Can a 13 year old girl be a lesbian- and if so, should she go to gym class?

Dis · December 18, 2002, 04:21

It seems like a young age to be sure of your sexuality. Hell even at that age I probably wasn't even sure I was a heterosexual.

In any case when this girl was in the 8th grade (It is possible she was 14 at the time, many 8th graders are 13 though), she was not allowed to go to gym class because of her sexual orientation made the other students uncomfortable.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/17/le...uit/index.html

And in my quest to provide silly polls, I shall think of one...

... edit: The poll centers around lesbians since girls mature faster than boys and it wouldn't be right to lump them together at that age.

Asher · December 18, 2002, 04:24

This thread title made me spit out my sunflower seeds when I read it.

Dis · December 18, 2002, 04:28

my job here is done then

Robert Plomp · December 18, 2002, 04:37

I think I've read several times that people can't be sure about their sexual orientation until they're 19.
It might change several times before that age.

But why not go to gym? I'm heterosexual, but I've
been at the gym lessons with girls as well....

alva · December 18, 2002, 04:43

I thinks , he's refering to the dressing room

monkspider · December 18, 2002, 04:43

I agree that it seems unlikely that someone would be certain of their sexual orientation at that point. It's certainly quite a bit of a slippery slope to say that she shouldn't go to gym class just because her classmates are uncomfortable. This is segregation, pure and simple.
Heck, most female gym teachers are lesbians! I'm not sure why there is such a conflict over this!

Imran Siddiqui · December 18, 2002, 04:45

The (alleged) reasonable was that other girls were uncomfortable in the locker room changing in front of her and what not.

Robert Plomp · December 18, 2002, 04:45

Quote:

I thinks , he's refering to the dressing room

I got that.
But I still don't see the problem.
Does a lesbian girl look different than a heterosexual girl?

Imran Siddiqui · December 18, 2002, 04:48

No, see the other girls thought the lesbian girl would hit on them.

Gatekeeper · December 18, 2002, 04:53

Heh. Bill O'Reilly was going off the deep end tonight on young women in high school who were "experimenting" with lesbianism by taking their frienships with fellow females, uh, into the romantic realm (it was mutual, of course).

He pretty much linked the decline of Western civilization to "immoral" things like lesbianism (real or "experimental" in high school. At least that was my impression.

Gatekeeper

Imran Siddiqui · December 18, 2002, 04:58

And that is why O'Reilly is a wacko... and also why people watch him.. it's like Jerry Springer, only supposedly 'news'.

monkspider · December 18, 2002, 05:00

I think there is a real social pressure for girls to be either bi or lesbians in this society right now. Thus creating the "lipstick lesbian" phenomena of girls briefly experimenting with lesbian behaviour in their high school or college years.
While I don't think this has any relation to any sort of a decline in morality, this trend is unfortunate in that it creates a breech of trust for hetero males seeking serious romantic relationships. Since they have to be suspicious of what girls their girlfriend are hanging around with, as well as what guys. Creating a two-front war of sorts.

Gatekeeper · December 18, 2002, 05:05

Bill O'Reilly ticked me off tonight, and makes me wonder how I can even agree with him the 1 time out of 10 that I do now. Believe it or not, he does make sense once in a blue moon or so.

Gatekeeper

Sikander · December 18, 2002, 05:06

You got this from one of those Teen Lesbo websites that spam didn't you?

Solly · December 18, 2002, 05:09

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I think there is a real social pressure for girls to be either bi or lesbians in this society right now. Thus creating the "lipstick lesbian" phenomena of girls briefly experimenting with lesbian behaviour in their high school or college years.
While I don't think this has any relation to any sort of a decline in morality, this trend is unfortunate in that it creates a breech of trust for hetero males seeking serious romantic relationships. Since they have to be suspicious of what girls their girlfriend are hanging around with, as well as what guys. Creating a two-front war of sorts.

I agree. It's also being seen in males as well, especially in left-wing cliques who, desperate to prove their trendiness through "tolerance" and "individuality", announce that that they are bi.

Pretty pathetic really. You're one or the other.

Rufus T. Firefly · December 18, 2002, 05:09

Whether or not it's possible to be sure of your sexual orientation at 13, isolating the kid because other kids feel uncomfortable is just plain wrong and will be hugely damaging. Gay teens are already the leading demographic of kids who kill themselves; you'd think teachers in California (of all places) might have a clue about that.

Idiots.

Ned · December 18, 2002, 05:10

She should be introduced to Roman Polanski.

