Apolytonians for Slave Emancipation(A.S.E.)

[Nimitz]

This is a movment of like minded apolytonian to discuss and push for slave emancipation. We welcome any new members.

Current membership:
Nimitz
Kloreep
Aro
Meshelic
Spiffor
Aidun
jdjdjd
sabrewolf
pikesfan

Right now we need to discuss the how, when, and why of slave emancipation.

[Aro]

Include me, please.

[Meshelic]

Add Meshelic to the list, please.

[Shiber]

You youngsters should be ashamed of yourselves!
Why, in my days when we were all living on the trees politicians were honest, bananas only cost 0.05L and human rights activists were sent to work at the salt mines.

[Meshelic]

I've already worked the salt mines! All that time underground, digging, barely scraping a living together, until I enlisted with the Shadows. Indeed, it was my memories of working the mines that inspired me to create the Labor Party.

[Spiffor]

Count me in !
In the old days, slaves were sure a necessity, but we Apolytonians never enjoyed havong to work with underproductive slaves
As centuries passed, foreign slaves never integrated our culture, and continued to speak their languages, and to perform their rites, in communities where there wasn't any hope of a brighter future for the slaves or for their children. It is now time to finish these centuries (millenia ?) of harsh injustice !
Now, we are at last on the way to enlightement, and this very discussion proves it. The old wandering wiseman, Eewolf, would have been proud of us

While I have moral reasons to oppose slavery, I would like to express the economic reasons why we should emancipate all slaves :
- Slaves work twice as slow as PW workers, while they are as efficient as domestic citizens when they work in the city.
- Slaves do not cost any upkeep, but it is a moot point : when they work in the city, they bring much more than one gold, and thus are more cost-efficient than what they'd be as slaves.
- Many slaves are French or Americans, and do not show any more eagerness to revolt than our nationals, now that their mother civilization has been integrated.

Down with slavery ! Up with emancipation !

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Spiffor
- Slaves work twice as slow as PW workers, while they are as efficient as domestic citizens when they work in the city.
- Slaves do not cost any upkeep, but it is a moot point : when they work in the city, they bring much more than one gold, and thus are more cost-efficient than what they'd be as slaves.

Then why not allow our domestic field workers to return to the cities and to the welcoming hands of their families, get themselves educated and specialize, and keep the slaves as field workers that will clean up pollution and do other random jobs.
Economically, this would be a better idea IMHO.

[Aidun]

Ah, this is where I dreamed of: Labour an liberals UNITED in ONE movement. Thanks Nimitz. Please make me a member.


EQUALITY BEFORE LAW ABOVE ALL!

Aidun

[Eli]

Hehe.

[Kloreep]

Yes! Down with slavery!

I'm not so sure eewolf would be proud of us. Our nation has developed an incrediply bloodthirsty and unethical history, frankly. But the past doesn't matter; let's worry about Apolytonia's future.

[Aidun]

I've posted a thread to make a bill for emancipation Please write down some comments...
The thread is here

Thanks,

Aidun

[GhengisFarb™]

Free them from their lives. Disband them in the jungle!

[GodKing]

Best just to take over the world before we do something as silly as emancipation......

[jdjdjd]

Count me in.

[Kuciwalker]

You shall all burn under the harsh rule of the evil lord Ming! So the Prophet Aggie has fortold!

[Nolan]

You open your arms to them and they will stab you. The moment you free a slave he will betray you, duty and honor are not understood by these foriegn cultures, don't make the mistake of giving them freedom

[sabrewolf]

better add them to a city not in danger of flipping than disbanding 'em. integration rulez

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Shiber


Then why not allow our domestic field workers to return to the cities and to the welcoming hands of their families, get themselves educated and specialize, and keep the slaves as field workers that will clean up pollution and do other random jobs.
Economically, this would be a better idea IMHO.

We have 47 cities eagerly waiting to get to pop 20. Had we pop 12 in all our cities already, it'd already mean we can integrate 347 more people in our cities before reaching max pop. Most of our 158 workers (national + slaves) will be integrated anyways when improvements will be completed (we need approx 4 turns to do this in our lands which are not taken from the Germans).

Since we cannot fill entirely the gap between our current pop and the max popof our cities, we have to choose the best workers to improve German lands. National workers are the ones, while slaves should participate to the Greatness of Apolytonia at their full potential : by being integrated !

Economically, freeing slaves before nationals is a better idea IMHO (no need for an IMHO when it's only logical)

[pikesfan]

Add me to the voices calling for justice.

[Kuciwalker]

ECONOMICALLY?!

Slaves are infinitely (that's literally true!) more economical than natives. I'll prove it to you.

Let's set A = number of slaves equal to 1 native worker, B = cost per slave, C = number of native workers equal to 1 native worker, and D = cost per native worker.

I'll prove that A*B < C*D.

A*B = 2*0 = 0
C*D = 1*1 = 1
0 < 1
A*B < C*D

Yes, I know it's obvious, but I'm tired of people claiming that natives are more economical.

[sabrewolf]

skywalker: you're forgetting the time needed for micromanagement. economically speaking, time is scarce and must also be counted

but for C3DG that doesn't really matter too much

[Aidun]

Originally posted by skywalker
ECONOMICALLY?!

