below is the 4000BC start for that game in 2.42, playing as the Vikings. My 875 landing was a restart after knowing a lot about the map. No freights were ever rehomed.
Starting techs are reasonable with: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws and Masonry. The real bonuses were the large number of huts, the proximity of two gold mountains, the massive amount of real estate and the Indians who can be found early in the game.

------------------------------- SG(2)

SG(2),

I have searched but cannot find the thread where you logged that game. (Perhaps I have mis-remembered reading this thread??) If it exists, could you please post a link, or the general time frame when it happened??

The elegant economy of solo's approach has inspired me to try to learn some new (for me) tricks. It is very satisfying to have 50+ cities producing 50+ shields/turn, but the turns take forever. I thought reading your log would help me figure out a new plan. I know I must learn a more lean philosopy for building white goods; and to get to one turn advances faster, for example.

Thanks (2) and thanks also to solo for your thought provoking posts providing the reasoning behind your gameplan. Your understanding of the subtle points of this game is so profound. I had so many "aha" moments reading over your accounts that I was giddy. This is an amazing game.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks BM ... I'm sure I posted the final 874.sav file before landing some time ago. I will try and dig out the thread.

-------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Thanks, BM.

I would also like to see details about that large map game SG(2), to see how our strategies for large map games compare.

I have finished my own large map game and was a bit surprised to land in 435 AD, which is even ahead of my time on the standard map!

Long range trade becomes so profitable in the second half of the game, I was finding that no science from cities was needed! After building a fast ship, I still had over 7,000 gold and a few freights left over.

So many more huts on larger maps increased the inflow of gold and "free" techs in the early game, and the AI were better learners, too, since they also benefited from this.

My conclusion is that it is actually easier to land before 500 AD using large maps than it is with medium ones, but there may have been unique features of the start I used that made the difference. I will try this again, using the large map start SG(2) provided, to see if my newest strategies also work with it.

For now, here is the save made just before the landing.

[La Fayette]

solo,

You look like a real commuter between Earth and AC, whichever size of map you choose
May I be your bodyguard next time?

(La Fayette, convinced that samson doesn't beat this one before Christmas)

[Scouse Gits]

solo Excellent game knocking centuries off my 875

Please try my map! I will post the final save after you have played the game. Without giving too much away the entire game was a hutfest and a trade sleaze. Although the terrain offers a good SSC the number of huts gave me the problem of too many free techs ... Warrior Code and Feudalism tend to slow things up! I never went into Republic as I had loads of settlers. I made the jump from Monarchy to Democracy after Magnetism when Leo's upgraded my long ship chains of caravels into galleons so avoiding unhappiness with units away from home.

---------------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

La Fayette,

This is the second game in a row in which the barbarians captured Paris. They must have a taste for French wine and cuisine!

SG(2),

I doubt if 500 AD is possible using your start, but I am giving it a try now. I am finding enough huts, but still have not found the purple civ, who you mentioned were close by. This must be relatively speaking, or else they are just across the water, where I am headed now with my first trireme.

I got Writing from one of my first huts, so with only two more steps to get to early Republic, I skipped Monarchy. This will be a big difference between our two games, since you went with Monarchy a long time. I did get Horseback Riding from a hut, which I didn't want, but Warrior Code has not been added, YET.

So far, quite a few advanced tribes (I'd rather get nomads). Two of them were in good spots, but the others I cancelled by building settlers. Even though more happy cities are a good bonus coming with large maps, I like to make sure each one I keep is a real contributor in some way. There's no room for those marginal tribe locations.

My plan in this game is for more early trade, so I have decided on a the SSC site having two fish, a whale and furs as specials, because this one has access to the ocean. With Shakespeare's Theater coming in a few turns, I can home all triremes with this city so as to keep them all active and moving after the switch to Democracy. However, I am considering the site having access to the gold specials as a mini-SSC, and may end up locating scientific wonders there.

You may be interested in trying a game with the start I used, which came with Monarchy. Nothing like that as a freebie, allowing you to make the switch in 3850 BC! The start is attached below:

[Scouse Gits]

solo - The Indians are on another continent. The site with the gold mountains was my SSC and from memory your spot with the furs was my capital. I opened around 60 huts and received about a dozen techs.

Will have a look at your start.

----------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

SG(2),

Well, I had some time today to finish my game using your map, and my landing date was 761 AD, not much different or better than what you did in your game. I think this just goes to show that with skilled players, landing dates will be fairly close when the same start is used. This map was fun to play a game on. Thanks for providing it.

