Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre

[Serb]

Originally posted by Guardian


I meant what I said, and I was talking about Srebrenica.

But yes, NATO did many things wrong too.
The point is that "two wrongs don't make a right", meaning you can't legitimate your own wrongdoings by pointing out those of others. If you're wrong you're wrong, and that's all there is to it. Not all things done by Serbs, Greeks or Russians were wrong, just like not all things done by NATO were wrong.

But some things were, and that goes for all of them.

So what so good was in NATO intervention aside thousands civilians including children killed by NATO bombs and eco-disaster which will afect hell knows how many future generations?
Let's see:
Kosovo is the sacred place for Serbs. The place where their first king appeared, the place where their thousand years old Christian churches located, it's the birthplace of their state. THEIR NATIVE GROUND. They let Albanian refugees in after WW1 and how those guests paid them? After NATO's intervention native Serbian land, one of the oldest Christian sites in Europe become home, sweet home for Islamic radical fanatics such as bastards from KLA. No more Serbs here now.

GREAT F*CKING WORK.

You think you've solved the problem? Bullsh!t.
Hypoteticaly- if bunch of bastards will ever take Moscow and give it to Ilamic radicals, eco-terrorists, brown, red, green, no matter to whom- just to someone who is not Russian- I know how I will educate my future kids. There will be only two goals- to return Moscow and to kill bastards who took it away from us.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Serb

Good aproach, but how exactly one coud be absolutely sure that what he see is wrong, and if it's really wrong how he could be sure that it was commited by this exact side of the conflict? Why everyone point on crimes of one side?

Call it bad luck if you want to, but the Serbs were the ones who pissed us all off by firing at international aid workers in Gorazde and by attacking Srebrenica while it was supposedly under UN protection. I don't know whom I hated the most at the time, the Serbs or the UN who just backed off and allowed it to happen. But I really didn't mind the Serbs being bombed.

When people like Ratko Mladic stood out in public and said things like "No human beings died in Sarajevo, only muslims.", then that didn't help their side either.

[VetLegion]

From this thread, and some other threads, I got a following impression. Corect me if I am wrong.


1. Certain issues in Greece are not questioned. A nationwide consensus exists about them. Political parties win or lose elections over other issues, but these few are treated same across political parties. Such issue was support to the Serbs, maybe also minority rights (98% Greek, remember)


2. Having this in mind, even when Greek free thinkers (tm) (I avoid the term intelectuals, it suggests just a small educated elite) criticize their government, it is always about economic issues, support of NATO or Americans, church issues, or something else.



To support this impression, a few (rethorical?) questions. Were there any media in Greece (in period 1990-1995), that at least sporadicaly 'held' Croatian or Bosnian Muslim side in the conflict. Or a media that reported negatively about Serbs, or gave considerable space to reports of Serbian war crimes? Anything not completely pro-Serbian.

Probably no major media were like that, but maybe a smaller one?

Did any party or group, have such beliefs (that Serbs are mostly wrongdoers in the conflict)? Of what political agenda would they be? Enviromentalists? Communists? Or is it that Party of Completely Crazy Lunatics havent been founded yet?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The bombings were not only not necessairy but certaintly aggrevated the situation, not to say they actually produced the crisis.

The mass exodus of Albanians came after NATO started the bombing, is but one example of this.

Except, of course, that the whole world knows this is completely false. The mass exodus of Albanians was caused by Serbian ethnic cleansing. NATO took weeks to get off their butts and intervene.

...Which makes me wonder about the availability of television sets in Greece, and the impartiality of the Greek media.

At least the Serbs have a good reason to be so ignorant...

[Sava]

Stop believing what CNN tells you to, Jack.

[Jack the Bodiless]

They let Albanian refugees in after WW1 and how those guests paid them? After NATO's intervention native Serbian land, one of the oldest Christian sites in Europe become home, sweet home for Islamic radical fanatics such as bastards from KLA. No more Serbs here now.

GREAT F*CKING WORK.

Except that NATO din't "let them in", they were already there. The Kosovo population was at least 90% Albanian.

To use your earlier analogy: it's as if California and Texas were 90% Mexican and the US federal government were using military force to keep them in the Union.

They would be wrong to do so.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by Sava
Stop believing what CNN tells you to, Jack.

Then CNN must have hired a LOT of actors!

And surely at least ONE of them would have talked by now. Conspiracy theorists don't seem to appreciate just how difficult it is to keep a conspiracy secret.

Let me guess: they were all assassinated by the CIA afterwards, right?

