Simple way to make CIV more "real"

[Master Zen]

Communists trying to rule the world? Very True. Just as true as the US is trying these days to do it also.

As for N.Korea, who is who to decide who is a "civilized" nation and who is not? One cannot judge others solely by Western values and assume that they are universal. I for one think that the 2nd Amendment is a load of BS yet it is part of US culture and "values" (if one could consider owning assault guns as a "value"). Would you like other CIVILIZED countries to start pressuring the US to repeal the amendment? I don't think so. As a foreigner, I don't really give a damn if you all start shooting the hell out of each other, just as I don't care if the irresponsable N.Korean government starves its own people. It's their business, let them take care of it.

I think its not just the fact that N. Korea has nukes or not. The issue goes much further than that is basically the old case of double standards that the US applies whenever it feels like it. For example, Israel has nukes, never signed the NPT yet the US says nothing about it, instead pours billions of dollars in military aid. Has an embargo on communist Cuba yet trades freely with communist China with as dismal a human rights record as the former. Placed sanctions on newly nuclear Pakistan and India but shelves the idea now that it needs both their help with the war on "terror". See what I mean?

In the end, there is nothing wrong with being a patriot, or a nationalist, and feeling a deep pride with one's country. There are many things about the US to feel proud of, just as most people will find many things to be proud of of their own countries. However, being so arrogant as to proclaim one's country as the "greatest in history" is as subjective as saying that Coke is better than Pepsi.

Cuba more prosperous before Castro?? Yes, a few rich land-owners dependent on US investments were more prosperous, FAR more prosperous under Batista. The millions of other regular Cubans were mired in poverty. Most cubans' standard of living increased with Castro, only to later decrease with the end of Soviet aid. And trust me, I've actually been there, before AND after the wall came down. And BTW, I happen to hate Castro, but I do admire his willingness to step up to the US, something that most other Third World leaders should learn a little.

The US-backed Contras in Nicaragua actually LOST, so I don't see why the Sandinistas only allowed elections because of US pressure.

Finally, you should be wise to read this:

"More than one million Iraqis have died - 567,000 of them children - as a direct consequence of economic sanctions... As many as 12 percent of the children surveyed in Baghdad are wasted, 28 percent stunted, and 29 percent underweight."
United Nation's Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), December 1995

So is the UN on Saddam's side too???

CIV3:

I like the idea of "small neutral powers" since it would more realisticaly portray the world. With 16 civs this was posible, with 24 in PTW its even better. I usually play on a 240x192 custom-made map which I based on a Civ1 map where I played a really great game. There were of course only 7 civs and 8 major continents and about 5 smaller ones. I had fun tweaking the map for Civ3 since I placed two of every resource on the continents of 6 civs (my original enemies from the Civ1 game), Since one of the major continents was uninhabited, I put about 6 civs and the others in the smaller islands. Many of these civs were without certain resources and many ended up rather backwards technologically and militarily. In the end, there were 6 major powers, 4 medium powers, with the rest being smaller weaker states.

[Master Zen]

Colonies:

The ability to conquer foreign cities yet loosely administer them (i.e. they could act as if with a governor to save you the trouble). As the "mother country" you would get preferential treatment in trade.

Also, if you colonized a far away continent with sufficient cities and sufficient prosperity, the citizens could revolt and withdraw from your empire, just like the revolutions in American countries or the South revolting from the North in the US Civil War.

[TomCB]

Here is the problem with being the only remaining super power.
If stability is going to be maintained, we have to do it.
If N Korea decided to pass a few nukes around, it could mean millions of dead.
Other nations, with the possible exception of Pakistan will not.
What the world does not need is a "loose cannon" selling nukes to every nut case with enough money.

That is why the number of nations who have these weapons needs to be kept as is or lowered.

As far as you points about the double standards
You are very correct, and the US will regret the collection of money grubing leaders we have had to chose from.
Actually, because Isreal is pretty much a theocracy, US aid to it is Unconstitutional.
The whole problem is that we do not follw our own laws, mainly the 10th amendment.

As far as UN claims goes, follow this link http://www.fao.org/News/2000/000904-e.htm

According to this source, the area of Iraq that are having the least problems are the areas that happen not to be under Saddams control.

Using this logic, an attack on Iraq to remove him would save lives.
Furthermore, the worlds (less the US) reluctance to attack and remove Saddam is causing further health issues.