I hope you are giving it a try with my start, as I think it gives the best shot of landing much before the dates we both got with your large map start.

It might be fun to compare details about both games, and compare the advantages and disadvantages of the two starts.

My save below was made on the turn of launch. I did not play it out to the end. The barbs took one of my cities the turn before launch.

[La Fayette]

You make me feel like giving it a try (though there are so many scenarios left to play ), but I'm afraid I'm not good enough at early landing to provide useful information
(good news BTW: samson doesn't seem to have published any new surprising result, so he's probably busy )

[solo]

La Fayette,

Like OCC and other specialized ways of playing Civ II, it takes a little practice to get the hang of playing early landing games, but they are a lot of fun.

Attached below is another large map start I found to tempt you with, with Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Monarchy coming as free techs. Settlers are located in the middle of a huge continent that is loaded with huts.

Sometime I should get around to trying some of these scenarios, but may not get the chance before Rise of Nations is released, which I suspect will keep me quite busy, since most reviews of the press betas so far have been very enthusiatic about the design of the game.

[La Fayette]

'Rise of Nations' ? Is it that kind of game that is going to be released early 2003 in the US and early 2004 in France?
Anyway, I sleep very quietly , since I know I have at least ONE American friend who is able to send the game to me if needed
I try your 'early' start first and swear I'll give you the result and some details, so that you can have a good

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... very well played

I post my final position below. My game was too elaborate and lacked the minimalist finesse of your technique.

I will try one of your starts.

---------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

La Fayette,

Hopefully, Rise of Nations will be what Empire Earth could have been. It is the first game being done by Brian Reynolds with his new company, Big Huge Games. Brian was the one who came up with Civ II and SMAC, while working for Sid Meier, so there are high hopes for RoN. If you want a copy, I will try to make yours the first one that arrives in France.

Have fun with your early landing game and don't expect too much with the first try. It takes a lot of practice.

SG(2),

I took a look at your save and came away impressed with how large and well developed your Viking empire had become in the amount of time provided. That rail line almost all the way to the South Pole was more than I thought possible before 1000 AD.

With so many huts and with so much to be made from trade on large maps, I am starting to think that that minimalist approach does not suit them the best. Techs certainly come quickly from huts early on, and later their acquisition is easy to sustain from trade, making a strong SSC less important than it is on smaller maps.

I am leaning more towards your approach in my latest game, since it is less dependent on having that very rare, but ideal, SSC site that the minimalist approach almost requires for its success. The main difference is that I will still be going for early Republic, for its early research boost and higher "happy" city limit.

[solo]

I just finished another large map game, with a landing date of 295 AD, and am beginning to think that large maps are the best choice for early landings, since their many advantages more than make up for the higher tech costs.

In this game, my SSC started with a wheat, a silk and two hidden silk. The other city tiles featured 2 ocean, 1 hill, 4 forest, a few plains, and the rest were grassland. There were no rivers, but there was time to convert every city tile into an excellent trade arrow producer. The SSC ended up producing over 1100 beakers, which is very good, but it was the addition of scientific improvements and superhighways to my 5 best helper cities that provided enough extra science to sustain two advances per turn after the discovery of Automobile.

In large map games, there comes a point when lucrative freights can be produced and delivered quickly enough to produce a snowballing effect, where enough income per turn has become available from trade to rush the next turn’s group of freights, which in turn, produce more than enough income to keep the rushbuying going. Any surplus amount can be funneled into the purchase of helper city libraries, universities, superhighways, and research labs, resulting in the production of enough supplemental science to sustain 1 turn advances.

Since well over 1000 in gold (and trade arrows) is possible each turn by making freight deliveries, two advances per turn become the rule, rather than exception, for the rest of the game, after the discovery of Automobile provides superhighways. It takes longer to get to Automobile on large maps than on the smaller ones, but if this can be done near the transition from BC to AD years, a large map game can really accelerate to an early landing date.

Near the end of my game, my cities were putting out almost 2000 beakers, still enough to research fusion power as the second of the last pair of advances needed before a launch. Of this 2000, over 1100 was from my SSC, over 600 came from the 5 improved helpers, and the rest came from the 10 regular helpers. Below is attached a save made the turn of the launch.

[Bloody Monk]

Congratulations Solo!!

Less than three months ago you launched this thread to break the 500a threshold for landings. Now you are breaking 300a!!!

Wondering how long before 10a falls....

