Thread Tools
Old November 28, 2000, 16:59   #1
hellrazor
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 35
Talent creation
Hi everyone...it's been forever since I've posted...I had to look up my password. I've been playing SMAC again after a long absence. Does anyone know how talent creation works for large cities? I have a science city, population 23, with total energy 436. At 10% psych, that gives me 44 psych + 106 bonus for a total psych of 150. Well, under the psych tab it only shows 11 talents.

This is more to satisfy my obsessive-compulsive nature than any real value to gameplay, but is there an algorithm that calculates talent and drone production? I know in the manual it says 2 psych points per talent, but that doesn't seem to work for large cities. A rough survey of my larger cities seemed to show about 1 talent for 4 psych, and my science city seems to be differnt from that as well.

FYI, I'm playing cyborgs, at transcend level, with demo-green-knowledge-eudaimonic for a net efficiency of +7. I have approx. 30 cities with 3 slave factions. The game is basically over but it bugs me that I don't quite understand exactly how the drones and talents work. Perhaps there's something simple I'm missing but I can't see it. I'd appreciate any help.
hellrazor is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 17:46   #2
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
Algorithm to calculate talents:

First, all male drones are converted to female drones at a cost of 2 psych each.

Second, if there are any ordinary workers, they are converted to talents at a cost of 2 each.

Third, drones are converted to talents at a cost of 4 psych each. If there are 2 leftover psych points, those convert one drone to a worker.

The total amount of psych spent never exceeds 2 * base size. Thus, your size 23 city only gets to use 46 of its 150 psych energy to create talents/workers.

[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited November 28, 2000).]
Tau Ceti is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 18:02   #3
Googlie
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 GaiansACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 MorganACDG3 CMNsACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha Centaurians
Emperor
 
Googlie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 9,541

Prima gives the drone formula on p25 of their Strategy Guide.

The basic unmodified # drones per base is contingent on base size and diff level. Where transcend = 5, with a base size 23 the unmodified # drones will be:

D = (Pop + Diff -6), or in your case, 23 + 5 - 6, or 22.

Bureaucracy Drones ( total for your faction) are a function of your # bases, difficulty rating, efficiency rating and worldsize you are playing on (where tiny is .6, small is .8, standard is 1.0, large is 1.1 and huge is 1.6)

formula is thus:

BD = (# bases x 2)/(8 - diff) x (4 + effic) x worldsize

so if you were playing on a standard size planet, you have:

(30 x 2)/ (8 - 5) x (4 + 7) x 1.0, or 220 drones

For each base, the beuracracy drones will then be somewhere between 0 and that base size (randomly determined by the computer, until all 220 have been allocated.

Now for each base, basic drones and Bureaucracy Drones are added, but never to exceed the population for that base.

If this results in an excess # drones, in total, every new citizen will be a drone, or psych points will be allocated to remove that drone "surplus"

So your total psych for that science base might not in fact be available to reduce the inherent drone problem in that base let alone turn pops into talents (obviously it does, or you would have none)

it should be possible to verify the number of overall drones, and the "surplus" that is draining your aggregate psych points, but the unknown part of it is the random element in how the computer allocates the total bureaucracy drones among the various bases.

Any psych points left over are then the basis for the conversion to talents. If there is an unwieldy drone "surplus" then you will need to manually convert pops to psych generating talents to reduce the imbalance.

That's how I read the Prima formulae anyway.

Googlie
Googlie is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 18:18   #4
hellrazor
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 35
Thanks everyone. Now I can spend hours going through every city and calculating drones and talents .

BTW, is the Prima strategy guide any good? I've read Vel's guide...anything important in the Prima guide that might be useful?
hellrazor is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 18:57   #5
Googlie
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 GaiansACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 MorganACDG3 CMNsACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha Centaurians
Emperor
 
Googlie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 9,541

prolly not. Precious little by way of strategy in it.