I still don't buy the numbers, if they were accurate, Arab nations in the area if no one else, would not comply with them in mass.
Also, if things were really so bad, why don't the natives do something about it.
What not one marytr for his people, not one woman so saddened by the death of her child that she won't die to take him out?

Further reading try here
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...iz.html#People

It is the CIA fact book on Iraq.
Lets not forget that the only reason Iraq has sactions against it is because they did not comply with the cease fire terms of the Gulf War.
All Saddam has to do is comply with the almightly UN's orders.

As far as Cuba goes, all your boy Castro did was replace one set of land owners with his set of land owners.
I have scene the tape, he lives in splendor while his people starve.
Please stop suggesting that any prosperity in Cuba was a result of Soviet aid.
That is not prosperity, it was welfare.
As far as stepping up against the US.
Yea, that is working out real well, and for what?
So he can ............
Does everyone in the world actually feel that the US is ready to land troops on their shores?
If that is the case, they are deluded.

Hate to break it to you, but the Contras won.
They disbanded as a requirement of the free elections.

AND, everyone know that Pepsi is better than coke.
LOL

As far as small neutral countries go, I don't see how that would really work, since as we all know, they would just get gobbled up anyway.
Any ideas on that?

[Mr. President]

They have small independent factions in Medieval Total War. They're not always neutral, of course. I think the secret is that they only have about one or two provinces and a couple of armies, so they require much less processing.

P.S. Since the institution of America's economic and governmental system a little over two hundred years ago, it has risen to become the supreme technological nation on the globe, the richest economy in history. Its rate of progression is exponential. If no-one's caught up by now, no-one will. America is not successful because it rides roughshod over its rivals. America is not successful because of its amber waves of grain, abundant land area, and mountains of cash. America is successful because its people had the attitude for success from the very beginning. And that's something you can't learn, not in a million years of instruction by the scientists of Atlantis.

[dannubis]

Despite of what you are saying, the day Okinawa fell, Japan was finished. They had lost Mantsoeria (Northern China) to the Chinese by then and all of the supply lines coming from New Guinee went past Okinawa. So waiting for another three to six months would have resulted in the entire Japanese economy comming to a grinding halt... et voila, game over for Japan. Your governement knew this. But they had invested millions of dollars in the Manhattan Project. So, why not use the bomb now that we have it, eh ?

I really can't understand why a souvereign country is forced to make its nuclear weapons program public by a country that used nuclear weapons before on CIVILIAN targets and that defies every treaty that is signed during the past three decades (START anyone ?)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely dislike the idea that every moron on this planet has the ability to whipe out a million people whenever he feels like it. But it's just that i don't see how a country that still has the largest nuclear and biochemical arsenal in the world has the nerve to dictate to other people what they can and can not do ...

[Panag]

Originally posted by Coracle


On the contrary. Far too many Civ 3 players are NOT demanding at all, and that is why they tolerated a rushed beta product, Civ 3, with many inherent flaws, and PTW was worse and even more overpriced.

hi ,

we know that , now stop to put it in our noses each day , .......

this is a thread where people try to make the best from it , hoping that some changes shall be made , this thread is full with positive ideas , not negative , .....

write the darn things in your SIG , it worked before , ....

have a nice CIV day

[TomCB]

Dear dannubis
The statements you made about the US knowledge of Japan is popular myth. In the war, no one KNEW anything.
Today, we DO KNOW from Japanese people alive then, that they were still prepared to fight to the end, regardless of losses.
Sure, they could have been carpet bombed into starvation, but that would have caused even more dead than the two atomic bombs caused.
The atomic bombs had a net saving of lives by 10 fold, and it was the best thing that could have been done at the time.
Talk about lousy options if you want to save lives and end the war quickly.
Remember, several raids on Germany caused more dead than either atomic bomb.
Also, the Japanese did not surrender after 1, only the second made them give up, that ruins the whole "perhaps a warning blast off shore would make them give in" arguement.
And we even agreed to a non-unconditional surrender in order to end the war, we let them keep the emperor, who was guilty of a VAST number of war crimes.
As far as not allowing rogue nations to have these weapons goes.
Since the US is the only country that will be forced to deal with these minor counties, it falls to the US to make sure they do not get such weapons.
They can not be trusted.
I don't understand why so many people, who hate the idea of a neighbor having a handgun, can be so trusting as to allow a nation that has invaded it's neighbor to have such weapons.
And Iraq has demonstrated the willingness to use such weapons on it's own population.
N Korea has shown a willingness to allow mass starvation rather then change.
You really want these nuts to get A-Bombs?