Happy New Year

[Caesar the Great]

*jaw drops*

congrats

[Bloody Monk]

Hello Solo,

I have been looking at your 476 game and have a few questions if you don't mind.

1) I notice there is still a temple in Atlanta. Even with Shakespear's is a temple still necessary?? Or is it just that you never needed to sell it, cash being abundant...
EDIT: What I'm really wondering is if you are going to build Shake's, do you still need a temple??

2) At what point did you move the Cap to Atlanta??

3) How quickly did you: lay down the first 7 central cities; build the Lib in NY; build trireme and start exploring??

4) What WOW came next after ST??

Thanks for your help. I'm trying to figure out this approach.

[solo]

BM,

1) The temple was used to get to size three, before Shakespeare's Theater was built. The switch to Republic is made before ST is available, so martial law does not work at size 3.

You are right that the temple could have been sold later to raise more cash, if needed. The same goes for the aqueduct and sewer system, once the SSC has reached maximum size. They can be sold to raise extra emergency cash.

The reason I hold on to these improvements was for just such emergency situations, where cash runs out and just a little more is desperately needed. During this game, I did not need to tap this emergency reserve, so they were left in place.

2) I moved the capital to Atlanta just after the launch, to keep it a bit safer, in case of AI or barbarian attacks. This was probably an unnecessary precaution, but it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

3) The first 6 cities are laid down as quickly as possible. After founding my capital and New York, I got an advanced tribe and a nomad from huts almost immediately. Two more settlers were quickly built to found 2 more of the the original six cities. Some gold from early huts helped to rush these settlers. By the time the switch was made to Repuclic, another settler had been built and another nomad found, allowing the immediate construction of cities 7 and 8. Cities 9 and 10, on the other continent were developed by nomads found there, and then founded when the switch was made to Democracy. Other advanced tribes tipped from huts were disbanded by making settlers, which joined the others making roads, etc.

Two triremes were rushed as soon as Map Making was discovered, a tech given earliest priority. At about this time, explorers had tipped all available huts and had found the AI on the home continent, and needed something more to do. Locating all the overseas AI early was important, so that I could station NON units found from huts nearby to wait for barbarian leaders that bounced off AI cities and units. Barb leaders became the best source of early income.

The library in New York was built after netting a barb leader near the Carthaginians. This happened about a half dozen turns before ST was built in Atlanta, and took a few turns off the research of techs being learned during that period, before the SSC had been able to expand and contribute more beakers.

4) The next wonder after ST was Copernicus, to quickly double the available SSC beakers while the SSC grew.

I found the 476 game to be much more difficult than subsequent games on large maps, even though I had better luck with huts and barb leaders on this medium map in the early going.

Don't forget that although it was a random start, I had used it in the previous rehoming game, and that pre-knowledge of the map lends a significant advantage, since I knew where I wanted my SSC and knew all of the AI locations in advance.

I hope this info helps some. I may add some more details in a bit, especially about helper cities and how I develop and use them to promote early and rapid SSC growth, an idea that seems to work very well on medium and especially well on large maps.

[Bloody Monk]

Thank you, Solo!! You are so incredibly generous with your knowledge. After some real life intervention, I'll study your ideas fully. Just wanted to quickly express my appreciation now.

[solo]

BM,

Thanks, and you're welcome. It's been fun to share ideas. Here is some more about helper cities:

Unless they can help, helper cities are no help at all

This may seem obvious, but during early exploration, huts that are tipped may produce an advanced tribe in a fertile region or a nomad nearby an ideal city site having 4 excellent specials, but in the early part of an early landing game, only cities having proximity to the SSC are useful in promoting its early and rapid growth. Having “colonies” early in the game only increase corruption and promote unhappiness in productive helpers adjacent to the SSC.

Ideally, at the time the SSC reaches size three, the switch will have been made to Republic, Medicine will have been discovered, and surrounding helpers will have produced and delivered the six caravans needed to make Shakespeare’s Theater.

So ideally, and in order to do its duty and deliver its own caravan to the SSC in time, a helper must:

1) Be just a few steps away from the SSC.

2) Be founded on grassland, preferably rivered grassland.

3) Have enough extra grassland (on rivers, if possible) so that it can grow without having to irrigate, and/or have one or two food specials within its radius.

4) Have two or more forests, or specials that give extra shields without mines, within its radius.

5) Have access to the ocean.

