Science Advisory: Do we want Tanks or Bombers first?

joncnunn · December 30, 2002, 17:18

In a few turns we will complete the Theory of Evolution and be granted Electronics and Radio for free.

By that time, there is a good chance the AI will have finished reseraching Steel so we can directly reserach Combustion.

After Combustion though, there is a choice between Flight (Fighters, BOMBERS, and Air Ports) and Mass Production (Battleships, Carriers, and leads to Mobile Warfare for TANKS).

In the first case, we get Flight 4 turns after Combustion completes, the first Airport built 2 or 3 turns later with the first Bomber 2 or 3 turns after that.

In the second case, we get Mobilie Warfare 8 turns after the completion of Combustion, with the first Tank in 2 or 3 more turns.

Which do we want first?

joncnunn · December 30, 2002, 17:25

In my own games, I put off Flight for as long as possible, but that's because I always build the Colossus which also expires with Flight.

But since we don't have the Colosus in this game, it's not so clear weather Bombers or Tanks would be more useful.

GodKing · December 30, 2002, 17:58

tanks...... duhhhhhhhh

Kuciwalker · December 30, 2002, 19:05

*BIG sigh*

manually add +1 to discover Mobile Warfare ASAP

duh

roadcage · December 30, 2002, 20:29

You can't put bombers in an Army

Thud · December 30, 2002, 23:06

Ok, ok, I know you were all waiting for me to return to give you advice on this one. Well, it is a toughie, but I would say mobile warfare. Of course, you don't have to listen to me.... ah, good. You obviously did.

Kloreep · December 31, 2002, 00:50

Arty seems to be working fine, so Mobile Warfare.

Aidun · December 31, 2002, 07:33

Our ground armies could do with new techniques. Flight is not yet needed. Bombers can't occupy an enemy city, tanks can. Weakening units in cities can also be done with the huge artillery regiment we have. We don't need bombers for that.
With battleships we could make coast bombardments when we would decide to attack the Zulus or the Romans.
I vote for tanks.

Aidun

Shiber · December 31, 2002, 07:44

Bombers can do what our artillery is already doing, only that they have greater range, but they require an airport to base in. All in all, bombers are better than artillery in some points and weaker in others.
However, tanks are wholly different from cavalry. They are much stronger and they blitz, and although they're slower than cavalry, they certainly make up for it with all of their tactical advantages. I vote motorized transportation!

E_T · December 31, 2002, 10:23

I almost always get Flight last, but I also have the Colossus. Both have their Good & bad points. But it all comes down to what can be done with this version Patch, compaired to later Versions.

Bombers (and other Flight Capable Units) are hampered by somethings that were fixed in 1.29 & PTW. Where as, Tanks aren't.

So my vote is tanks first. It won't be much longer until we have the other tech.

E_T

Aro · December 31, 2002, 10:29

Tanks! Hundreds of them! Thousands!

Kuciwalker · December 31, 2002, 11:33

Actually, bombers don't require an airport to make bombing runs IIRC. Airports are just air barracks and air harbors.

joncnunn · December 31, 2002, 11:43

Science Advisory updated to reflect overwhelming desire for Tanks first.

Well, Bombers can be built without an Airport, but that makes them merely Regulars instead of Vetrans so I always build Airports first.

Kuciwalker · December 31, 2002, 11:55

What's the point of veteran air units? Hit points have no effect on aircraft IIRC, because they either get shot down or they don't, they don't just lose hit points.

Shiber · December 31, 2002, 12:38

They do when an aircraft performing an air superiority mission attacks another aircraft... I think.
Anyway, for a while most cities will not have or will not be able to build SAM sites. During that period, the AI's only defense against our air bombing runs will be fighters performing superiority missions.
The same goes for us of course, so we better build veteran air units if we want our units to survive or properly defend against AI planes.

CiverDan · December 31, 2002, 14:16

Go for tanks first. It will have the most immediate impact on any miliary campaign. Not to mention the fact that we are currently not in a position where the artillery we have either insnt doing the job or is not in a position too.