9/10ths of it is a regurgitation of the techs, SP's base facilities, units and factions, a page to each.

the remainder is the 20 or so formulae that Firaxis released. Ask any question on these forums and the one of the 2 dozen or so Prima Guide possessors will reply with the formula.

So, IMHO, not worth the outlay

G.



[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited November 28, 2000).]
Googlie is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 19:47   #6
Chowlett
Alpha Centauri PBEM
King
 
Chowlett's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 1,804
quote:

BD = (# bases x 2)/(8 - diff) x (4 + effic) x worldsize




That can't be right, or at least your interpretation can't. You say increasing efficiency increases beuracracy drones - surely not? would it not be more sensible to read it as:

BD = (# bases x 2)/[(8 - diff) x (4 + effic) x worldsize]

?

------------------
The best way to avoid errors is not to do anything - Dr Beardon (Maths)

("Something is worth doing"=>"It is worth doing properly")<=>("Something is not worth doing properly"=>"It is not worth doing") - A truth first expounded by Murgatroyd
Chowlett is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 20:01   #7
Fitz
King
 
Fitz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: & Anarchist
Posts: 1,689
That's not how beaucracy drones work at all. You get one in every base in excess of the warning/limit, in the extra bases (determined by founding order). If you exceed the limit by twice as much, you get two in those excess bases, etc.

The limit of bases is

BL = (8-dif.)*(4+eff.)*(worldsize/2)

or, for transcend normal eff, and huge world, 3*4*1.6/2 = 9.

Assuming he was on a standard planet:
(8-5)*(4+7)*1/2 = 16. So every base after the first sixteen, up to 32, gets one extra drone, based on faoundation date. If you had more than 32, those bases would get two extra drones, etc.

Remember, counguered cities can screw up which bases get the drones, since their foundation dates may fit into your original bases in wierd places.

As a side note, the f4 command lists bases in foundation order. That's why, if you conguer HQs, they appear at the top of the list right below your original HQ.

Fitz is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 22:10   #8
Hawkeye_td
Settler
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 8
Wait, you're trying to tell me that there is a difference between the male and female icons for drones, workers, and talents?

Is this true!?
Hawkeye_td is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 22:30   #9
Googlie
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 GaiansACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 MorganACDG3 CMNsACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha Centaurians
Emperor
 
Googlie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 9,541
yup - look at the drones in a city when you put a psych increasing facility in the build queue.

Surly drones (males) become smiling drones (but still red faced drones) - sullen workers become smiling workers and straight faced talents become ear-splitting grinning talents.

(of course the reverse happens when you take out of the queue that hab complex in a size seven base...
Googlie is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 22:36   #10
Googlie
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 GaiansACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 MorganACDG3 CMNsACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha Centaurians
Emperor
 
Googlie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 9,541
and Chowlett - you are correct - I inadvertently left out the [ and ] wqhen copying the formula - it does make a huge difference.

Prima does record the formula as:

BD = (# bases x 2)/[(8 - diff) x (4 + effic) x worldsize]

And Prima does give the variations for conquered bases, but it just cluttered the post and hellrazor only said he has slave factions, not conquered bases, so in the interests of a shorter reply I omitted the details

(and most of the formulae that prima print out can be found in the datalinks "concepts" and "advanced concepts" anyway - but haven't looked for this one, though, I admit.