It is unlikely all, many, or even any of the 6 helper locations will fit this ideal. It is also possible that the start may offer a special situation (such as the gold mountain site used by New York in my 476 game), but all helpers should come reasonably close to fitting the ideal requirements above. Thus:

1) It is no good having only 5 out of the 6 caravans needed to build Shakespeare’s Theater, and then having to wait 10 more turns for that 6th one to arrive. That last helper’s caravan might just as well have started out from Mars, for all the good it does. However, the caravans from helpers on the fringes of the core group can be rushed, as needed, so that they have more time for traveling.

2 and 3) Helpers need 3 (preferably 4) extra food to grow quickly to size 3, a good size for making caravans quickly. Once at that size, the extra food is needed to support that helper’s settler under Republic, and to support city workers wanting to switch from grassland to forested tiles to increase production. Try and do all these things after founding a helper on a hill, on a forested tile or on the plains, and it becomes obvious that grass is best for city hall.

4) Shoot for at least five shields and one supported settler from each size 3 helper.

5) It’s best if each helper has the capability to build, support and accommodate a trireme. Perhaps only two helpers like this are required, but having more on the coasts increases flexibility and options.


Helpers should get to size 3 as soon as they can. Since a temple is required to keep each helper happy at size 3 under Republic, helpers should start on these first, once 6 cities are in place. Hopefully, enough gold will come from huts and barb leaders to finish off some temples as cities reach size two. These cities can continue by building triremes or diplomats, to continue explorations. A few of the military units tipped from huts can be stationed in other cities, allowing them to finish off their temples before reaching size three.

Once at size three and with a temple in place, a helper is ready to make the settler it will support. I like to micro-manage this, timing the build of each settler so that it coincides with the production of 30 food in the city’s food box. Sometimes slower growing helpers that are good producers are better off making a trireme, or even a caravan first, so that their settler is built to coincide with the next full food box.

By micro-managing settler production this way, the city can grow to size 3 again, immediately, where it is most productive. Most of these settlers will be needed to road and irrigate the SSC, so that its growth will be uninterrupted once it begins to celebrate. Others can start connecting helpers to the SSC with roads. After the settlers are built and put to work, each helper becomes a caravan producer, to help build ST and the other wonders needed by the SSC.

Of course unique situations create exceptions to these general rules for developing helper cities. For example, some helpers may by strong on shields but lack enough food to support settlers, whereas others with extra food may be able to support two. The former could make two caravans while the latter produces an extra settler. But for the most part, the build order of temple, settler and then caravan has worked best for me for helper cities used in early landing games.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo for a very helpful insight. Congratulations on the 295 landing.

------------------------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

solo

I join BM and thank you
... but I don't read you too carefully just now, because I am busy playing the game and I would like to finish it before I have a second try making use of your very good advice.

(La Fayette, now in the early ADs, but still very far from victory)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by solo
BM,

1) The temple was used to get to size three, before Shakespeare's Theater was built. The switch to Republic is made before ST is available, so martial law does not work at size 3.

This is a major learning experience as I have never gone Rep this early and I didn't put those pieces together. Sadly, facts don't equate with understanding in the absence of experience. Thanks for breaking it to me gently.

Originally posted by solo

You are right that the temple could have been sold later to raise more cash, if needed. The same goes for the aqueduct and sewer system, once the SSC has reached maximum size. They can be sold to raise extra emergency cash.

The reason I hold on to these improvements was for just such emergency situations, where cash runs out and just a little more is desperately needed. During this game, I did not need to tap this emergency reserve, so they were left in place..

I figured that you didn't need the $$. As for the temple, I was wondering if the 40g early plus stopping the maintanence expense might argue for dispossal.

Originally posted by solo

2) I moved the capital to Atlanta just after the launch, to keep it a bit safer, in case of AI or barbarian attacks. This was probably an unnecessary precaution, but it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think it would be necessary earlier; but, after launch it seems a good play.

Thanks for the other bits about cities, WOW, and the other questions. It is very helpful.

Bloody Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Your piece on Helper Cities is a Gem!! Thanks much. I am trying to absorb all this and have a go at your map at the same time. The doing of it all is the best anchor for this new knowledge.

There is seemingly a lot of tricky trade-offs in getting this job done. I need a troop for martial law under Mon and a Temple for Rep; and, I need Settlers for new cities, roads, and improving the SSC; but also, triremes for exploring and constant camels. Oh, and every city to size three.

And that's just to get me to the ST WOW--in...1400b. Well, that date may be a bit ambitious for the old Monk, but I'm plugging away. Can't tell you how much fun I'm having with this!!!

