Not the best way to spend Christmas Eve...

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 02:30

Well, this is one way to deal with an unruly child. Why bother with a lump of coal in their stocking when you can put a lead bullet through their heart, killing them?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast....ap/index.html

I hope they both get a life sentence, no parole.

(I don't support the Death penalty though they both rightfully deserve it...)

And on Christmas Eve no less...

Asher · December 25, 2002, 02:35

You hope the state troopers are given life sentences without parole?

David Floyd · December 25, 2002, 02:36

If you steal a car, I'm not gonna feel too sorry for you if something bad happens along the way.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 02:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
You hope the state troopers are given life sentences without parole?

12 years old. The child was 12 years old. I honestly don't care what excuse or explaination the troopers give: they murdered a child.

Asher · December 25, 2002, 02:39

I think it's a tad bit early to be condemning everybody.

If a 12 year old pointed a gun at me I'd shoot him too, especially while on the adrenalin and rage of the aftermath of a high-speed chase.

Don't be so quick to judge...

If a 12 year old pointed a gun and you and started shooting, would you refrain from returning fire on the account of him being 12 years old?

The story is EXTREMELY short on detail, and only mentions the kid died when troopers shot him after a high speed chase.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 02:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
I think it's a tad bit early to be condemning everybody.

If a 12 year old pointed a gun at me I'd shoot him too, especially while on the adrenalin and rage of the aftermath of a high-speed chase.

Don't be so quick to judge...

Which is why there is a lot of talk about BANNING police car chases. Either the criminal being pursued or the cops chasing them hurt, even kill inocent bystanders. What's more, the cops can often times get over-zealous, clouding their judgment and limiting their objectivity. This is just more fuel for the fire.

Asher · December 25, 2002, 02:44

If we completely ban police chases, isn't this an open invitation that if you want to get away with a crime, just hop in a car and drive?

There's no magical answer to the problem, people are kidding themselves if they think banning police chases is going to fix everything.

I think the real problem here is the 12 year old twerp who stole the ****ing car and ran from the cops. Not the cops who were doing their jobs.

Anyway, wait more more info...

Nubclear · December 25, 2002, 02:52

Drive away to Canada!

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 02:53

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cops get special training on how to use and fire guns. Aren't they given training on how to AIM at things other than the head and torso regions? You don't die from being shot in the arm or leg, provided you see a doctor sometime within a few days of being shot...

They probably could have found a better solution. But like I said, I don't care what their excuse is: they murdered a child. If it were an adult, there's only a little leeway as an adult (unless mentally deficient) knows the difference between right and wrong and knows that actions have consequences. A child is still learning those parts of life. Killing him doesn't teach him, it only kills him. Adult can weigh his or her decisions against their possible consequences, but a child has far less resources and experiances upon which to draw reasonable conclusions, especially in a fight-or-flight scenario.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Drive away to Canada!

Or Mexico...

Asher · December 25, 2002, 02:57

Quote:

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cops get special training on how to use and fire guns. Aren't they given training on how to AIM at things other than the head and torso regions? You don't die from being shot in the arm or leg, provided you see a doctor sometime within a few days of being shot...

I'm not sure if you've ever fired a gun.

A 12 year old isn't exactly a big target, first of all.
Not to mention trying to hit his arms or legs if he's FLEEING from police.

I understand why you're upset, a 12 year old has died, but we don't know a damn thing about the exact circumstances of the incident so why don't we lay off...

Quote:

They probably could have found a better solution.

I'm 99% sure they didn't intend to kill him...

Quote:

But like I said, I don't care what their excuse is: they murdered a child.

I'd shoot the bastard too if he started shooting at me. I don't care how old he is.

Dis · December 25, 2002, 02:58

I have seen some 12 year olds that are kind of big. And dressed in winter clothing how are the troopers going to know?

I don't really agree with using deadly force on a non-violent suspect. But I guess the officers felt the kid needlessly endangered others by leading them on a high speed chase, so they felt otherwise.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 03:04

I have, many times, when I was younger. Stepdad took me shooting when I was 11; he wanted to show me proper gun safety and later how to clean and care for guns. We have a shotgun, two hand guns, and a revolver in the safe downstairs. I've never been shown the combination and I've long since forgotten much of what I was taught, other than using the safety button and never pointing at people (which goes without saying...)

As far as I'm concerned, you use a slug-thrower, your intention is to kill, that's the only thing they're designed for. They make all manner of non-lethal weapons that debilitate would-be assailants. B*llsh*t the police can't find better ways. Personal favorite are any of the taser-like weapons. Sorry, but that Simpsons episode where they kept shocking each other will always be my favorite...*bzzz*...

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:06

This is a mob mentality. You do not act until you get the facts.

I must take exception to this thread. What is this a blood thirsty mob.

It's reasons like these people had public hangings. People like you are bloodthirsty calling for these troopers deaths.

How about we get some facts before we go for their heads.

Asher · December 25, 2002, 03:06

So you're saying these cops had a taser-gun but didn't use it?

Again, we don't know anything.

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:08

And yes I do agree the use of deadly force is not warranted in this case. But sometimes adrenaline clouds judgement. The cops should be fired for lack of judgement.

