Beyond Alpha Centauri::::::::Discussion Thread 8

[Sovereign]

Lonestar, a slight warning.

I'm somewhat swamped this week, but I'll have a post done by Tuesday or Wed. at the latet. If everything goes to hell, I guess Friday's more likely.

Just letting ya know.

[Mr. President]

I get so depressed reading the Civilization III and Civilization General / Future forums these days.

All the ideas coming out of the public seem to involve things that would make the games hideously complicated and unplayable.

And companies have to listen to the public when designing products. God help us all . . .

Speaking of Civilization III, it looks like soon I may have to install Alpha Centauri again. Combat is very frustrating. I've never seen a Spearman destroy a tank like everyone says happens constantly, but I frequently lose Cavalry to Legions and Knights. Can you remember the last time you saw an Missile Rover go down to defending Plasma Infantrymen? They're fairly even, but not as even as the comparable units in Civilization III.

For a game that claims to be about "the sweep of history", there is practically no progression in the strength of the weapons systems. I find bombers to be highly ineffective. Yesterday I had to strafe a Roman city like seven times before I got any noticeable effect!

Sorry about this. I really didn't intend to rant. But I also feel that I can't discuss this in the Civilization III zone without starting a flame war.

[Frankychan]

It's n0 pr0blem. I was a little taken aback at yer subject matter, but I t0tally understand.

I've had my missile r0vers taken 0ut by plasma garris0ns...but usually after they take a bunch 0ut and the garris0n has com jammers.

N0 prblem.

(my bad 4 the l337 spe4k. My A E I _ U buttin isn't werking right)

[Mr. President]

I didn't know keyboard malfunctions like that actually happened!

Hey, thanks for reading my stupid sentiments about Civilization III. I'm gonna get the Conquests expansion, and I might even start doing some drastic overhauls like I did to my alpha.txt. So all is not lost yet.

[GeneralTacticus]

I think one big reason why weaker units are much more effective in Civ III has to do with the number of hit points... SMACX units have 10 hit points at minimum, and it gets higher as the game goes on, whereas Civ III units mostly have between 3 and 5 hit points, so a single bad roll of the dice can have a much greater impact. Also, since higher tech units have an HP edge as well as a strength one, they're less likely to die.

So, to sum up: if you want Civ III combat to be more like SMACX, up the baseline hit points and give higher-tech units HP bonuses.

[Sovereign]

I'll be damned.

HistoryGuy posted!

That aside, I'm curious what kind of modifications you did to Alpha Centauri?

Actually, IMHO, Rise of Nations does a better job than Civ3 in history progession. In the Conquer The World, all civs have the same techs when every campaign or battle starts. Then as the world moves to the next age, all civ's have the new tech's, all equal.

Thus, the research in military tech, civic tech, science tech, or commerce tech is more realistic and emphasized than in Civ3. Also, this allows for much more specialized civ's. A builder? Research civics and commerce. A Warmonger? Research Military techs. A Warmonger / Trader? Research Military and Commerce, and so on.

Also you can customize single games, to have a tech cap in ancient, classical, middle, renassiance, industrial, modern, and information ages.

And this game doesn't have the "spearmen beat tank" syndrome like in Civ3. Most of the time when you get tanks, the enemy has musketmen or their own tanks. Also, even if you uber-advance and get tanks while the enemy has spearmen / warriors... the tanks NEVER die to these units, whatsoever. The tanks destroy these units in 1 - 2 hits at range, before these units even get close to melee the tank.

RoN is better than Civ, IMHO.

[History Guy]

Yes. It's frightening, isn't it? For the first time in ages, I have time for this!

[Mr. President]

Go History Guy!

Sovereign, most of my changes to Alpha Centauri were in the provided fields in the early part of the file. For example, I increased the movement rate on roads to 5; I added bonuses for attacking downhill and along roads; I decreased the non-combat unit defense penalty; I decreased the number of turns between councils. That was the first wave of modification. Then I added some user technologies and free facilities for the factions, and played with the movement values for the various chassis (though I eventually returned to the original values).

I've never played Rise of Nations but I have heard interesting things about it.

Also, thanks for the advice GeneralTacticus. I might try it out and see how it plays. Can you do those things with the Editor?

[Sovereign]

Yes you can use the editor, Prez.

Open the Editor, generate a random map, modify it if you want (land and water) then you can modify the HP values. I believe it's under the UNITS tab in the editor.

BTW, I might try editing Alpha.txt for interesting games later on. Thanks for the advice, Prez.

[GeneralTacticus]

Yeah... like Sovereign said, the unit-specific bonuses are under the 'Units' section, and the morale bonuses are under the 'combat experience' section.

[Mr. President]

Thanks guys.

I found the morale bonuses okay, but I looked at the Units tab and I didn't see anything to do with hit points.

[Sovereign]

Prez, could u post a SS of the "units" tab u tried to use? I could try and help.

[Sovereign]

BTW, I posted an interesting way to fix up combat in Civ.

Here goes... (I posted this in the Civ3 forums)




However, I have a better combat model for a True Civ game. Here goes….


Unit Base Hit Points:

Ancient Age Units: 2 Hit Points

Middle Age Units: 4 Hit Points

Industrial Age Units: 7 Hit Points

Modern Age Units: 10 Hit Points.

So, say, an Elite Modern Age unit would have 15 Hit Points total while a regular Ancient Age unit would have 5 Hit Points total.


Next area…. Firepower.

Ancient Age Unit Firepower: 1 = 1 hit point damage per attack.

Middle Age Unit Firepower: 1 = 1 hit point damage per attack.

Industrial Age Unit Firepower: 2 = 2 hit point damage per attack.

Modern Age Unit Firepower: 2 = 2 Hit points per attack.