[Sava]

It's not the Serbs' fault that those Albanian terrorists spawn like f**king rabbits. There's like a 10+ children family size and less than 5% literacy among those bast4rds. 20 Years ago, Serbs were the majority. And you accuse Serbs of ethnic cleansing? PFFFT The Serbs gave the Albanians freedom and shelter, and the Albanians repaid them by brutal acts of terrorism in an attempt to steal Kosovo from the Serbs. We kicked Turkish as5 at the original battle of Kosovo, no reason we're going to let some human scum steal our homeland from us.

[Sava]

bah, you underestimate the media's power to not report things There are a million stories in the world, my friend. Apathy is easier than suppression.

[Arrian]

It's not the Serbs' fault that those Albanian terrorists spawn like f**king rabbits. There's like a 10+ children family size and less than 5% literacy among those bast4rds. 20 Years ago, Serbs were the majority. And you accuse Serbs of ethnic cleansing?

Ah, so clearly the Serbs were right to try and "trim" the population back a bit, right?

-Arrian

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Serb
Hmm... I thought this topic will be about me and what we have here- entire Apolyton vs. one Greeek.

Shame on you, cowards.
Perhaps it's news for you, but many Russian voluntires fought on Serb's side, perhaps even more then Greeks.
Come-on you may bash Russia now.

Hey, that one greek can take care of himself.

[Sava]

They were kicking the out of the country, not slaughtering them. Some fought back, the Serbs protected their people. But where's the outcry when the US causes the death of 500,000 Iraqis since 1998 due to sanctions, HUH? WHY DON'T YOU B*TCH ABOUT THAT!

Look at yourself before you judge others you hypocrits.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Sava
less than 5% literacy

Heres' your problem, whats the Serb literacy rate?
Is schooling ethically divided?

[Arrian]

They were kicking the out of the country, not slaughtering them

So ethnic cleansing (or, for a slightly less nasty term, "transfer") is A-ok?

As for the Iraq sanctions, many of us here oppose them, given that they do not work. However, your continued attempts at blaming the US or UN for the people who have suffered due to Saddam's choice of guns over butter are pathetic. The primarly blame remains with Saddam, not the US or UN.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sava
It's not the Serbs' fault that those Albanian terrorists spawn like f**king rabbits.

Seig Heil, Sava. You sound like David Duke.

[DanS]

"We kicked Turkish as5 at the original battle of Kosovo, no reason we're going to let some human scum steal our homeland from us."

I thought you were American?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless

Except, of course, that the whole world knows this is completely false. The mass exodus of Albanians was caused by Serbian ethnic cleansing. NATO took weeks to get off their butts and intervene.

No my little dear the whole world does not know that.

The US just knows that

Serbs=Demons

and that's it.


The one who is in trial is NATO (Greece did NOT take part in the campaign, I cannot stress this enough).




The main reason there were 2000 civilians killed in the bombings and that the soil of that land is poisoned with your bombs of depleted uranium was to give NATO a reason to exist.


Crimes upon crims.

1000s of dead upon dead by US mainly bombs and you wonder why you are the target of terrorists?



Greece helped Serbia when ALL humanitarian aid had been cut off and people were dying from illnesses.

Meanwhile the US/UK tried albanian terrorists and were helping Croatia.


The criminals are well known.

[Bereta_Eder]

And of course the mass exodus started after the NATO murderus and illegal bombins.

Even CNN can't hide that fact.

The only think you know is Serbs=Demons and let's bomb them.


US propaganda was powerful then, it is not now.

[Arrian]

All you seem to "know" Paiktis is that Albanian = Terrorist, and Serbs = heroes.

There are two sides to this.

There was ethnic cleansing going on. Nato intervened (I still remember all the calls for the isolationist United States to get involved: we were reluctant as hell, btw) clumsily. The ethnic Albanian Kosovars, now protected from their Serb persecutors, struck back - and they didn't discriminate between one Serb and another. Nato's attempts to stop this were ineffective. You make it sound like they didn't even try. Not true.

I followed the reporting from Bosnia and Kosovo long after they were no longer front page headlines. They were full of quotes from US servicepeople begging for more some sort of UN police force (trained police, not soldiers) to help create some law and order (in Kosovo particularly). These people were trying to keep things calm, but were failing - there simply weren't enough of them. Serbs were fleeing into Serbia, and those that stayed were virtually under siege. Meanwhile, the KLA began trying to stir things up in the FYROM - and UN patrols were continually trying to intercept them, but many got through due to the size of the border and rough terrain.

But you don't care about the other side, do you? I do. I acknowledge that Nato's intervention was poorly done. I acknowledge that the people we went in to protect ended up essentially turning on us and exacting revenge vs. their former oppressors. You, however, do not acknowledge that "your" side in this did anything wrong. That is the sign of a fanatic.

-Arrian

[Flatlander Fox]

Originally posted by Arrian
All you seem to "know" Paiktis is that Albanian = Terrorist, and Serbs = heroes.