Googlie
Googlie is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 22:40   #11
Googlie
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 GaiansACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 MorganACDG3 CMNsACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha Centaurians
Emperor
 
Googlie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Palm Springs, California
Posts: 9,541
One more

Fitz - here's the formula directly from conceptsx.txt:

#ADVCONCEPT13
{Bureaucracy} is the addition of extra Drones because a faction has
exceeded a certain number of bases. The bureaucracy formula works
as follows:
^
^^BaseLimit = (8 - Difficulty) * (4 + Efficiency) * MapRoot / 2
^
^Where:
^Difficulty = Player's difficulty level (0 - 5)
^Efficiency = Social Engineering $LINK rating.
^MapRoot = Sq. Root of # Map Squares / Sq. Root of 3200.
^
For each base a faction builds in excess of this number, one additional
drone will appear at some base somewhere in the colony


The formula seems to be the same as Prima (expressed differently) and you have, but I'd be interested to see from where you deduce that the bases are "droned" in order of founding - conceptsx.txt seems to say "some base" which would seem to corroborate prima's random comments

Googlie

[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited November 28, 2000).]
Googlie is offline  
Old November 28, 2000, 22:54   #12
Fitz
King
 
Fitz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: & Anarchist
Posts: 1,689
That corroborates mine. Maproot = 1.6 for Huge, 1.0 for standard. My formulate is every thing in the [] of your Base Drones formula. That means that Prima is saying the formula for number of Base Drones is equal to the number of bases divided by the base limit on the beauracracy warning(the 2 on the bottom of the BL formula has been transfered to the top in the BD formula).

This means that you get 2 drones when you are at twice the Base limit, and 1/2 when you are at one half. This is obviously not quite accurate, but close to what I am saying, for a specific base. After you pass the Base Limit, you get one extra drone, after you pass twice the limit, you get two extra drones, in each base past that limit. The Prima guys obviously didn't understand quite what was happening.

The reason conquered bases clutters things is exactly as I specified earlier. Since these extra beuacracy drones only appear in bases past the limit, and the order of bases are counted in is year they were founded, when you conquer a base that was founded earlier than some of yours, beauracracy drones may appear in bases that were yours when they wearn't in those bases previously.

And I don't think female/male drones make a difference. Every time I make a change to my citizens that affects the the number of talents/workers/drones (ie psych) they appear to be randomly generated as male/female icons of workers/talents/drones. That appears to be a PC thing, not an actual game mechanics thing. Superdrones are another matter (the ones with bright red, as opposed to dark red, backrounds).

Try substituting the superdrones converted to regular drones, instead of male to female, into Tau Ceti's explanation, and he probably has it right.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited November 28, 2000).]
Fitz is offline  
Old November 29, 2000, 01:55   #13
Enigma
Prince
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Midland, MI, USA
Posts: 633
When playing the Morgan 2000 challenge I was quite annoyed by the way that psych is allocated. It seems that all of my psych is wasted on converting drones straight to workers, where it would be better used after the facility bonus is factored in so it converts workers to talents instead, normally the facility bonus is more than enough to eliminate drones from the final base population.

Even with 100% psych allocation and all sorts of nice facilities (treefarm/hybrid/research hospital/ rec com) I was having an impossible time getting a few of my odd bases into golden age even when converting 1/2 of the population into empaths. The HGP is really essential for that...

The cap on psych spending(per base) is quite detrimental to the effects of an empire wide psych allocation: even your high energy captiol bases will have to work to get the golden ages, despite their extra energy...
Enigma is offline  
Old November 29, 2000, 12:07   #14
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
quote:

Originally posted by Fitz on 11-28-2000 09:54 PM
And I don't think female/male drones make a difference. Every time I make a change to my citizens that affects the the number of talents/workers/drones (ie psych) they appear to be randomly generated as male/female icons of workers/talents/drones. That appears to be a PC thing, not an actual game mechanics thing. Superdrones are another matter (the ones with bright red, as opposed to dark red, backrounds).

Try substituting the superdrones converted to regular drones, instead of male to female, into Tau Ceti's explanation, and he probably has it right.


This is a very common mistake I have seen. The background color of the drones is completely irrelevant: superdrones are male and normal drones are female. However, this only applies in the psych listing you get when you click on the rightmost tab (I forget its name) in the city display window. In the standard listing at the bottom of the city display, males and females are random (in SMACX - they are always female in SMAC). However, it is fruitless to use that one to check the effects of psych because of the fake drones bug.