As far as treaties goes, START was never ratified by the US senate, which would have made it law in the US.
It was a bad treaty and even our Senate knew it.
So it was never broken, because it never was ratified.
NOW, you may bring up the various MAD (Mutual assured destruction) treaties that the US is withdrawing from.
Lets not forget that there is a provision in them to allow a party to withdraw after a 6 month notice.
So, NO, the US has not violated any treaties that were ratified, and only those ratified are real.
Any not ratified are only ideas written down.
OK, by withdrawing, we will be able to start building defenses against rogue nations like Korea.

The world does not like the US to be proactive, and now does not it when the US tries to defend itself from attack.

We really don't get any of you.....................

[dannubis]

Being proactive is one thing. Actively trying to impose your view onto other SOUVEREIGN governements is something completely different. And I am not only talking about the countries you have attacked or are about to attack. "You are either with us or against us" is a statement which leaves little or no room for neutrality, no ?

And as for the willingness to test the effect of nuclear weapons on a civilian population, your own governement detonated in the early 50's some A-bombs suspiciously close to one of your own vilages (don't remeber which one - national geographic documentary), resulting in a rise of cancer of about 25 %.

Several raids on Germany and also the raid on Tokio did indeed cause more fatalities than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. But I hardly see this to be a reason to trust the american governement with these kind of weapons.

I never said that i liked that those nutcases have nuclear weapons.

All I am saying is that when you look at the american foreign policy from the other side of the border, the USA tries to protect its own interests, and in doing so it often shamelessly rapes the principles it claims to stand for. And that is called plain hypocracy (spelling?).

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by raguil_79


In Civ2 if you tried to move a damaged unit into an allied civ's city, the unit would be partially healed, it would say something like "our Allies have repaired our damaged unit!".

Wow, I can't believe I missed that. I played Civ2 for years!!!

I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO GO BACK AND RE-INSTALL CIV2!!!! AAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIEEEEEEE.....

[Panag]

hi ,

indeed there should be something like a dockyard to heal ships faster , including the ones from your allies

, maybe a drydock as wonder to heal ships in one turn or build a special battleship or so , ......

canals should be included (!)

have a nice day

[Master Zen]

I still can't believe that you believe the US must maintain stability since it is actually the country which is starting the conflicts! It is bullying Iraq, N.Korea, calling Iran also a part of an "axis of evil". It has the power to end the palestinian crisis but does nothing to stop Israeli aggressiveness and impunity.

Second, the reason most Westerners believe "rouge" states from getting nukes is TOTALLY WRONG. Westerners believe these countries get nukes to use them against someone, yet the REAL reason is to get others from attacking them. No leader, no matter how crazy or disrespectful of human life would ever drop a nuke and risk outright annihilation by the US nuclear response. The reason they want nukes is for the major powers to think twice before attacking them. Remember that these countries are not aggressive as they are paranoid. No nuclear power has ever dared attack another nuclear power, and even having just a few nukes is a better deterrent than a huge land army.

No one forces the US to "deal" with rouge states, the US does it on its own initiative. The doctrine of pre-emption can hardly be justified because if so, every nation then has the right to beat the crap out of its neighbor if it suspects its neighbor to threaten them. Russia could pre-empt Georgia and Chechnia, India and Pakistan could pre-empt each other, Israel could pre-empt the entire middle east, China could pre-empt Taiwan, etc etc etc. What kind of a world would that be?

Finally, to Mr. President, catching up does not take months or years, it takes decades, even centuries. Many countries have cought up with and surpassed the US in many industries in which the US was a total world leader which does not make me doubt at any moment that one day, not far away, a country or group of countries will catch up and surpass the US as a world power. That is a fact of history that has never been proved wrong no matter how powerful the nation on top has ever been. Conformists in those top nations have simply been foolish to believe that the conditions that exists today will somehow be maintained forever and ever, but as any serious reader of history knows, history is everything but static.

CIV3

Don't harbors repair units in one turn? I would like the ideas of "dockyards" or docks or whatever to serve as ports for colonies (i.e. the road from a colony could lead to a dock instead of making a far-away city). These docks could also hold ships so they could be used in foreign territory, like airbases.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Wow! Good god!