The exceptions to this rule are:

3 Firepower units (3 hit point damage per attack) = Modern Armor, Radar artillery, AEGIS cruiser, cruise missiles, and Stealth bombers.

4 Firepower units (4 hit point damage per attack) = Battleship


Last area…. Odds calculation. Throw out the stupid Civ3 random generator.

Attacker hitting Defender: Attacker’s AP divided by Defender’s DP modified by Fortify, Terrain bonuses, and city structures / size (if inside city).

Defender’s chance to deflect incoming attack: Defender’s base DP divided by Attacker’s AP then the result divided by the Attacker’s Firepower.

Defender’s chance to counterattack: Defender’s AP divided by Attacker’s DP modified by terrain or Fortification / Barrier bonuses (if Attacker is attacking from a fortress)

Attacker’s chance to deflect defender’s attack: Attacker’s DP divided by Defender’s AP, then result divided by the Defender’s firepower.

Note: When a successful Deflection is achieved, no damage is dealt to the unit doing the deflecting.


An example:

Marine: Attack 10, Defense 5
Infantry: Attack 6, Defense 8

Marine is located on a grassland tile.
Infantry is fortified and located on a grassland tile.

Marine attacks. Has 10 / 12 odds of hitting the Infantry. Infantry has 50% bonus to base defense from fortifying.

Infantry tries to deflect the incoming attack. 4 / 10 odds. Attacker has 2 firepower, so 8/10 divided by 2 is 4/10, which will be the final result / odds.

The Infantry tries to counterattack. 6 / 5 odds that it’ll succeed.

The Marine tries to deflect. 5 / 6 initial odds of success. 5/6 divided by 2 (Defender’s firepower) = 5/12 then 5/12 is final odds of success.

Then the cycle repeats until either the Attacker or Defender dies.

Hopefully my models were clear enough for everyone to follow.


What do you think?

[Mr. President]

That seems good! Also reasonably simple - certainly for a computer. If you had to do it by hand it'd probably get tedious.

[GeneralTacticus]

Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise
Thanks guys.

I found the morale bonuses okay, but I looked at the Units tab and I didn't see anything to do with hit points.

If you're using the PtW editor, then the screen should look something like this:



With the red circle around the HP bonus setting.

[Mr. President]

I see. I'm using the vanilla Civ3's editor. It doesn't seem to have that box. Maybe when I get Conquests I'll be able to do it.

[History Guy]

Well...

I note that by some strange trick of fate, half of my very first post in the story thread appears to be missing.

Being the sort of fellow who doesn't like having to re-write posts, is it possible that one of you chaps has somehow gotten a copy of the original still available? I, fool that I am, never bothered to save it.

If not, that's OK. I'll just slave over a re-write.

[GeneralTacticus]

Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise
I see. I'm using the vanilla Civ3's editor. It doesn't seem to have that box. Maybe when I get Conquests I'll be able to do it.

As I recall, it was introduced in PtW; I presume it'll be in the Conquests editor too.

[Sovereign]

HistoryGuy, you mean the stuff before Joe Nova and that voice / man?


Prez, I'm surprised I haven't gotten more responses to my new combat model in the Civ3 general forums.

Boy, these people must have no imagination or ambition. It's Whine-Land.

[Sovereign]

Ack! I forgot....

Lonestar, I'll try and write a post in response to the Protectorate's offers this weekend. I have far more time to do it over the weekend than during the week (Been swamped with work this past week real bad).

[History Guy]

Sovereign,

I mean the very first post I ever made in the thread. You know, with the InEn ship blasting the Morganite one and getting blasted in response.

[Lonestar]

/me walks in from being underway for a week.

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by Sovereign
HistoryGuy, you mean the stuff before Joe Nova and that voice / man?


Prez, I'm surprised I haven't gotten more responses to my new combat model in the Civ3 general forums.

Boy, these people must have no imagination or ambition. It's Whine-Land.

Yeah, a lot of the people over there like to whine. Maybe it gives them a sense of purpose?

History Guy I'm afraid I don't have a copy of the post. I recall Kassiopeia said once that he saved the thread onto his desktop. I thought to myself "That's a good idea, I should try it" - but I never did because I couldn't figure it out. I hope you remember all the details you wanted.

[Sovereign]

I've managed to squeeze in some time for writing.

As of right now, my post is half to 3/4 done in Microsoft Word. I'll have it up in 15 to 30 minutes.

HistoryGuy, I'm afraid I don't have the whole BAC thread saved on my computer. But I might do so soon.

[Sovereign]

Posted, finally!

One nitpick about your post, Prez.

You forgot to include a city name where Gary and Derek are staying. There's three major cities in Spira... Zanarkand, Bevelle, and Luca.

Most of the Blitzball games take place in Luca.

I believe Luca would be where Gary and Derek would be staying. Could you add a sentence or two to show readers that Gary and Derek are in Luca, to ensure smooth continuity.

I might have Kalista meet up with Gary and Derek later on.


Lonestar, my post is done, and already replied to your Protectorate message.

[Mr. President]

Must have slipped my mind! I'll go and edit that in. Thanks!

[Lonestar]

Jesus Soveriegn, If you're going to make ST references at least make them obscure.

[Lonestar]

Also, how would that work on Mercury? The planet doesn't revolve, and is wayyyyyyy to close to the sun for advance lifeforms to survive...you'd be pretty much restricted to cynaobacteria.(you know...the stuff in hot springs)

[GeneralTacticus]

I wondered the same thing, myself... the whole undertaking would have been pretty useless, unless the UA plans to set up the mother of all solar shields, because even the atmosphere and the oceans would be boiled off into space.

[Sovereign]

Guess I'll change it from Mercury to Venus, then.