Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre - Page 4

Arrian · January 9, 2003, 17:56

Erm, Paiktis, OneFootInTheGrave started this thread. His post was not a troll. Shi's post was clearly aimed at you (though IMO understandable given posts you've make in the past re: USA). So whatever, ignore Shi's post. What about the issue raised? Like I said, Axi responded intelligently.

So can you, except you stated that you SUPPORTED those volunteers. Ok, explain why.

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 17:57

I did not. Not really. I was just giving the finger to the trolls that were posted long before I even showed up.

Arrian · January 9, 2003, 17:59

Ah, so you don't support them. You made **** up. Unsurprising.

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:00

I made **** up?

What does that mean?

Is it like make believe or in the lines of "do you want to make **** berserker" of the "clerks"?

Arrian · January 9, 2003, 18:04

You made up your position. In your own words: "I did not. Not really. I was just giving the finger to the trolls..."

What's interesting is that when YOU troll (don't bother denying it: you love messing with the American posters, and calling the Brits gay), if someone had a reaction like you just did, you would call them on it. That's all I'm doing to you.

Do unto others...

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:07

No I wouldn't.

Besides this was pretty much an ambush setting.

Onefoot, posted an honest question he had (OK with a little bit of troll spirit)
then all the little trolls who got slamdunked by me (I dont initiate fights so often I just make others spit blood when they do and that only to just a few sorry asses

) lined up and waited for the lamb to arrive to the slaughter.

So what was best than to **** them up again?

Arrian · January 9, 2003, 18:10

Slamdunked by you?

You don't initiate fights?

Nevermind, Paiktis.

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:10

oh well

Flatlander Fox · January 9, 2003, 18:47

Sava, western propoganda telling me what I saw with my own eyes?

You are obviously blinded by what you want to believe.

Being objective is a skill that is very valuable in real life. You can rant and rave all you want here, but when out in the real world, it's facts that matter.

And the fact is that atrocities did happen, civilians were targeted, and all sides made grevious mistakes in judgement and morality.

If your cousin was a soldier, and he was involved in that conflict, do you think that he would let you know that his side participated in atrocities that are PROVEN BY FACT. If I were him, I wouldn't either. It's a personal decision for him, and I would completely understand him.

Once again, I try hard not to judge a people or country by the actions of a silly few, but am appalled by the people that say these things never happened. And you say CNN spews propaganda.

P.S. There are a few here who I have noticed just post for the "shock value" of their words. Instead of acting your age (12 perhaps), maybe you should try forming REAL opinions, with REAL thoughts behind them, instead of spouting off ideas for the attention.

The Vagabond · January 9, 2003, 18:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
Sava, western propoganda telling me what I saw with my own eyes?

Western propaganda didn't tell you what you saw with your own eyes. It just told you how to interpret what you saw with your own eyes.

Flatlander Fox · January 9, 2003, 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Western propaganda didn't tell you what you saw with your own eyes. It just told you how to interpret what you saw with your own eyes.

Oops, I forgot that part of the deal...

Must be all that goosestepping I do...

Shi Huangdi · January 9, 2003, 20:25

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
The US has killed tens of thousands of people since the begginign of the '90s and is widely recognized by the world as the "barbarian". Your home violence and your total lack of social care is nothing to gloat upon.

You are also the target of terrorists. I don't think you are in any poisition to speak about anything, if you are an american Shi.

US bashing is wild all over the globe and antiamericanism is stronger than ever.

Perhaps you should worry where the next terrorist attack would be and who would die instead of trolling the Greeks.

Your sidetracks are pathetic. The hand of Greece here are red with blood. It is no wonder you so often praise Osama- but Al Qaeda and the Greeks are both clearly people not of the enlightenment but of hatred and violence.

axi · January 9, 2003, 20:27

Do you mind a little (slightly related) threadjacking?

Quote:

And you would be suprised what terrorists do when faced with American military power.

Surrender. Then get piled up inside containers. Then suffocate to death. Then get shot inside the containers, to make "breathing holes". Then die of thirst as they are hauled of to some remote prison. Then get hauled off to the desert. Then get shot. Then get a mass grave. No questions asked.