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

This is fun and am learning a lot in the doing of it all. I make no pretext that I am actually playing a game as I am making liberal use of your notes, following along like a cookbook, as it were. I have used your city sites except Wash where I misremembered.

I alternate between being amazed and confused. I did not go Republic until the 1700-1650 cycle. It just seemed too daunting trying to build camels in 2-shield cities, and without the 'demand' $ possibilities. And most of my cities lacked Temples until 2100.

However, with the cash from tribute and the 10 extra shields per turn (while a Monarchy) I built ST in 1500. Now I am raising camels for an Observatory. There are a few questions I have if you would be so kind, again...

1) I know it is hard to compare games (the hut outcomes alone could make for huge variability); but, I was wondering what I gave up in researching techs by staying in Monarchy.

If you have the .sav for the year 1700, I had 17 advances and the rate was 6 turns. As a Republic in 1650, the rate was at 4 turns. (This did not include a Library in New York, which I did not complete until 1550.)

2) Do you recall when Cope's was completed?? And Colossus??

I was a bit surprised to see the Colossus in your Atlanta. Were you able to get your camels' worth from it?? And am I correct that you were referring to HG and not COL in the following quote from the "One Turn Advances" piece on page one of this thread??

"...the extra trade arrows provided by the Colossus are superfluous, since 1 turn advances can be secured with an SSC even without the help of this wonder. Thus, Pottery can be bypassed, avoiding the carrying costs of one more tech."

I could be wrong but I don't think those two (Pott-Col) go together.

3) At what point did you start trading from Atlanta to get its routes and is there a strategy about the order of the trade goods you send out (position 1,2 or 3)??

Well, thanks again for sharing your wisdom.

[solo]

BM,

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have switched internet providers and it took a bit to get my account here back in order, allowing me to post.

I'll bet you located Washington one tile south of where I did. I wanted it on the coast so it could build triremes and zip them to Atlanta to shift support. Making triremes is a helper job, and Atlanta had better things to do.

I have found my save for 1700 BC and will attach it. This is when I was ready to build ST, myself. Doing so yourself, just 4 turns later is worth a pat on the back. It's tough to get those first 6 caravans ready in good time.

1) By staying in Monarchy you're rate of tech acquisitions can be much slower than it is in Republic. By 1700, I had a little over 20 advances. I did get quite a few of the earlier ones from the AI, but no more help from them later in the game. My early library in New York, made possible by killing a barb leader, must have made a big difference, too. I do not remember getting more than one or two techs from huts. I hope you were remembering to gift all new techs to the Mongols, the key civ.

2) Copernicus came after ST, probably about 10 turns or so later. The Colossus was added later, but I forget exactly when. I did mean the Colossus in the quote that you refer to, and not the HG, and was mistaken in associating the Colossus with Pottery instead of Bronze Working. Of course with temples in helpers and with ST in the SSC, the HG is not needed, and would not really help much if used, because it expires too soon.

I think the Collosus is well worth building in medium and large map games, since it adds many trade arrows, giving a good increase to beakers and to income. In small map games, which concentrate more on early science, the SSC has enough beakers, allowing this wonder to be skipped. Why add extra science, when you already have enough?

3) I send the first three caravans from Atlanta to Rome, to get that road connection trade route bonus in place quickly and to make sure that these 3 routes "stick". After that I trade with overseas AI cities demanding Atlanta's goods for the higher income they provide. If you do it in this order you will notice that the 3 Rome routes (with higher values) always stay in place in Atlanta's display, unaffected by subsequent trades. Trade elsewhere first, and you might find it difficult to get those prized Rome routes into all 3 trade positions.

If Rome's routes are established first and the road bonus is obtained, the order of those trades or ones subsequent to them does not really matter. However, in a game where the road bonus is not a factor, I like to trade the middle commodity first, as this gives the best chance of keeping the supply list unblocked later on.

Well, that's it for now, and it sounds like your game is going pretty well in spite of the extended stay in Monarchy. In my game, I got to Republic quite early, but a lot of this was due to research help towards it by the French. Perhaps they were not so accomodating for you, or researched other subjects in your game.

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Thanks for the quick reply and the .sav. I hope your new ISP works out.

I just started looking over the save and the thing that jumps out most is your empty cities. I had no idea this was a safe tactic. By putting a warrior in each city I was way behind in completing temples and starting on camels.