I do know the police consider high speed chases an endangerment to other people. But it wouldn't endanger anyone if they didn't chase them. I've heard in my city they are going to use choppers for high speed chases and drop car units back. This is the best solution (although expensive).

Thus a kid stealing a car shouldn't warrant deadly force. They should get off their lazy asses and do a foot chase. This is what happens when you lessen physical requirements for police officers. They'd rather should the suspect than chase him/her and tackle him/her.

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:09

And Tasers still have trouble because the police still get sued.

Amazingly in our ****ed up justice system the police have less chance of being sued using firearms than non-lethal weapons.

Asher · December 25, 2002, 03:12

Quote:

Thus a kid stealing a car shouldn't warrant deadly force. They should get off their lazy asses and do a foot chase. This is what happens when you lesses physical requirements for police officers. They'd rather should the suspect than chase him and tackle him/her.

I don't recall reading that the officers were too lazy to give chase...just that the kid died while fleeing, which is VERY vague and we shouldn't shriek for the officers' heads until we know what happened.

Sprayber · December 25, 2002, 03:12

You know Dissident, sometimes it's hard to tell exacly what side of an argument you come down on

Asher: Keep up the good work of enlightening those that seek to return the rule of the mob and overreaction.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 03:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
So you're saying these cops had a taser-gun but didn't use it?

Again, we don't know anything.

Actually no I didn't. Don't be putting words in my mouth, Asher.

They've made non-lethal weapons for God-knows how long, so the police (meaning any department, any where) have had plenty of opportunity to find alternative methods. I'm sorry, but there's never any good excuse or explanation for killing someone: murder is murder, be it by a criminal, a cop, a soldier, or the state. Our weapons have evolved beyond sticks and stones, we have ways of capturing without killing, so why isn't there any noticable or notable effort to do so?

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:13

Yes we don't know the details of this case.

This is why I say we shouldn't be calling for their deaths like some posters are doing. That is no better than a bloodthirsty mob.

Based on what I do know I do think the officers should be suspended (with no pay) and possibly fired. But that could change if more facts come out.

Nubclear · December 25, 2002, 03:14

I must agree with Asher on this.

If you heard that there was this guy in Utah who shot a woman twice and then stabbed her to death, the normal reactionw ould be "Oh my god! How evil!". However what if they left out the part where the woman tried to kill the man through means of slow torture? Then it becomes a self defense issue....

We don't know the whole story so judging right now doesnt seem very fair at all.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 03:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
This is a mob mentality. You do not act until you get the facts.

I must take exception to this thread. What is this a blood thirsty mob.

It's reasons like these people had public hangings. People like you are bloodthirsty calling for these troopers deaths.

How about we get some facts before we go for their heads.

And I said that I DO NOT SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY in the very first post. Thanks for the moment of clarity...

Asher · December 25, 2002, 03:15

Quote:

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Actually no I didn't. Don't be putting words in my mouth, Asher.

I wasn't really sure what you were saying, hence the question mark...

I'm just struggling to see why you thought it was relevant to talk about how police can use taser-guns in a thread that's specific about the cops killing a kid on christmas eve...

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:15

and yes I am taking both sides of the argument.

I do think the force was excessive, but I'm not calling for their heads. They made a mistake. It's a tough job, and when they make mistakes peopel get killed. It's tragic.

I'm amazed the article didn't point out the race of the suspect and officers. They would have if the conditions were right.

Nubclear · December 25, 2002, 03:17

"Black man shoots woman twice, then stabs her violently several times killing her"

That would've sparked a small storm

Just as this is!

Dis · December 25, 2002, 03:17

And you mentioned you don't support the death penalty yet you said they deserved it. Hence my comments about the bloodthirsty mob.

Because despite this lack of judgement by the officers, I do not think they deserve the death penalty. I don't think they even deserve prison time.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 03:39

Yes, I said they deserve it. While I believe life for a life is naturally fair (meaning natural for animals outside of sentient civilization), it is morally wrong and is contrary to civilized society. If we take the life of another, it makes us no better than the animals we claim to be better than (evolution vs. creation debate aside). Again, we have ways of dealing with dangerous situations that might otherwise end in needless death. Further, death isn't a good way of teaching someone they did wrong. Dead men don't learn...they're just dead.

We don't know the details of this case yet, I'll grant you all that, but I still don't care. I'm not usually this wrapped in something (most of my days are now spent in an apathetic stuppor, largely being drained by events foreign, domestic, and personal over recent years), but this really got to me. This isn't the note I wanted to end MY Christmas Eve on, and I'm certain neither the cops, the kid, nor his parents wanted it either.

DRoseDARs · December 25, 2002, 03:41

Great, yet another reason to say, "Bah, humbug..."

G'Night all, I'm going to bed. Screw this story, I'm sure there be plenty more bad news to blacken my mood soon enough...

Sprayber · December 25, 2002, 03:44

Quote:

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
We don't know the details of this case yet, I'll grant you all that, but I still don't care. I'm not usually this wrapped in something (most of my days are now spent in an apathetic stuppor, largely being drained by events foreign, domestic, and personal over recent years), but this really got to me. This isn't the note I wanted to end MY Christmas Eve on, and I'm certain neither the cops, the kid, nor his parents wanted it either.

So this is more about how you feel about it than what the facts may be. Write an op ed about it and get it out of your system.