This is true. This is what happened to more than 1000 Taliban fighters that surrendered in the area of Mazar-I-Shariff last year. General Dostum's men did this, under the guidance of US troops. This is a war crime. The Pentagon refused that Americans had any part in this. That was proven to be a blatant lie. These American soldiers and their officers should face the Hague court, but they won't, you know why. Instead of that, there is a cover up operation underway: the Afghani journalist who revealed this was injured, two witnessed were mysteriously killed and others have been jailed and are under torture.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s586222.htm
http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans37.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanista...776841,00.html
Just saw this on TV.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apart from that, a comment about "spreading the blame". I am not sure Milosevich is as guilty as Mladich or as Tundjman. I am unable to know that for sure, I can only make an estimate based on my news sources and the amount of trust I place on them. Unfortunately, as Orwell has pointed out, we live in a world that one has to make this sort of balancing before accepting a news item, and no news can be assumed to be true with blind faith any more.

What my judgement tells me is that Milosevic (and the rest of them) is more guilty than the Greek media portray him and less than the western media do. However one cannot ever say enough to emphasise the blame that has to go to the Clinton administration, for bombing Serbia. To exclude the winners from every blame is the greatest of immoral deeds, because it destroys the belief of most people to justice and urges statesmen to commit atrocities just because they know that if they are at the winning side at the end, they will be free of any charge.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 20:33

Axi you said something about the US embassy keeping a track of "anti-american" journalists?

Where did you hear that?

Or are you just refering to Eleftherotypia and the "declarations" of Burns at his departure from the Embassy?

Flatlander Fox · January 9, 2003, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by axi

Surrender. Then get piled up inside containers. Then suffocate to death. Then get shot inside the containers, to make "breathing holes". Then die of thirst as they are hauled of to some remote prison. Then get hauled off to the desert. Then get shot. Then get a mass grave. No questions asked.

This is true. This is what happened to more than 1000 Taliban fighters that surrendered in the area of Mazar-I-Shariff last year. General Dostum's men did this, under the guidance of US troops. This is a war crime. The Pentagon refused that Americans had any part in this. That was proven to be a blatant lie. These American soldiers and their officers should face the Hague court, but they won't, you know why. Instead of that, there is a cover up operation underway: the Afghani journalist who revealed this was injured, two witnessed were mysteriously killed and others have been jailed and are under torture.

Things like this did NOT happen in Afganistan. You fail to realize that journalists were behind U.S. forces almost every step of the way during this operation. Something like this would have NEVER escaped the attention of the media. Watching too much state sponsored T.V. again it seems...

Quote:

I am unable to know that for sure, I can only make an estimate based on my news sources and the amount of trust I place on them. Unfortunately, as Orwell has pointed out, we live in a world that one has to make this sort of balancing before accepting a news item, and no news can be assumed to be true with blind faith any more.

I wholeheartedly agree. But eye witness events in many instances are even colored with the person's views. It's hard to be objective, and even harder to be objective in the face of your beliefs.

Quote:

What my judgement tells me is that Milosevic (and the rest of them) is more guilty than the Greek media portray him and less than the western media do. However one cannot ever say enough to emphasise the blame that has to go to the Clinton administration, for bombing Serbia. To exclude the winners from every blame is the greatest of immoral deeds, because it destroys the belief of most people to justice and urges statesmen to commit atrocities just because they know that if they are at the winning side at the end, they will be free of any charge.

I agree with everything said here except:

The bombing of Serbia was justified to stop the killing. The occupation of Kosovo has been somewhat of a failure, only because the Albanian elements there CANNOT be controlled. But it is a success in the idea that innocents are not being displaced and killed en masse.

Now they are being picked off one by one.

(Which is a tragedy IGNORED by the media.)

Sava · January 9, 2003, 20:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
Sava, western propoganda telling me what I saw with my own eyes?

Try using your limited reading skills next time. I said, "I don't doubt your experiences."

And no where did I suggest you were listening to Western propaganda. That's for our American friends who know even little about this situation.

So before you start spouting off insults, try reading what people wrote instead of attacking them.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 21:01

The bombings were not only not necessairy but certaintly aggrevated the situation, not to say they actually produced the crisis.

