Retreat option is just one big bug

SMIFFGIG · December 24, 2002, 17:04

Well other than the fact the AI is unable to use the option granting the human play a stupidly big advantage. You can abuse the retreat system so easily

eg. I havent got a spy so i just attack a city and retreat immediatly and hey presto, i can see every single unit in the city and what they all are, plus my one unit is still alive as i retreated straight away. There is no morale system in the game, that would help a tiny bit but still no where near enough. I think if possible the retreat option should ONLY be available for defending players (im not sure if this can be done) and even better the current retreat system (that activision must have tottaly rushed into CtP2) total scrapped. Could it be done randomly using SLIC. This would be more realistic (random) as in battles there aint 100% chance of a successful retreat 100% of the time as currently is. Also it would make the stupid spying/retreat bug obsolete.

Thanks for reading and Merry Xmas

-James

Maquiladora · December 24, 2002, 17:13

Full agreement there smiff. The AI doesnt use it so its just another advantage for the human. Thats why if your playing any game you should play it in LAN or MP mode where retreat isnt available.

Im sure it can be taken out of the normal game too, no? Just get rid of the retreat button in the battleview.

HuangShang · December 24, 2002, 18:17

wiat i agree a little w/ SMIFFGIG, but i'd wnat the retreat still there

mapfi · December 24, 2002, 19:28

Even without the retreat option you only have to sacrifice one little weak unit to look what's inside a city. That's the way it's done in MP.

Martin Gühmann · December 24, 2002, 19:37

Unfortunatly there is no retreat event or function available in slic, therefore the only sollution would be to remove the retreat button from the battleview, that is no problem. Well in Single Player game you could play fair. So using the retreat button in SP is your decission, for example I don't use it.

-Martin

Locutus · December 24, 2002, 19:58

Well, if you don't like it, just don't use it (like me). Noone's forcing you to press that button if a battle is going badly...

SMIFFGIG · December 24, 2002, 21:31

Quote:

Well, if you don't like it, just don't use it (like me). Noone's forcing you to press that button if a battle is going badly...

Yea fair enough but i think it should be maybe taken out in some mods cause thats like saying dont build sea cities if you dont like the sea city bug

-James

HuangShang · December 26, 2002, 23:19

whats the sea city bug yo?

Martin Gühmann · December 27, 2002, 11:45

The sea city sprite bug is the bug that causes sea cities to use the sprites of land cities. A very nasty bug if you ever build sea cities in CTP1.

And by the way for all of you who haven't voted in the Top Games Series Poll for CTP1/2, yet. You can still do until the end of this year. And don't forget to vote in the Poll about single Gmaes not Series, CTP still needs you.

-Martin

Engineer_J · December 27, 2002, 16:07

Don't you mean Sea Cites in CTP 2? I thought they looked right in CTP. Did this bug ever get fixed in any of the mods?

Pedrunn · December 27, 2002, 16:54

I dont remember ever going to until the end of the game to check this bug.
You guy may even be surprised that i have heard about this sea city bug in my almost 2 years of modding but never knew what was it until now. Thanks to explanation

This is a wild shot but i do know that it is hard coded the connection between sea city graphics and the age. Since the designers of the mods must have had once an idea to have a different type of graphic for cities in mountains.
Check this part of the agecitystyle:

Code:

AGE_FIVE_STYLE_ONE {
	Sprites { Type 0 MinSize 0  MaxSize 8  Sprite 127 }
	Sprites { Type 0 MinSize 9  MaxSize 20 Sprite 128 }
	Sprites { Type 0 MinSize 21 MaxSize 36 Sprite 129 }
	Sprites { Type 0 MinSize 37 MaxSize 99 Sprite 130 }

	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 0  MaxSize 8  Sprite 89 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 9  MaxSize 14 Sprite 90 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 15 MaxSize 20 Sprite 91 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 21 MaxSize 29 Sprite 92 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 30 MaxSize 36 Sprite 93 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 37 MaxSize 44 Sprite 94 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 45 MaxSize 56 Sprite 95 }
	Sprites { Type 1 MinSize 57 MaxSize 99 Sprite 96 }
}

As you can see there are two "types" of cities: type 0 and type 1.
The type 0 cities are the regular land terrain cities we settle at first. But the mess start when Type 1 comes. The type 1 city is hard coded to until the fourth age have the graphics given to cities settled in moutains. I discover that when i once said: "Why to have the sea city graphics only after the fourth age if i could have them since at the begining. This may be useful but i will do it in case i make some change in the future." And i did it. I set all ages of all city styles to have sea city graphics (Type 1 cities). Try to imagined my surprising face when i saw that the cities i settled in mountains had sea city graphics. I just thought. "Cool! I know where the designers were aiming at. Have different graphics for mountains would be awesome". Since we had no good graphics in are scarce community for mountains this idea of mine was just forgoten (Try to imagine my bored face when i had to remove all sea city graphics of all ages of all city styles

). Now when i heard about what this bug is about a lamp lighted on my head

Is anything i tell you here is making any connection with the Sea City Bug?