I leave Apolyton for 2 days and there's enough teenage-level political ranting to fuel an entirely new Israeli-Palestinian conflict!

In fact, let's get Sharon and Arafat memberships here! They could still vent hatred and no one would die! The solution has been found at last!

Now, for CIV:

Religious movements should DEFINITELY be represented in Civ. It's one of the game's largest flaws, although I suppose nationality does an OK job representing such things.

Also, I was thinking last night, what if Barbarians, instead of just pillaging your cities and dissappearing, take over your cities and form RULING FAMILIES (if you're a Monarchy)? That's what happens in real life: armed forces take power, become the ruling class, and "get soft". It could be represented in Civ by a sidebar that would say "Ruling Class" and then the appropriate term (Seljuk, Hsung-Nu, etc.)... a certain % of your gold could be siphoned off to them! In other words, LUXURIES FOR A SELECT GROUP. I know corruption nominally represents this, but I'd like to see it in greater detail.

I wouldn't go knocking those programmers though... history is pretty dang complex and there's a lot to put in there!

[Master Zen]

Chat rooms instead of battlegrounds. Now THAT would be a solution for the ages. We probably wouldn't even need the UN!

Oh and by the way, THE CONTRAS LOST. That is an irrefutable fact. If they had won they would have knocked the Sandinistas out of power something that didn't happen until they lost the 1989 (?) elections.

Then again maybe you were referring to the Nintendo game which with the 30 lives trick was rather easy to beat.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by raguil_79
Chat rooms instead of battlegrounds. Now THAT would be a solution for the ages. We probably wouldn't even need the UN!

Oh and by the way, THE CONTRAS LOST. That is an irrefutable fact. If they had won they would have knocked the Sandinistas out of power something that didn't happen until they lost the 1989 (?) elections.

Then again maybe you were referring to the Nintendo game which with the 30 lives trick was rather easy to beat.

BTW, has anyone considered a "School of the Americas" small wonder, that would allow you to built privateer-style guerrilla units, that you could use to terrorise sovereign states? (à la the Contras)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by panag

canals should be included (!)

Yes, where are the canals?

[Master Zen]

Privateer guerrilla units, that's a good idea, could you just use the editor to give guerrilla units the property of not showing it's civ's colors?

FIRAXIS READ THIS: WE WANT CANALS!!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by raguil_79
Privateer guerrilla units, that's a good idea, could you just use the editor to give guerrilla units the property of not showing it's civ's colors?

Yes, I suppose you could. I haven't because I'm orthodox about playing Civ as though it just "came out of the box," i.e., the way Firaxis tells me to play it. Maybe I'm stupid.

But, damn, forces like the Contras play a greater role in the world today than many other military units depicted in the game. Someone should include them! (i.e., privateer units with guerrilla stats)

The contras were obviously a US-backed force, but no one could really call the US on it, because the Contras were nominally fighting for "freedom" or whatever... just like a privateer unit.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

In fact, privateer-style guerrilas would be a good way to depict one of our top "villians" of today, the TALIBAN!

[mrboo123]

Originally posted by raguil_79
Chat rooms instead of battlegrounds. Now THAT would be a solution for the ages. We probably wouldn't even need the UN! (...)

Yup, maybe would cause World-peace? But we still need the UN... as a mod!

[TomCB]

First, my spelling and typing is anyting but great, I will never make an issue of it unless I can't tell what a word is.

NOW. Why did Britain and France declace war on Germany, they were not threatened? They only had an agreement with Poland to "help" if Poland was attacked.
Some governments must be changed if it is determined to be required.

They were attacking belately pro-active.

Other governments are here trying to change the US all the time, the difference is that here they hire law firms to lobby congress and public relation firms to broadcast their version of the truth.


The world is filled with fence sitters.
We are just plain tired of it. Time to put certain issues to rest once and for all.

As far as nuclear testing goes.
Remember that no one (publically) knew how dangerous the bombs were.
BUT, evidence has shown that they knew there was more danger than they let on.
Smart? Moral? Not at all.
Necessary? Maybe (big MAYBE, that they thought so)

The US only used the threat of nukes if we or our allies were attacked. This saved the need for massive conventional arms at the ready.

If you actually think that the N Koreans are in any way morally equal to the US, or just about any other nation, then you don't really know who they are.

The US has had more than a couple of times where the use of nukes would have saved American lives and we did not use them.