The mass exodus of Albanians came after NATO started the bombing, is but one example of this.
The 2.000 civilian dead by NATO bombings (in which Greece took no part) are another.

Also bare in mind that a situation very close to what happened to Kosovo later happened in FYROM.

Yet, the approach used by the international community on that one was vastly different than that used in Kosovo.

Which leaves one wondering, why?
What had already been accomplished with Serbia vis a vis NATO so as not to do exactly the same in FYROM given that the two situations were close to be perfect photocopies of eachother?

Flatlander Fox · January 9, 2003, 21:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Flatlander, I don't doubt the experiences you had, but the facts remain. My facts come from relatives living in Serbia. My cousin Dragy was in the army and saw a lot more than you did. I'll believe him. Not some US sponsored propaganda.

You say not to spew insults at you, tell me that you don't doubt the experiences I had, THEN say that the facts that you stated earlier discount what I and thousands of other people saw with their own eyes.

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

VetLegion · January 9, 2003, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by axi

What my judgement tells me is that Milosevic (and the rest of them) is more guilty than the Greek media portray him and less than the western media do.

I think Hague will do a professional job in his case. Besides, the transcripts of the trial are available to all, so each can make his own opinion.

Quote:

To exclude the winners from every blame is the greatest of immoral deeds, because it destroys the belief of most people to justice and urges statesmen to commit atrocities just because they know that if they are at the winning side at the end, they will be free of any charge.

I agree. I can see on my own ****ry, how painful it is to trial the victors. But crime is a crime, it is not safe for anyone to have the war criminals free on the street.

Just one more little thing abotu the article and the book. Both you and paiktis question agenda of this guy. Is it not more worrying to you that there is only one or two people who have courage to speak against the popular opinion. And that only now?

Uniformity of thought is greatest evil of them all

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 22:47

Quote:

I think Hague will do a professional job in his case. Besides, the transcripts of the trial are available to all, so each can make his own opinion.

The Hague is critically compromised by these 2 facts:

_Not everyone is subject to it. (The US, which played the biggest part, clearly isn't)

_It has a clear "mandate" to find Milosevic guitly for two reasons
1) To justify that the NATO's bombings were OK to have taken place (where it was actually a crying out loud violation of any international law)
2) To escape the charade of an "innocent" verdict.

I don't think that The Hague can act independantly since it is both politically and morally compromised, in this issue.

On a foot note
Also bare in mind this: under the law Milosevic has the right to subpoena Clinton, Albright as well as Blair and other leaders, as critical witness testifying material.

They will refuse. By then, it is by all legal standards a mistrial.

Guardian · January 10, 2003, 05:14

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Besides all this means sh!t.

Greece is the president of the EU is the largest investor in most of the Balkan countries and is shaping its own policies there.

Also the EU army will take over FYROM under Greek command in a few months.

So the "shame" of Greece pointed out by one (one!) person looks a bit suspect to me.

In any case, it won't make one bit of difference.

Well, by this logic, if Hitler had ever made it to be president of the EU, there would have been no shame on him either.

And if this is truly your way of thinking, then I don't see how you could ever criticize the US for any reason. Obviously, by your reasoning, the US - being the world's greatest superpower - inherently has the right to do whatever they feel like without a care for the consequences, and anyone who disagrees with that is a troll and a DL.

Riiiight...

Oh, and you talk about ambush setting and how your handle has been used in a large number of posts in this thread... Well, all right. I did say "I can't wait to hear what paiktis22 has to say about this", and the reason why I said that is because you're always so eager to hand out "shame" to others.

For instance, not too long ago, you where describing Norway as one of the "shame nations of WWII". You didn't seem to know what you were talking about then and you don't seem to know what you're talking about now.

You're welcome to prove me wrong if you're able to, but I suspect you'll just call me a nazi collaborator and go back to sharing cool drinks with rapists and murderers.

Needless to say, if that's what you end up doing, I won't be impressed.
-But like I said, you're welcome to prove me wrong if you're able...

Guardian · January 10, 2003, 05:23

Oh, and just for the record, I am not out to place any shame on Greece as a nation.

The shame for what happened in Srebrenica lies mostly on the people who actually did it, but partly also on the world that stood idly by and allowed these atrocities to be commited right under our noses.