I'm starting to think that this Paiktis is Serbian or Croatian or Muslim and not Greek. Actually he HAS to be, since those are the only people in the world I know of that hate so blindly and completely.

There was ethnic cleansing going on. Nato intervened (I still remember all the calls for the isolationist United States to get involved: we were reluctant as hell, btw) clumsily. The ethnic Albanian Kosovars, now protected from their Serb persecutors, struck back - and they didn't discriminate between one Serb and another. Nato's attempts to stop this were ineffective. You make it sound like they didn't even try. Not true.

We did try to stop the backlash. People died under our watch, and it was hard to stomach. Harder still when you realize that many that died were killed by their neighbors or former friends. The worst was that I had to witness crap like that happening.

I followed the reporting from Bosnia and Kosovo long after they were no longer front page headlines. They were full of quotes from US servicepeople begging for more some sort of UN police force (trained police, not soldiers) to help create some law and order (in Kosovo particularly). These people were trying to keep things calm, but were failing - there simply weren't enough of them. Serbs were fleeing into Serbia, and those that stayed were virtually under siege. Meanwhile, the KLA began trying to stir things up in the FYROM - and UN patrols were continually trying to intercept them, but many got through due to the size of the border and rough terrain.

In these case a tougher tone was needed. We needed to start eliminating KLA elements, but the political situation wouldn't let us. The true tragedy of the whole conflict is that we (NATO) completely misjudged the amount of hatred that the people harbored there.

But you don't care about the other side, do you? I do. I acknowledge that Nato's intervention was poorly done. I acknowledge that the people we went in to protect ended up essentially turning on us and exacting revenge vs. their former oppressors. You, however, do not acknowledge that "your" side in this did anything wrong. That is the sign of a fanatic.

I agree with everything that was said, except for the fanatic part. They aren't fanatics, because they don't have a belief, they have an ideal built upon ignorance. I am somewhat dismayed that many children such as the ones posting here have such strong hatred. I only hope you can fix that with a little more education on the subject.
-Arrian

[Ozz]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The one who is in trial is NATO (Greece did NOT take part in the campaign, I cannot stress this enough).

Why is Greece in NATO? Greece doesn't support it's policies, in fact its betrays intelligence to NATO's enemy
and supplies them with guns and money.

That explains why Greece wants in be in NATO, but why
is NATO allowing them to remain?

[Flatlander Fox]

The idea that the exodus started AFTER the bombings is LUDICROUS. The camp at the border of Macedonia and Kosovo was filled to the brim with people BEFORE the bombings.

Prove me wrong there.

A little note for you young idealists out there:

Just because you believe hard enough in it, doesn't make it true.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by paiktis22
And of course the mass exodus started after the NATO murderus and illegal bombins.

Even CNN can't hide that fact.

The only think you know is Serbs=Demons and let's bomb them.


US propaganda was powerful then, it is not now.

Not CNN. Try again.

The cameras of MANY countries recorded those thousands of Albanian Kosovars streaming across the border in the weeks before NATO went in.

Arguing that this didn't happen is rather like arguing that the Gulf War never happened, or that U.S. planes never bombed the Taliban.

I presume you also believe the Moon landings were faked, or that no aircraft struck the World Trade Center? Far fewer TV companies were involved there, and they were American. Much easier to fake that.

[Flatlander Fox]

Oh, and about those Russian volunteers:

They died just as well as the Serbs who died in the bombing.

Sometimes a cause just isn't really worth it.

My point is that too many people go off with illusions of grandeur and about how their enemy is hated and must be destroyed.

Then when they die huddled in a bunker, and their memories are reviled for what they have done, other misguided idealists bemoan their deaths.

To me, since I am on the side killing the "bad" guys, all of this is o.k.

To many of you who support the "bad" guys, I think you have to look at facts, and not let the powers that be fill your head with hatred.

Hatred sounds flashy, and seems neat to someone who has never seen the byproduct. But it's not, and you have to educate yourself to see that, and seeing it firsthand educates you fast.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Huh... 138 posts .... in a day.. now there is one sensitive Greek here ...

Anyway... to respond to Axi and MarkG who repeated him as they deal directly with the subject.

There are fascist scum in Greece too. They are the descendants of a long line of rightwing paramilitaries, junta supporters, commie-hunters and nazi-collaborators. The western imperialists have always been in good terms with them, so why are they surprised that these people were used as mercenaries by Karadjic e.a.? Do not forget that in the early nineties, Greece was undergoing a vast political transition. The Right came to power once again and they immediately raised the flames of nationalism, to divert attention from the economic crisis and chaos that their neoliberal policies were bringing. The whole "Macedonia" issue was brought out of proportion by the domestic rightwingers and when the war in bosnia erupted, many of them judged that the Serbians would win the war and were eager to befriend them. The logic of "natural allies" in the Balkans predominated in the minds of businessmen, politicians and journalists alike, making us think by the standards of the Balkan wars. But then the war was rather distant and the Americans and Germans were not blatantly involved. By the time of the Kosovo war, the Greek public opinion was 100% anti-NATO, while the official govt kept a stance of neutrality, knowing that even after the Milosevic era, the Serbs would rely as heavily on greek capital as they did before.