As far as American interests goes, I guess it looks a whole lot different on this side of the border than your side. We constantly read about our leaders (mainly Clinton) selling out our national interests for personal or very minor gains.
We give VAST sums of money to countries that hate us because we don't give more.
The hypocracy you mention is far and away the worst sin of the US government.
It is rampant and it is the cause of MOST of our problems.
The issue is that our congress, and many times our president, are no better than whores to special interest groups. Those special interest groups are the ones that hire the law firms and have vocal if not large groups that will make a stink when called upon.

4 raguil_79
You assumption that western powers don't want rouge states to get nuclear waepon so that they may be blackmailed is on the surface plausiable, but upon inspection, is not correct.
Once they have them, they can blackmail (like N Korea did in 94) by offering to sell to other powers or groups.
Also, the US, for instance, could erase N Korea before N korea had any idea that missiles were coming, so them having nukes would not be a factor.

Heaven help the world if a nuke goes off in the US. The people here would no longer care about civilians or even whole countries. it would turn into a fight to completely erase any opponent before it could happen again. Whole sections of the world would be rendered uninhabitable.
Also, I have to agree that no country can expect to be powerful forever. The US has lost alot of drive to maintain that lead. China will most likely be the largest economy in another 20-30 years.
Europe could but I think that the huge levels of socialism will stop that.
Brazil could still emerge as a power house fueled by it's power industry growing at a very fast clip.

The US people are "fat and happy" and it will take a real threat to change that.

As far as the Contra's success goes, yes I can refute that they lost.
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova...crossroads.htm
That link was very easy to find.

The goal of the contras was to 1. get rid of the communists. and 2. Appantly, was to sell cocain.
They sold alot of crack and the communists are gone.

If they lost, the communists would still be there.

The editor in CIV 3 and PTW is pretty good and no one is "stupid" for playing like they want to.
Is there a way to tone down the global warming.
My GOD, the AI's go into a free for all nuke war and I need 100 workers just to keep my area set up.

The Taliban was the leadership of a minor country. I would not call them guerrilas per se, but the Nothern resistance could be.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The Taliban were proxies of Pakistan. The Northern Alliance are proxies are several countries. Afghanistan under the Taliban or at any time in the 20th century to the present day was not a major power center; thus, it should not be represented in a scenario with limited AIs.

[TomCB]

I would tend to agree with Yahweh Sabaoth.
Perhaps a Taliban type of group would make a good religious zealot area like a very minor power or barbarians.
Special units or spy like attacks unitl destroyed and even after for a bit.
I do believe I called them the leaders of a minor country.
OK, maybe minor was exaggerating their strength.

[Master Zen]

1) Ok, here's the real deal with the Contras:
They were militarily DRIVEN OUT of Nicaragua by 1987, launching only minor incursions up until de Sandinista electoral defeat of 1990. Plus, thanks to Ollie North and the scandal it became more difficult to supply these guys. Saying this is a VICTORY just because the Sandinistas lost the election is just like saying Germany actually won WW2 because the British Empire and the Soviet Union no longer exist, and now they are driving VWs and Mercedes.

2) The Brits and French did not pre-empt Germany in Sept. 1939, if that's what you're getting at. It was the response of a protection treaty with Poland which was activated the moment the Wehrmacht crossed the polish border. Pre-emption would have been invading Germany the moment Hitler got to power (didn't anyone read Mein Kampf at the time?), or at the most after he re-militarized the Rheinland. I can hardly call this Allied response pro-active since by this time Hitler was master of most of central Europe.

3) It is politically impossible for the US or any other nation to completely wipe out another with nukes unless that nation launched a nuke first, so YES, having nukes is a deterrent towards a conventional attack since destroying N. Korea would be no compensation for the US population if a Korean nuke killed hundreds of thousands of US troops or leveled a West Coast city.


CIV3

Yahweh: perhaps you feel that you're cheating if you meddle with the editor (trust me, sometimes I feel the same). Sometimes however, one must admit that Firaxis was WRONG and the game could be better. This was the case with corruption which at 100% is way too excesive. It is much more realistic with 50%. Why don't you just try a "test" game with unit changes to see if it pleases you. Then when you play for real you won't feel so guilty!

TomCB: I have also tried to mod the pollution but there appears to be no way to change the "general" effects of it. I modded the improvements to half of their regular pollution value (most polluting improvements have a pollution of 2 except the Factory and Iron Works which have 4), but have yet to play the game with these new values.