Asher · December 18, 2002, 05:12

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I think there is a real social pressure for girls to be either bi or lesbians in this society right now. Thus creating the "lipstick lesbian" phenomena of girls briefly experimenting with lesbian behaviour in their high school or college years.

Huh??

There's social pressure for girls to be bi or lesbians in society?

Just when I thought I'd seen it all.
Last time I checked, the social pressure was to be straight. You know, what with common sense and all...

I wanna know where you got the idea that there's social pressure to be a lesbian...

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's
I agree. It's also being seen in males as well, especially in left-wing cliques who, desperate to prove their trendiness through "tolerance" and "individuality", announce that that they are bi.

Pretty pathetic really. You're one or the other.

God...I don't even know what to say to you.

You're a stupid, stupid, stupid, small little man, Spink. That's about all there is to it.

Sikander · December 18, 2002, 05:13

Usually children who take big stands on their sexuality at such an early age have some serious troubles. While I completely agree with the sentiments expressed here that people should be left alone and their choices in life respected, there may be more here than meets the eye. If not, then leave her alone.

monkspider · December 18, 2002, 05:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher

Huh??

There's social pressure for girls to be bi or lesbians in society?

Just when I thought I'd seen it all.
Last time I checked, the social pressure was to be straight. You know, what with common sense and all...

I wanna know where you got the idea that there's social pressure to be a lesbian...

Well, I'm not entirely sure where it comes from, I wager that all the lesbian kiss scenes and so forth in popular culture have made it sort of a "cool" thing for girls to be bi or lesbian. I don't think there's really any corresponding social pressure for guys. Gay/bi guys are still the major underdog of society unfortunately. In fact, I overheard my girlfriend, usually a champion of liberalism, discussing with one of her friends how "gross" gay/bi guys making love were. This sort of illuminates my general point, lesbian/bi girls are seen as "cool" and "beautiful", while gay/bi guys are largely seen as "gross" by most girls and straight guys. So there is a large pressure put on girls these days to conform to these trends.

Rufus T. Firefly · December 18, 2002, 05:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Sikander
Usually children who take big stands on their sexuality at such an early age have some serious troubles. While I completely agree with the sentiments expressed here that people should be left alone and their choices in life respected, there may be more here than meets the eye. If not, then leave her alone.

You know, straight kids at that age can go absolutely apesh!t about there straightness -- dressing sexy, expreimenting with sex, talking endlessly about sex (and breasts in particular, if I remember the 7th grade correctly

), and no one ever says they're making a big issue of their sexuality. But let a kid say "I have sexual feelings, and they're same-sex," and suddenly their making an issue of it.

Asher · December 18, 2002, 05:26

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the pressure to be straight outweighs the pressure to be gay, whether male or female...

Even if it is the case for some people, labeling it as a "phenomenon" or even implying that it is a very common practice is made completely out of ignorance and misunderstanding.

It's usually just an easy way to dismiss it, like Boddington's has done, I haven't seen anyone who claimed to think liberally ever try to use the "peer pressure" excuse for homosexuality/bisexuality before, and I just find it disturbing is all.

People don't seem to comprehend how enormous the pressure NOT to be homosexual/bisexual is since they don't take much note of it when they ARE heterosexual, and suddenly it's much easier to take note of any slight "pressure" to be homosexual.

Imran Siddiqui · December 18, 2002, 05:28

[q]and no one ever says they're making a big issue of their sexuality[.q]

Obviously you've never heard the parents' side

.

I do remember a lot of consternation (especially among conservative folk) about kids dressing sexy and experimenting.

TheStinger · December 18, 2002, 05:34

i'm socially liberal as are the majority of my friends and we have never done anything like Bods said. There is far more pressure to be hetro even amongst none homophobes.

I have never felt the need to say I am Bi sexual due to pressure by a liberal clique.

There were bi-sexual people beofre that phrase was even thought of

monkspider · December 18, 2002, 05:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
Even if it is the case for some people, labeling it as a "phenomenon" or even implying that it is a very common practice is made completely out of ignorance and misunderstanding.

Well, it's all semantics of course, but the percentage of "cool kid" lesbians is probably quite a good bit higher than it has been in years past, so it probably creates a "phenomenon" of some degree.

Quote:

It's usually just an easy way to dismiss it, like Boddington's has done, I haven't seen anyone who claimed to think liberally ever try to use the "peer pressure" excuse for homosexuality/bisexuality before, and I just find it disturbing is all

I don't mean to seem dismissive or somehow illegitimatizing your sexuality in any way Asher. I apologize if it seems as if that has been the case. Really any evidence of peer pressure in sexuality simply pproves is that sexuality is a much more fluid thing than we have typically thought in the past.