Tamerlin · December 27, 2002, 22:00

I still can't figure what the sea city bug is as I have never seen it.

A far as I am concerned I have never used the retreat button, but I think this option should only be available for the defender. I have played a lot of wargames and retreat is generally not allowed when you are attacking.

Martin Gühmann · December 28, 2002, 09:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Engineer_J
Don't you mean Sea Cites in CTP 2? I thought they looked right in CTP. Did this bug ever get fixed in any of the mods?

Yes I mean CTP2 otherwise you couldn't consider it as very nasty bug if you ever saw the correct style in CTP1.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I still can't figure what the sea city bug is as I have never seen it.

To figure this out you could start a new game using original game from ModSwapper and put some cities on the sea and you should see how the sea cities should look. Then give youself the enabling advance for Sea Cities and Undersea Tunnels and look what happens, if the style does not change just add a pop to the city and you should see that the city looks like a land city, don't use Cradle, ApolytonPack or CityMod2 as your basic mod I added for every style seperate sea city graphics definations for the early ages unfortunatly they are equal to the land definitions.

-Martin

Maquiladora · December 28, 2002, 09:31

Isnt the sea city bug caused by maglevs? It gives a sea city a maglev tile imp under the city so it thinks its a land city? Like it gives land cities roads underneath at the start of the game. They just made a mistake and gave sea cities maglevs instead of undersea tunnels.

Or am i thinking of something else...

Martin Gühmann · December 28, 2002, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Isnt the sea city bug caused by maglevs? It gives a sea city a maglev tile imp under the city so it thinks its a land city? Like it gives land cities roads underneath at the start of the game. They just made a mistake and gave sea cities maglevs instead of undersea tunnels.

Or am i thinking of something else...

No the undersea tunnels are the problem. Every tile that has an undersea tunnel has also the abilty that land units can move on it so for the game these tiles are land tiles first. You can see it on the mini map if you switch off the display of terrain types.

-Martin

Maquiladora · December 28, 2002, 10:25

Ah okay i thought it was something like that. So sea cities get undersea tunnels underneath right? So what happens if you take out undersea tunnels from the game altogether? Unless its hardcoded in sea cities, i would guess this has been tried...

Martin Gühmann · December 28, 2002, 13:07

You can remove undersea tunnels then you have the correct sprite but then something is missing, you cannot use tunnels to connect your udersea cities and I am not shure if you can then build land units in sea cities or put some of them into the sea city.

-Martin

Pedrunn · December 28, 2002, 18:13

Martin, I ran a quick test with unmodded CTP2 and i do believe the problem is still related to the ages.

I created a sea engineer through the city editor settled a sea city. Then i granted my city with nano assembly and ultrapressured machinery and the city was still ok. The bug happened when i granted myself with others advances reaching the Diamond age.

Martin Gühmann · December 28, 2002, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Martin, I ran a quick test with unmodded CTP2 and i do believe the problem is still related to the ages.

I created a sea engineer through the city editor settled a sea city. Then i granted my city with nano assembly and ultrapressured machinery and the city was still ok. The bug happened when i granted myself with others advances reaching the Diamond age.

It is not age related you forgot doing one thing: You have add a pop to the city if you gave yourself nano assembly.

So do another experiment place a sea city on the terrain while you are in genetic age but still without nano assembly the city has the right style add a pop and the city will keep its style now use the cheat editor to place a undersea tunnel on the city tile now add a pop again and you will see the difference.

-Martin

Tamerlin · December 31, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann To figure this out you could start a new game using original game from ModSwapper and put some cities on the sea and you should see how the sea cities should look. Then give youself the enabling advance for Sea Cities and Undersea Tunnels and look what happens, if the style does not change just add a pop to the city and you should see that the city looks like a land city, don't use Cradle, ApolytonPack or CityMod2 as your basic mod I added for every style seperate sea city graphics definations for the early ages unfortunatly they are equal to the land definitions.