[TomCB]

raguil_79
The Contras withdrew as a result of a deal. The left in exchange for the elections.
The Communists are gone and we all know they didn't retire willingly.
HOWEVER. I must say that I was extremely surprised at them and the Soviets, who allowed their power to slip away and did not do anything "crazy" to try to keep it.
That showed a great deal of restraint on the Soviets side anyway.

Didn't anyone ever read Mein Kampf?.......LOL
That gave me a very good laugh, thankyou.
No, no one did, it was like they were just begging for trouble.
At least Adolf was honest, he told everyone what he was going to do years ahead of time.

As far as political possibilities, if a nuke went off in the US or an allied country. I don't know of anything that would be out of the question.
Look at the level of freedoms the US government is taking away after a relatively minor attack like 9-11.
Don't look at destroying N Korea in response to a nuke attack as compensation, look at it revenge and a warning to others.

The agreement with Poland was to "help". not automatically declare war.
Hell, I have so many of these conversations going on right now I forgot what the debate was over and I don't even know if I care anymore.

As for pollution.
I only have real issues when the AI starts throwing nukes around like rice at a wedding.
I have maps that show a continent all orange.
When they nuke, they really nuke. They go freaking crazy with damn things.
The new values you speak of help alot as long as you build mass transits as soon as pops start getting to 13 or so.
DON'T wait to build the Mass Transits....BUILD THEM NOW.
I also found that by planting forest everywhere there is no irragation, it helps alot, or seems to anyway.

I would also like to be informed when a nations uses a nuke.
The AI always seems to know when I use one, but I don't know when they use 30 or so.

[Master Zen]

Do not confuse the Contras with other anti-Sandinista political forces. The Contras were an armed counter-revolutionary force, equipped and trained by the US in Honduras with the major objective of removing the Sandinistas by force, something which by 1987 they had failed to do. Violeta Chamorro, winner of the 1989 or 1990 elections WAS an anti-Sandinista, yet one could not have considered her a Contra, nor even remotely "attached" to them and proof is that the US was still not too friendly towards her government.

Revenge, psychologically speaking, is a personal compensation for an alleged wrongdoing, if it weren't, then no one would do it.

"Help" towards Poland was a de facto protection pact considering how tarnished the British and French reputuations were after the Czech debacle.

As for the Soviet withdrawl, I guess Gorby was smarter and less ego-centric than his predecessors. Amazing how a superpower ceased to be without going with a bang (and thank heavens, cuz we wouldn't be discussing our asses off if they had).

CIV3

Yep, Mass Transit is a MUST BUILD the moment you can. Recycling Centers can wait a while, I usually build a factory and a hydro/solar plant before, then build a manufacturing plant after. Usually there's no problem with the hydro because I do ANYTHING to get the Hoover Dam.

Speaking of wonders, I find the following ones to be absolutely necessary:

- Pyramids
- Great Library
- Magellan's Expedition
- Hoover Dam
- Women's Suffrage

I also like JS Cathedral but most of the time the AI beats me to it. I find Magellan's Expedition the truly vital wonder, I usually re-start the game if I don't get it.

[dannubis]

moved this post to the appropriate thread. Sorry hadn't seen it

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Whew! What a lotta debates.

Re: Britain vs. Germany over Poland... that cannot be said to be pre-emptive war, as it was the invocation of a defense treaty with Poland. However, it is quite ridiculous to assume that "pre-emptive" war is a new concept, as some claim. Not that I support Dubya or any pre-emptive warriors... I'm just saying that the concept dates back at least 6000 years.

CIV

Re: Changing the rules... I do intend to mod my default file to include the "privateer guerilla"... otherwise, as someone else noted, what is the point of the guerilla, besides to replace your medival infantry? In the real world, there are more guerilla forces involved in combat than conventional forces (these days).

In terms of changing my default file, I hope this is not too off-topic, but does anyone know where I can get a "Civ MultiTool" utility for PTW? I D/L'd the Civ MultiTool yesterday and was very impressed with it, but it doesn't seem to work with PTW.

[LionQ]

Sorry. I don't know.

[LionQ]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Which VERSION of Civ2 was that??

Just the "normal" version. You just move you damaged NavalUnit to an AlliedCity and the HealthBar was getting higher and greener.

[LionQ]

Huh??? Something is not right here. This post belong in another thread. Sorry, guys...