Hawkeye_td: There is only a difference between male and female drones (not workers or talents), and only in the psych listing as I said above, and only for the purposes of psych energy allocation. Police and drone-reducing facilities are just as effective against male drones as against female drones.

Tau Ceti is offline  
Old June 23, 2001, 07:40   #15
cbn
Prince
 
cbn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:22
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Newfoundland but soon to be Calgary, Canada
Posts: 960
Bump for Ned and WE to see if this stuff corroborates the theories they are discussing
cbn is offline  
Old June 23, 2001, 10:52   #16
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
CBN, Thanks. It is amazing that so many have so positively stated how b-drones are handled with the information being wrong.

The one thing I agree with is the conversion of super drones -> drones -> content -> talents is at a cost of two pysch each.

But as to a formula for number of drones, it has to be extremely complicated, unless you just discuss the number at the boundary between warnings. There each base has one drone for each warning.

Ned
Ned is offline  
Old June 25, 2001, 20:06   #17
Fitz
King
 
Fitz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: & Anarchist
Posts: 1,689
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
It is amazing that so many have so positively stated how b-drones are handled with the information being wrong.
Especially me. I was absolutely certain they were appearing in base order, and only in bases above the limit.

However, I'm still not sure I agree with Tau Ceti's comments on male/female drones. However, I was definately looking at the line at the bottom of the base screen, so he could be correct.

Could anyone explain to me the 'fake drones' bug. I don't think I've ever experienced it, but only because I've never noticed drone riots without drones being present. Or am I misunderstanding and it is the other way around (no drone riots with drones present)?
Fitz is offline  
Old June 25, 2001, 22:44   #18
WhiteElephants
King
 
WhiteElephants's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 1,074
Fitz -- the fake drones thing shows more drones than there actually are in the base screen. I've noticed this when I use a faction like Yang who uses his police rating a lot. I also noticed this when I was running my bueracracy tests with Miriam who wasn't using a high police rating, but used one scout as police. My best guess is that it has to do with the police rating or efficency, maybe both. It wouldn't suprise me that Yang, being immune to efficiency, somehow shows more drones than he actually has.
WhiteElephants is offline  
Old June 26, 2001, 12:34   #19
johndmuller
Alpha Centauri PBEMACDG Peace
King
 
johndmuller's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
Originally posted by Fitz
As a side note, the f4 command lists bases in foundation order. That's why, if you conguer HQs, they appear at the top of the list right below your original HQ.
Fitz,
IIRC, if I sort the bases by some other criteria by selecting one of the "best base in >category<" bases/categories - lower left of F4 screen, best bases tab - they stay in that order until I select a different sort (opening/closing the F4 &/or base screens and new turns notwithstanding). None of those selections lead to the bases sorted in the age order, so I've never been able to get that back once I've changed it. Do you know of a way to get them back in that age order again?

If the sorting really makes a change in the fundamental order of the bases, it could have other effects too, particularly when you have a prototype being produced in more than one base (where one can make sure that the lagging base comes after the first-to-finish base in the turn order so as not to waste mins when the cost goes down after the proto), and maybe even in drone allocation (although I don't recall having unexpected drone events when I've sorted that list).
johndmuller is offline  
Old June 26, 2001, 20:05   #20
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
Fitz: You disagree with good reason. According to the PBEM game turn I just finished, my (quite adamant) statement above is wrong. The superdrones were bright red, with male/female status being random.