For this we should all be bloody well ashamed of ourselves.

Serb · January 10, 2003, 05:44

Hmm... I thought this topic will be about me and what we have here- entire Apolyton vs. one Greeek.

Shame on you, cowards.
Perhaps it's news for you, but many Russian voluntires fought on Serb's side, perhaps even more then Greeks.
Come-on you may bash Russia now.

Serb · January 10, 2003, 05:46

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Hey I'm alone against dozens of trolls and DLs. Of course I'll run.

You are not alone bro.

Let's get them.

Vagabond, Sava

Serb · January 10, 2003, 05:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian
The shame for what happened in Srebrenica lies mostly on the people who actually did it, but partly also on the world that stood idly by and allowed these atrocities to be commited right under our noses.

You mean because world allowed this?

Quote:

We Created a Monster

Albanian terrorists, armed by the West to fight in Kosovo, are destroying Macedonia, says Canada’s former ambassador to Yugoslavia

JAMES BISSETT

When Canadian pilots joined in the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in March 1999, we were told by Lloyd Axworthy and Art Eggleton that the intervention in Kosovo was necessary to prevent the violence there from spreading and de-stabilizing the Balkans. Yet we now know that long before the bombing it was NATO countries themselves that were inciting violence in Kosovo and attempting to de-stabilize that Serbian province. Moreover despite the bombing the violence has spread – in Kosovo itself, in southern Serbia, and more recently in Macedonia.

Media reports have revealed that as early as 1998, the central intelligence agency assisted by the British Special Armed Services were arming and training Kosovo Liberation Army members in Albania to foment armed rebellion in Kosovo. The KLA terrorists were sent back into Kosovo to assassinate Serbian mayors, ambush Serbian policemen and do everything possible to incite murder and chaos. The hope was that with Kosovo in flames NATO could intervene and in so doing, not only overthrow Slobodan Milosevic the Serbian strong man, but more importantly, provide the aging and increasingly irrelevant military organization with a reason for its continued existence.

Is anyone here read article which Paiktis posted on first page?

Guardian · January 10, 2003, 05:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb

Perhaps it's news for you, but many Russian voluntires fought on Serb's side, perhaps even more then Greeks.
Come-on you may bash Russia now.

I'm not bashing anyone who fought on the Serb side, or any other side.

I'm just saying that wrong is wrong, no matter who's side you're on.

GeneralTacticus · January 10, 2003, 05:53

Quote:

Things like this did NOT happen in Afganistan. You fail to realize that journalists were behind U.S. forces almost every step of the way during this operation. Something like this would have NEVER escaped the attention of the media. Watching too much state sponsored T.V. again it seems...

Eh? It didn't escape the attention of the media, that's why it was reported.

Quote:

The hand of Greece here are red with blood.

Take a look at your own crimes before damning those of others.

Serb · January 10, 2003, 05:55

The Justified war my as$. How about this?
http://grid.ecoinfo.ru/webint_eng/ba...ronics.htm#*We are faced with serious ecological catastrophe.

Guardian · January 10, 2003, 06:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb

You mean because world allowed this?

I meant what I said, and I was talking about Srebrenica.

But yes, NATO did many things wrong too.
The point is that "two wrongs don't make a right", meaning you can't legitimate your own wrongdoings by pointing out those of others. If you're wrong you're wrong, and that's all there is to it. Not all things done by Serbs, Greeks or Russians were wrong, just like not all things done by NATO were wrong.

But some things were, and that goes for all of them.

Serb · January 10, 2003, 06:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian

I'm not bashing anyone who fought on the Serb side...

OT: Not so many people fights on Serb's side here. Funny thing- nickname

Quote:

I'm just saying that wrong is wrong, no matter who's side you're on.

Good aproach, but how exactly one coud be absolutely sure that what he see is wrong, and if it's really wrong how he could be sure that it was commited by this exact side of the conflict? Why everyone point on crimes of one side? Why no one talks about worse crimes of the different side, the crimes which were the reasons of whole struggle? Why no KLA bastards in trial today? Why no Clinton, Allbright & Salana in the same cage where Miloshevich today?

The answer is hypocricy and colossal brainwashing campaign.