Quote:

People don't seem to comprehend how enormous the pressure NOT to be homosexual/bisexual is since they don't take much note of it when they ARE heterosexual, and suddenly it's much easier to take note of any slight "pressure" to be homosexual.

You're right of course that heterosexuality is of course the default position for people sexually. But there is a certain pressure for some girls to experiment with a sexuality that they likely would have never experimented with otherwise. It isn't necessarily bad, and it isn't the root cause of all homosexual behaviour (or even most). But it is, nonetheless, a substantial factor in many cases.

Rufus T. Firefly · December 18, 2002, 05:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Obviously you've never heard the parents' side

.

I do remember a lot of consternation (especially among conservative folk) about kids dressing sexy and experimenting.

On the contrary. My daughter turns 13 in Feb.; I am the parents' side.

TheStinger · December 18, 2002, 05:41

Why do you have to be conservative to be concerned about your children dressing sexy and stuff

Solly · December 18, 2002, 05:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

You know, straight kids at that age can go absolutely apesh!t about there straightness -- dressing sexy, expreimenting with sex, talking endlessly about sex (and breasts in particular, if I remember the 7th grade correctly

), and no one ever says they're making a big issue of their sexuality. But let a kid say "I have sexual feelings, and they're same-sex," and suddenly their making an issue of it.

Yes, and they are messed up as well.

I'm not discriminating here.

Asher,

Quote:

There's social pressure for girls to be bi or lesbians in society?

Just when I thought I'd seen it all.
Last time I checked, the social pressure was to be straight. You know, what with common sense and all...

I wanna know where you got the idea that there's social pressure to be a lesbian...

In British society definitely. And I'm not making across-the-board generalisations, I'm saying that it's in certain leftist cliques that this behaviour continues, in order to prove I don't know what.

Rufus T. Firefly · December 18, 2002, 05:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's

Quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

You know, straight kids at that age can go absolutely apesh!t about there straightness -- dressing sexy, expreimenting with sex, talking endlessly about sex (and breasts in particular, if I remember the 7th grade correctly ), and no one ever says they're making a big issue of their sexuality. But let a kid say "I have sexual feelings, and they're same-sex," and suddenly their making an issue of it.

Yes, and they are messed up as well.

I'm not discriminating here.

Hmm. That means that every single boy, except shy little Jeffrey Sandburg, who attended Gemini Jr. High School in the years 1974-76 was messed up. Surely that's some kind of record. Although it does explain a lot...

Sikander · December 18, 2002, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

You know, straight kids at that age can go absolutely apesh!t about there straightness -- dressing sexy, expreimenting with sex, talking endlessly about sex (and breasts in particular, if I remember the 7th grade correctly

), and no one ever says they're making a big issue of their sexuality. But let a kid say "I have sexual feelings, and they're same-sex," and suddenly their making an issue of it.

Being sexually active at 13 whether you are straight gay or whatever is a warning sign IMO. I think that you will find a much higher incidence of sexual abuse in children who are sexually active at that age. Taking a deviant position on your sexuality (I'm talking about what is socially acceptable amongst your peer group here, not making a value judgement) is even more of an eye-opener, as there is considerable risk involved for the person taking that risk in the unforgiving realm of Jr. High. My guess is that this girl has probably been sexualized via abuse or contact with peers who have been abused. Probably the former. Lesbianism is a great way to avoid dealing with those you fear (men) while still allowing yourself the ability to love and be loved, and for sex. If this girl has been abused, she may have become sexually aggressive and made her peers uncomfortable. A fairly high percentage of sexual abuse occurs between peers or near peers, at least one of whom has been sexualized and "acts out" on others.

I just spent the weekend talking to a woman who seduced 5 other girls when she was in high school who fits this profile exactly, as do a number of her friends who I also know and talk to. They identify themselves as lesbians or bisexuals, all were pretty seriously sexually abused, and all were involved in pretty heavy sexual activity on their own at pre-pubescent or barely pubescent ages. Anyway, if this girl is like them, then she may constitute something of a danger to the other children who would be better off developing at their own speed in their own way. I have no way of knowing what the particulars are in this case, just wanted to say that perhaps these liberal Californian people have some reason for their actions other than simple homophobia, and perhaps their reasons are being kept secret in order to protect this child. They could just be pigs though as you allege.