I was quite certain that I had seen it the other way around in at least one game some time, but until I can recreate it, I must withdraw my assertion. I do, however, believe that it is gender that matters in plain SMAC.

johndmuller: The way the bases are currently sorted does not affect the order in which the game processes them. That is always done in order of date of construction, and you can get that order back by clicking somewhere in the blank area of the "frame" around the F4 screen box.
Tau Ceti is offline  
Old June 26, 2001, 21:41   #21
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Tau Ceti, In an earlier post in this thread, I beleive you said that there is a limit to psych useage and that it is twice the base size. I wonder where you got this? What I see is more like three times base size less two. This permits a transcend base with no bureacracy drones to be placed into a state of Golden Age using psych alone. For example, assume a size 14 base, 13 drones and one content (no b-drones). To place this base in GA, you need 7 talents and 7 contents. To get there from the stating point to GA, you need 13 x 2 psych to turn all the drones to contents, and 7 * 2 to make 7 contents into talents. This is 26 + 14 = 40 psych, which is three times base size - 2.

In other words, if you have even one b-drone, you cannot get the base into GA using psych alone assuming the limit is as I described it.

Do you agree with the above?

Ned
Ned is offline  
Old June 27, 2001, 11:28   #22
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
The 2 * base size limit is just experience, plus it is what everyone else has had to say on the subject until your post. Considering that over probably hundreds of games, I have never seen a single deviation from it, I am quite confident that it is correct.

While the calculations in the rest of your post (excepting the limit) seem to be correct, it is a fairly weird situation in that you do not take into account any drone-reducing facilities. If you look at the algorithm I posted in the second post in this thread, the game creates talents second, after removing superdrones but before removing ordinary ones. So all you really need is to get 7 talents. For your example, that takes (6 * 4 + 2) = 26 psych, 2 under the limit of 28. The remaining 7 drones will need to be taken care of with facilities or police (6 drones if you have the last 2 psych as well). So it is not impossible to get a GA even with the stricter limit.

However, it is impossible to get it without the HGP/a Paradise Garden/Clinical Immortality/the Peacekeeper bonus if you have even a single superdrone in the base.
Tau Ceti is offline  
Old June 27, 2001, 17:10   #23
Ogie Oglethorpe
ACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
Ogie Oglethorpe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 3,521
Tau et. al.

The 2* base size thing is probably accurate. As the SMAC engine was revamped from Civ2 the max luxuries applicable in that game was 2* city size. I would be very surpised if it was not also the case in Smac(x).

Og
__________________
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Ogie Oglethorpe is offline  
Old June 27, 2001, 20:13   #24
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Thanks Tau Ceti and Ogie. I still think there is something wrong with the 2 * base limitation on psych "usage."

Assume the following:

13 ordinary drones and 1 content (i.e., no b-drones), a rec commons, a research hospital and a holo in a size 14 base. The facilities convert five drones to content leaving 8 drones. It takes 16 psych to convert these 8 to content. It takes another 7 * 2 or 14 psych to convert seven contents to talents. The total pysch necessary, even considering facilities, is 30. If the limit is 28, 14*2, we are 2 short. This indicates that it should be impossible to get a size 14 base into GA using psych and facilities alone at the transend level. However, this does not correspond to my memory.

I'll conduct an experiment.
Ned is offline  
Old June 27, 2001, 21:03   #25
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Tau Ceti and Ogie, You're right. There is a limit on the use of psych at 2 times base size. However, the conversion to talents is not what I expected.

I started with Santiago on Transend, no police units, no facilities. 1 content, 13 drones.

I added a rec commons, a holo and a research hospital.

I did not get 5 additional contents. What I got was 2 talents and one additional content.

I then added psych - 86 in total.

This yeilded a net of 7 more talents for a total of 9. (This is equivalent to 28 psych, or 14 * 2.)

I still had two contents and three drones.

I then changed to Police State. Santiago now had +3 police. I added 1 police unit. This unit converted the three drones into contents. We now had GA.

I then converted to Free Market. The three drones, as expected due to the negative police rating, returned. But even though I had more pysh, I still had the same nine talents and two contents.