With the Neighbors we have I never imagined one could get away with leaving the flag down everywhere. When did you start on "Homeland Security" in this game?? And is this a usual tactic for the early game??

Washington I built on the river adjacent and south, as you guessed. At the time (before you sent the paper on Helper Cities) I just didn't think ahead about ships. And thanks for the "pat on the back", but really, I was just following your plan.

1) I did remember to do a regular tech gift to the Mongols; but, I didn't begin trading tech with anyone yet, as I was still researching Medicine in 1700. I also had yet to meet the Japanese or the Aztecs and had tripped many fewer huts.(only one boat finished so far)

I had 17 techs (not 13) to your 22, but I'm not sure how many of the difference were due to Republic, huts, or trading. (Looks like two, Iron Working and Wheel, came from trading; and Chemistry, at the least, from Huts.) I also had 95g less (Huts??).

2&3) The other big benifit from Republic is celebrating up in size. I assumed you built the Observatory next, but how soon did you build an aqueduct -v- the three routes to Rome?? And did you use the first camels from Atlanta for ST and Cope's or to send to Rome??

Thanks, Solo.

[solo]

BM,

1) When you are rated Supreme and are keeping the neighboring AI attitudes high enough with tech gifts, they will not attack. You have to play this way enough to feel secure about this, but I assure you that they can be kept peaceful through tech gifts up until you launch your space ship. (Things are different in Civ versions ToT and even MGE, but I assume you are using Civ 2.42)

The only risk is from barbarians, but they usually give a turn or two warning, letting you rush a defender in time to protect the city under attack. I usually use a diplomat to do this, and bribe one barb to kill the other, if need be. In that save, notice that barbs are about to go after Paris, which made me nervous enough to start a phalanx in New York, my most vulnerable city, just in case.

In early landing games, you have to take your chances with barbarians. I have lost a few games early to them by taking this chance, but in games where they attack elsewhere or when I can defend in time, it pays to put resources into other things, rather than invest them in shield-consuming defenders, since they are hardly ever needed.

Finally, if you lose a city to the barbarians, all is not lost unless it is your SSC. Losing a little helper city is not a big deal, unless you are emotionally attached to the idea of keeping it as your own. We humans can be quite possesive, and irrationally so, when it comes to keeping our own cities in Civ II games!

Earlier in this game, when I felt more vulnerable, I did have some warriors in some cities long enough to get my temples established, but disbanded them right afterwards to help rush caravans and to free up the shields they were hogging.

2) How to deal with ships is a major consideration in early landing games, because you have to wait for galleons OR have all ships homed to the SSC when it comes time to shift to Democracy, which is an event you do not want to delay.

This is complicated by the fact that you want good payoffs from caravans delivered early on, and that when you have acquired both Navigation and Invention, these payoffs are cut dramatically. If you delay Invention, you also delay Democracy and delay the benefit of using engineers. If you delay Navigation, you are stuck with triremes and caravels and you also delay Railroad and the use of freights.

For these reasons I prefer an SSC with coastal access, allowing ships built nearby to be rehomed. Washington was on the coast for this reason.

3) Yes, 13 techs seemed a bit low to me, even when you consider your delay getting to Republic. 17 sounds about right to me, when comparing games.

Huts act funny sometimes (and thanks to hutfinder I zero in on them as quickly as I can with two early triremes). In the game I played with SG's map, I always seemed to be getting advanced tribes. In my first game with this map, I kept getting techs from huts. In my 476 game, I was getting more than my fair share of gold.

4) In the save, you'll see a trireme headed to Japan with a caravan from Atlanta. By the time it was delivered, Atlanta had already celebrated up high enough in size to give a good payoff (several hundred gold), which allowed me to rush the aqueduct, just before it was needed to continue the celebration.

In my last post, I forgot to mention that my very first SSC caravan was shipped to an overseas AI, because the need for gold is greatest at this point in the game. It was the following three, delivered to Rome after a connecting road was in place, that gave me the high continuing trade route bonus. (This happened much later). In between these events, many caravans that were produced by Atlanta were used to contribute towards wonders being built there.

I hope that clears up some questions. I would be interested in seeing a save from your game, too, the next time you update here with a post.

I am trying another standard map game now, which came with 8 free techs at the start! Not bad!

Attached is the save of this newest start.

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... An exceptional start for a Medium World - which I raced to inspect

Actually it's seven starting techs ... eight is very rare on a Standard Map.

We should really take one of these delicious starts and try an early landing succession game with you as chief tutor at The Institute

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SG(2)