Thread Tools
Old December 25, 2002, 03:44   #31
Asher
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
President of the OT
 
Asher's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
Quote:
Further, death isn't a good way of teaching someone they did wrong. Dead men don't learn...they're just dead.
It's not the cop's duty to punish, and I'm pretty sure they didn't intend to.

If they judged the kid's actions to be a great threat to the public or to themselves, they have every right to open fire on him IMO, as long as they don't shoot to kill (although it's a very likely possibility).

All of this talk about other ways to deal with dangerous situations like taserguns and everything leaves me confused and wondering what that has to do with this case. I don't think every cop has access to that kind of stuff, and my instincts tell me the cops pulled the trigger when the kid did something threatening such as pointing a gun at the cops.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
Asher is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 03:50   #32
Sprayber
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
Emperor
 
Sprayber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: In Exile
Posts: 4,140
One thing that you might consider is that for these police officers, this incident will never be over. I'm sure they are asking themselves if they could have done something else that would have prevented this. You talk about how this makes you feel, put yourself in the position of a protector who has made the decision to take a life that now will be reviewed many times by others. It's an imperfect system for an imperfect world.
__________________
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
Sprayber is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 04:12   #33
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
Asher, cops do not have taser guns and such. I'm sure ours don't. I think it is too expensive to have items like that. They have their club, pepper spray, flashlight, and their firarms (pistol and possibley a shotgun in the car)

Even pepper spary can get the cops sued.

So often the cops do rely on their guns as the primary means of enforcement.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 04:30   #34
Sprayber
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
Emperor
 
Sprayber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: In Exile
Posts: 4,140
Quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
Asher, cops do not have taser guns and such. I'm sure ours don't. I think it is too expensive to have items like that. They have their club, pepper spray, flashlight, and their firarms (pistol and possibley a shotgun in the car)

Even pepper spary can get the cops sued.

So often the cops do rely on their guns as the primary means of enforcement.
Some cops do carry stuff like tasers but they aren't carried by everyone. You should look inside a cop car sometime. After asking of course.
__________________
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
Sprayber is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 04:33   #35
CyberGnu
King
 
CyberGnu's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of the Virtual Serengeti
Posts: 1,826
Doesn't taser guns have an effective range of less than 4 meters?

I think that if the police has to chase you down, and after being forced to stop you continue to flee on foot the police has a good reason to believe that you have something on your conscience...

Quite frankly, why would you flee the police in the first place if you are innocent of a crime?
__________________
Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine
CyberGnu is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 07:53   #36
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cops get special training on how to use and fire guns. Aren't they given training on how to AIM at things other than the head and torso regions? You don't die from being shot in the arm or leg, provided you see a doctor sometime within a few days of being shot...
A lot of police agencies use jacketed hollow point rounds, which expand on impact and cause a hell of a lot of damage, so even arm or leg wounds (especially thigh) can be fatal. The reason for usiing these rounds (along with light powder loads) is to avoid stray rounds and penetrators from going downrange and killing someone else.

And no, you don't aim at arms and legs, they move to fast and are very difficult to hit except at such close ranges that the target either (a) can be run down and dealt with other than by shooting, or (b) is a lethal threat if armed.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 07:56   #37
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Great, yet another reason to say, "Bah, humbug..."

G'Night all, I'm going to bed. Screw this story, I'm sure there be plenty more bad news to blacken my mood soon enough...
Most of the world sucks most of the time. You can't dwell on that part.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 08:03   #38
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
The police in this country are trained to shoot to kill. The basic method is to empty their guns into the target, aiming for the center of mass. There is no "winging" someone allowed AFAIK. When they start shooting only the lucky will survive.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 09:00   #39
Skanky Burns
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 Spartans
 
Skanky Burns's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Skanky Father
Posts: 16,530
A 12-year-old who stole a car was killed while fleeing?

:shrug: The little bastard deserved it.
__________________
I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).
Skanky Burns is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 12:57   #40
MRT144
inmate
DiploGames
King
 
MRT144's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 2,954
i agree with skanky...i think that if youre 12 years old and stealing cars youre just costing the state money in the future through being imprisoned several times.
__________________
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
MRT144 is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 13:21   #41
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 16:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
good Job, Police

hehe.

look, the kid was an *******. I don't say that he deserved it, but I don't think that police used excessive force either, I don't even think they made a mistake. The story is very thin on details, but I can presume that they called him to stop, or they'd shoot. He didn't stop. The kid must have been not clean as silk, too, if he actually started a chase with a police car.

Your post on how police car chases should be outlawed is damn silly. If a robbery occurs, and the robbers get away by car, how the **** should police catch them? on bicycles? Or do you say that we don't have to catch them, because they might get hurt.
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 13:23   #42
Zylka
Civilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesApolytoners Hall of Fame
King
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Hidden within an infantile Ikea fortress
Posts: 1,054
I'd say the entire story rests on whether or not he held a weapon. If he held a weapon towards the police at any time, before or after running, he should have been shot. If he had shot at someone prior to the chase, he should have been shot. These are the likely outcomes.

If on the contrary, if this was just some little f*ck stealing Grandma's car for a joyride - I'd rather see him caught on foot, beat up, and cuffed. I know many cops are fat, but surely even they could keep up to a 12 year old.

Another thought comes to mind, what if he's wanted on serious crimes previously, well before the chase. Like a few attempted murders. Sure it's innocent until proven guilty, but at what point do they assess the chances with deadly force?

Last edited by Zylka; December 25, 2002 at 13:30.
Zylka is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 14:43   #43
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
Supposedly lots of kids stole cars just for fun. Not me - I was a geek . So I don't think death is a very good punishment. But many kids go for joyrides.

the thing is I doubt he did have a gun. The police should not be shooting non-violent suspects just because they run. Even if they shout Stop!, the kid may not speak English. And most kids are taught to fear the police and stay away from them.

The thing is it is winter, and he surely had on a jacket. He may have reached inside his jacket and this cause the cops to shoot him. But we need more details.

the media only reports it because they are 12 years old. But the cops can't know that immediately. He probably looked like a teenager, and they can be dangerous- even moreso than adults. And with the jacket and probably some kind of ski mask, they may not have known his age.

but I still think it is excessive force. The only way I can see letting the cops off is if the kid reached inside his jacket (I'm certain the kid had no real weapon).
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 16:05   #44
aahz_capone
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerNationStatesApolyton UniversityDiplomacy
Prince
 
aahz_capone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Hague
Posts: 485
dissident
aahz_capone is offline  
Old December 25, 2002, 16:27   #45
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 16:13
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
In short, we don't have enough details. Lots ( ) of kids go on joyrides, but not as many get into a highspeed chase, anyway, so I think we can agree that he was a complete *******.
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:13.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team