Slaves are infinitely (that's literally true!) more economical than natives. I'll prove it to you.

Let's set A = number of slaves equal to 1 native worker, B = cost per slave, C = number of native workers equal to 1 native worker, and D = cost per native worker.

I'll prove that A*B < C*D.

A*B = 2*0 = 0
C*D = 1*1 = 1
0 < 1
A*B < C*D

Yes, I know it's obvious, but I'm tired of people claiming that natives are more economical.

Skywalker, you're not counting the economical benefits an integrated native worker has. Your sum is too easy I think. The integrated worker can produce more tax and eventually more food or shields. This causes that: our income grows and perhaps our birthrate increases or our production increases. Increased birthrate means a faster growth of our income out of taxes which allows us to support a stronger militairy or which can give us the possibility to faster research in the future. Through increased production we can faster buid. our glorious armies become even more powerful because of the more units they get, because shorter building time means more units in the same time. Wonders can be build faster etc. Integrating units is on the long term far better than keeping them up as slaves. The list advantages is unending!
I agree with you that on the short term it is better to keep the slaves.

Aidun

[Kuciwalker]

Aidun - when a slave is integrated, it behaves exactly like when a native worker is integrated (except that integrated slaves can resist or increase the chance of culture flips). So, a slave is more economical than a native worker, and an integrated slave is as economical as an integrated native worker, and therefore the maximum economy is reached when you integrate the native workers instead of the slaves!

Regarding micromanagement, the micromanagement of a slave is equal to that of a native worker, and so can be ignored.

[sabrewolf]

no, a normal worker works double as fast as a captured worker. so instead of moving 6 units to the hills, let them all mine and move them away again, you'll have to use 12 captured ones...

[Kuciwalker]

True.

Still, micromanagement is an outside factor, so it shouldn't be considered.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by skywalker
True.

Still, micromanagement is an outside factor, so it shouldn't be considered.

Maybe attend a 6+ hour turnchat before you say that.

But I agree; micromanagement shouldn't be a factor.

[Nolan]

I see what both sides are saying, Skywalker is saying if 12 slaves can do the job of 6 natives, and 6 natives is all we need keep the slaves because they are free and natives will cost 6 gold. On the other hand the other side is saying with those 12 slaves we can add 12 pop points to our cities while before if we add natives we can only add 6 to take away the same amount of infrastructural capacity, and they feel those 12 slaves in cities will make more than 1/2 a gold piece each, which is the upkeep they will have to pay to cover the native units.
Those in my opinion are the only two arguments that are really relevant here, the micromanagement argument of time seems silly, as it's already been looked at and we all know we'll need twice as many slaves as native workers, still in truth I don't know which would be better but in roleplay.

rp}

Keep the foriegn assistance in the fields it's it's only way to the Great Bananna.

Rp}

regards

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Nolan
I see what both sides are saying, Skywalker is saying if 12 slaves can do the job of 6 natives, and 6 natives is all we need keep the slaves because they are free and natives will cost 6 gold. On the other hand the other side is saying with those 12 slaves we can add 12 pop points to our cities while before if we add natives we can only add 6 to take away the same amount of infrastructural capacity, and they feel those 12 slaves in cities will make more than 1/2 a gold piece each, which is the upkeep they will have to pay to cover the native units.

I'd like to respond to that.
First, let's establish a few things. Number one, I'm sure you'd agree that in the long range, workers (or any kind) are more useful when they're out there, improving the terrain, than when they're in cities, working it. Now, from this we can infer that it's best to begin integrating workers (domestic or slaves) only after all the public works have been completed.
Now, taking a look at the current map I see that there's still work to be done in our own lands, and A LOT of work to be done in the German lands which we are about to take over. However, once we're done with that, we'll only need workers to clean up pollution, improve new lands that we conquer (e.g. Zululand and England) and do occasional jobs for the SMC during war.
For doing all this, I'm sure you'd agree that we can make do with, let's say, 40 slaves. I remind you that we've recently researched replaceable parts, which makes workers work twice as fast, which means that slaves are now as fast as workers used to be. I'd also like to remind you that our civ is industrious, which makes our workers, domestic and foreign, work faster than normal. Having said that, I'm rather confident that you'd agree that 40 slaves would be sufficient to perform these minor jobs in more than adequate speed.
IIRC, we currently have about 70 slaves and about 50-60 domestic workers. After the war with Germany is over, we may have 90, even nearly 100 slaves because we get one slave per every German city that we conquer, and we'll capture Otto's workers eventually. If we'd want to reserve 40 slaves for odd jobs, that would leave us with 50-60 slaves and 50-60 domestic workers to integrate, which is definitely enough, considering that:
A. We don't really want to integrate so many workers into a city that it passes 21 pop (or less if it shares some tiles with a neighboring city) because then we'd just have specialists, which don't do much good I'm afraid.
B. By the time all our terrain, including the German acquisitions, is fully improved, most of our cities will have already had hospitals built into them and would have grown by several citizens, so we'd need less workers to integrate into those cities to have as many citizens in the city as available tiles.

[Kuciwalker]

So we sould integrate native workers first. We reduce the drain on our econemy from their support costs, and we surely have enough to increase our pop by the amount we want.

[Panag]

hi

its about time someone does something

have a nice day