Thanks for your reply Martin and sorry for the delay of mine. I suppose I have to use the cheat menue to achieve the manipulations you are speaking of, I have never tinkered with it but it must be fun to test things using this cheat menue. As I will certainly have a strong headache tomorrow (

) it will certainly be more funny to discover the "sea city" bug rather than trying to devise a strategy for an ongoing CtP2 game...

Zaphod Beeblebrox · January 4, 2003, 10:12

well, actually i wish both attacker and defender could retreat (though with extra losses/damages to your units of course, its never good to show your backside to the enemy, even if running very fast) and of course the ai should be able to use it.
retreat can be very usefull if you have 2 big stacks and the opponent has one big or even bigger stack on a tile with high defense bonus and/or more sophisticated units. and i don't think it is an unrealistic way to weaken an enemy with one army and then bring in fresh ones to take them out. but of course it should be avaiable for everyone and the ai should know how to use that.

Tamerlin · January 4, 2003, 11:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox
well, actually i wish both attacker and defender could retreat (though with extra losses/damages to your units of course, its never good to show your backside to the enemy, even if running very fast) and of course the ai should be able to use it.
retreat can be very usefull if you have 2 big stacks and the opponent has one big or even bigger stack on a tile with high defense bonus and/or more sophisticated units. and i don't think it is an unrealistic way to weaken an enemy with one army and then bring in fresh ones to take them out. but of course it should be avaiable for everyone and the ai should know how to use that.

In my own opinion retreat is a way to reduce the casualties when you know you are losing a battle. In reality, probing and harassing the ennemy forces is accomplished by special light units like scouts.

In my own opinion once again, retreat should be a way to reduce the number of units lost in a battle when you are caught by surprise by the ennemy, when you face a greater number of unit than what you were expecting, when you face a better organized opponent (a better mix of offensive, flanking and ranged units) or a technologically superior army... In CtP2, and in many other Civ like game, there are few means to undermine an ennemy force before you launch your assault. In CtP2 it is rather hard to retreat in the middle of the fight as combat is resolved in a few seconds, only spies allow you to study your ennemies before attacking.

Pedrunn · January 9, 2003, 11:49

I have tested the sea city bug. And seem like the enable advance for the sea engineer has nothing to do with the problem. The whole problem is with the enabling advance for the Undersea Tunnels (not just the TI but any TI with the combination of the "MoveCost" flag and a "terrain" flag with a sea terrain.

Therefore i have made a alfa testing of a fix for it. And it worked.

And i do believe i can fix this infamous sea city bug using fake terrains!!!

I will do some more futher testing I hope to have this fix by tomorrow. Or even today if the DG chat doesnt take long

Maquiladora · January 9, 2003, 11:55

I thought it was possible to fix all along

okay well i hoped...

Myrddin · January 10, 2003, 18:17

The most useful (and realistic) use of retreat is in city assults

A bombardment stack can be used to reduce the strength of defenders while careful use of attack and retreat will kill off defending units while only slightly weakening your assult force - so on say the 3rd or fourth assult you can sack the city

SMIFFGIG · January 10, 2003, 20:58

Fair enough, i can see what your saying that could be a very cool aspect of the game

But the fact that the AI is unable to in anyway use retrate let alone use it tactically and for scout missions etc makes it and overwhelming advantage to the Human

James

Martin the Dane · February 18, 2003, 13:19

Pedrunn,

How did it go with your fix for the sea city bug?

I just noticed a pequliar bug with city sprites. When I entered the modern age I suddenly had a mirage of the old citysprite hanging in midair over my now modern cities.

Take a look at this image to se what I mean.

Martin Gühmann · February 19, 2003, 08:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin the Dane
How did it go with your fix for the sea city bug?

The sea city sprite bug I don't think Pedrunn did any progress but of course he has to answer the question. Unfortunatly I don't think it is possible to fix it without using fake terrain, unfortunatly fake terrain is a lot of work and the solution might not be perfect. I think the best solution would be to get the source code or hack the ctp2.exe to fix everything properly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin the Dane
I just noticed a pequliar bug with city sprites. When I entered the modern age I suddenly had a mirage of the old citysprite hanging in midair over my now modern cities.

For me the city looks fine, actual the castle looks like standing on the ground as it should be and as I made it.

I thought it would be more interesting for the player to have the style theme also present in higher ages.

-Martin

Pedrunn · February 23, 2003, 17:58

Dont mind this post

Pedrunn · February 24, 2003, 11:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin the Dane
How did it go with your fix for the sea city bug?

The democracy game made my head absent from modding. But i have mangead a fix already. Not perfect but it does fixes.

Check out here