Kuciwalker · December 31, 2002, 14:52

Shiber - I'm pretty sure that an air unit is either shot down or not shot down in those air superiority missions. I don't think I've ever seen one of my air units damaged.

Shiber · December 31, 2002, 14:58

I have little experience with fighting with air units so I can't say that I'm sure. Anyone here with more exp. in air warfare?

ManicStarSeed · December 31, 2002, 15:44

After several air supeiority missions, I have had my jet fighters down to 1 HP...

Mss

Kuciwalker · December 31, 2002, 15:55

I guess you're right then.

Panag · December 31, 2002, 16:54

hi ,

, this is hard choice , well we should have tanks first just to be save , but we can get flight without any danger and tanks later , with flight now we should build airports first , they shall give us a connection in each city thus allowing trade to be uninterupted and moving units between airports , since we shall get mass production first we can build a couple carriers and send them out , nothing goes above a carrier with three bombers and one fighter , they are great to bomb troops to kingdom come and cause great damage , .....

sooner or later we shall have to fight a war overseas therefor it would be intresting to send out a couple carrier as soon as we have them , they shall be in place when needed , with flight we can do recon missions and watch enemy troop movements , ...

, we should have this poll a bit later , ....

there shall be no enemy left on the continent to pose a serious treat to us until the modern age , so we should go for flight

have a nice day

joncnunn · January 2, 2003, 18:39

I've now drawn up 4 possible plans for the modern era under the science advisory; each plan assumes we are going after a different victory condition.

Epistax · January 2, 2003, 19:09

Planes in general are severely underpowered IMHO. All they're good for is destroying improvements (again, IMHO) (and perhaps advancing armies...).

To put it this way, if they have tanks, we could sure use bombers. If they don't have tanks, we could use tanks to own the land.

I haven't been keeping up, but I'd have to guess they don't have them.

Who wants all of Abananaba?

Kuciwalker · January 2, 2003, 19:12

Panag - no, it is not a hard choice, at least that is the opinion of the vast majority here. We can't just "get tanks later". Otherwise, the AI might get them before us because we spent time researching planes. Even if the AI didn't get tanks before us, we would get less use out of them.

Jonny · January 2, 2003, 21:28

Tanks!

After all, what is the point of bombardment by bombers if you can't follow that up with a strong land force to capture the now-weakened cities?

Panag · January 3, 2003, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
Panag - no, it is not a hard choice, at least that is the opinion of the vast majority here. We can't just "get tanks later". Otherwise, the AI might get them before us because we spent time researching planes. Even if the AI didn't get tanks before us, we would get less use out of them.

hi ,

tanks dont fly to Uber Isle back and forth when an invasion fleet lands there , ...........

since we control the continent and we shall have a techlead we could go for flight , it shall not only bomb advancing invasion fleets , something tanks cant do yet

, but we can make sure that any city with an airport shall not fall into enemy hands when its surrounded , .....

we could even sell flight to other species and even if they would have the tech to build those monsters with huge cannons they would more then happily trade it together with other stuff we can use for our discovery of flight

have a nice day

Shiber · January 3, 2003, 02:36

Tanks first, for all the reasons specified above, but we should make sure that we have flight by the time we invade Zululand so that we can capture a Zulu city or two with forces that will arrive via ships, and then rush an airport and fly our tanks from the mainland to our Zululand stronghold (provided that we have several airports in the mainland, of course).
To me, this seems faster and more efficient than an invasion that is based solely on sea transports.

Kuciwalker · January 3, 2003, 12:52

Panag - give it up. You're wrong.

Btw, bombers CAN'T KILL ANYTHING, so they aren't too useful defending an island. We have artillery.

joncnunn · January 3, 2003, 13:37

Since the game is in 1.21f, we can cause Naval units to run to a friendly harbor to repair just by nicking them. (Including loaded transports) Some bombers on Uber Island would be useful.

I think we still want tanks first though.

realpolitic · January 3, 2003, 17:55

Tanks On a good day, 1 on 1 they can defeat Infantry. Anyone trying that with Cavalry could be convicted of cruelty to animals.