Ned
Ned is offline  
Old June 27, 2001, 21:04   #26
WhiteElephants
King
 
WhiteElephants's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 1,074
Ned -- Maybe your forgetting that you usually have a scout in a size 14 base that would act as a police unit further quelling one drone. If that's the case then you would only need +28 psych to turn a golden age.
WhiteElephants is offline  
Old June 28, 2001, 05:22   #27
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
WE, Actually, I did try police. See the note above on the results from the SE. The apparent problem is that appears to be that the algorithm converts the psych and facilities to nine talents when you only need seven, but leaves three drones that cannot be pacified solely by using just one scout or a police scout. If you are in FM, there is nothing you can do except convert at least one, maybe more, workers to specialist. Ned
Ned is offline  
Old June 28, 2001, 06:58   #28
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:52
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
Ned: Your results are quite strange. Apparently, the Rec. Commons, Hologram Theatre and Research Hospital gave you two talents and one worker instead of five workers? If so, that must be a bug. Are you sure you did not accidentally put in a Paradise Garden instead?

As for your calculations, you get the order wrong. The game does not convert all drones to workers first; it converts them directly to talents. So to get 7 talents, you need 26 psych (2 for the existing worker, then 6 * 4 for 6 drones), leaving 7 drones. Then facilities kick in, but it is rather hard to pacify 7 drones with facilities. Commons/Hologram/Hospital/Nanohospital take care of only 6. So apparently, without using SPs, police or specialists, you need to have Nanohospitals and 28 available psych to get a GA in your size 14 city.
Tau Ceti is offline  
Old June 28, 2001, 12:50   #29
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Tau Ceti, No, I did not use a Paradise Garden. You might try the experiment yourself just to verify. What I did is start a game, move the unit out of the city, increase its population to size 14 and added forests all about.

Checking drones: 1 content, 13 drones.

I then added rec commons, a holo, a research hospital, a tree farm and a hybrid.

Checking drones: 2 talents, two contents, 9 drones

Set to all Psych - 86 total

Checking drones: 9 talents, two contents, 3 drones

Added techs for police state and non leathal, and created a police scout in the base. Police, with Santiago was +3.

Checking drones: 9 talents, five contents.

If I read your post correctly, pysc converts drones to talents directly. What I take from this is that pysch operates on drones first, and converts them to talents at a cost of four before going on to the next drone. This seems confirmed by the experiment.

Thus the wierd part of this experiment is the conversion of two drones to talents by facilities when they are supposed to only convert drones to contents.

I welcome others to try the experiment to see if they can locate whether the experiment was wrong or, as is often the case, the Datalinks is wrong.

Ned
Ned is offline  
Old June 28, 2001, 13:45   #30
johndmuller
Alpha Centauri PBEMACDG Peace
King
 
johndmuller's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:52
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Posts: 2,108
Ned
Interesting that the TF/HF had no effect on the bottom line, only in the intermediate state. I guess that is because their benefits are in the form of Psych (whereas the other facililties act more directly on the drone situation) and when you overkill with the Psych allocation you are basically using the maximum whether it comes from the Psych allocation or the TF/HF contribution.

I am considering the theory that (regular) drones and talents cancel each other out and it doesn't matter how they look on the base display, for example, whether it is (2 talents and 1 drone) or (1 talent and 1 content/worker) it doesn't matter, you are a net +1 in happiness.

In your case, you go from -13 at the beginning
to -7 after RC=+2/HT=+2/RH=+1/TF+HF=+1
to +6 after adding Psych=+12 (the TF+HF apparently was worth +2)

In the previous example (without the TF/HF), you go from -13 at the beginning
to -8 after RC=+2/HT=+2/RH=+1
to +6 after adding Psych=+14

Then you added 3 police to make it +9.

According to my theory, if you had added just 1 police effect, you would have a +7 which should get you a GA since you have a size 14 base, irrespective of whether or not it shows drones in the display. Presumably, the display would show 2 drones in your example, but 2 of them would be netted out by your 2 extra talents beyond what you need for GA.

John
johndmuller is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 21:52.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team