Personally I think that Milosevic, Karadjic, Mladic, e.a. are no more guilty than their Croat and Bosnian muslim counterparts, the KLA leaders and the NATO :hawks". Every warmonger is essentially the same and they all have their hands soaked in blood and their records full with crimes. The Greek "volunteers" are then no more guilty than the muslims from all over the world that went to fight with the Bosnians and the KLA. This sort of people are something between the Taliban and the French Foreign Legion: they do it for a mix of profit and doctrine, but they are not the sort of thing whole nations and governments should be liable about. I bet many american mercenaries have done that and worse, in the service of dictators in South America, Africa and Asia.

What I do not want to be overlooked is the people behind these "revelations" in Greece. A couple of journalists, a notorious neo-liberal politician, an that's that. Their attitude seems really suspect to me, since they pretty much are chastising the entire greek political scene, left through right, for "siding with a bloody dictator", just weeks before a new attack against a "bloody dictator" is going to be launched. Combine this, which is, politically speaking, a troll against the conservatinve right-wing, along with the "anti-terrorist crusade" against the left, because of the 17N persecutions and you will see that perhaps these people are following an agenda. To have everybody here (and specially the media) succumb to the western, predominantly neo-liberal and new-orderish POV, as the govt arleday has (and always will no doubt). There is already a black list of anti-american journalists published, with the support of the US embassy. Propaganga is at ful swing right now and this lobby is planing to own some media of it's own soon. We can't have people throwing rocks at the NATO vehicles, can we?

and markG

how exactly do 100 men("believed" to be of that number) represent an entire country is beyond me....

even more: politicians(but not the greek goverment exactly, it is not referred in the article), the media, the church, all "fanatically" pro-serb(according to the article), and the outcome is 100 "soldiers"(=idiotic, over-patriot volunteers(or "volunteers"))? something is wrong in this equation.....

It is true that 100 men do not represent a country, and that is true but I am suprised that Greeks participated in there at all, let alone had their own brigade, and even worse that they were conisdered heroes at home (well that was implied), furthermore as VetLegion said nothing seems to be done to find them or do anything about this at all. OK... you can say that they were paramilitary as they were still there seem to be no official response to it just ignorance which is at least strange.

And the 100 or so soldiers were just a part according to the article (aside to the church/state help, ignorance, like weapons delivery etc... but that is not really the issue what was done was done) the point is that the official line seems to ignore all that and go along quitely. That is at least suspect. As Vet said Greece is not Afghanistan and you wouldn't expect Greeks to behave like mujahedeens who came to support the muslims in Bosnia, let alone to call them "infidel Turks" in the media . Ok I am only basing this on the article but overall silence of the official Greek line is weird on all that.

And as this discussion inevitably slides into the debate about the war in the Balkans... just to point out after 4 years in Croatia and Bosnia... two years of peace what do you think that Serbs would have done in Kosovo. Looking at Croatia an 1/3 of the country or Bosnia and 80% of the country that Serbs held at a point in time - all other ethnicities were either expelled or killed. So no that the Kosovars could expect anything else, plus it already started to happen before NATO interwened in Kosovo.

If you ask me NATO should have interwened in 1992 to stop the war and not in 1998 to finish it. However better late than never. And all of you saying " oh Macedonia is so unstable" we might have has the war in Montenegro (which was close anyway), and Albania, and perhaps again Bosnia + Macedonia if there was no NATO intervention. It is actually the foreign intervention that brought peace and stability to the region that there is today. One of the rarer successes of such alliances lately to produce the stability there would still be war otherwise. But it is not the thread meant for this discussion that Paiktis successfuly involved in.

As for Serbs of Kosovo... after discriminating the Albanian population for years that started when Tito died (1980). The first "than communist" sorting out of Albaniaans in Kosovo was in 1981. They were discriminated more nad more against with time, politically killed as an entity in Yugoslavia by Slobo in 1989, and what do you think would have happend in 1999.

The fact is that Kosovo is historically been Serbian land and that early Serb state was based there, however you can always make such claims... Bosnia was Croatian territory for 400 years and who cares nowdays after 500 years of Turkis occupation, or even now when 49% is controlled by Bosnian Serbs - more than they ever had in history, and more than their populatiuon % ever was in there. But that was the deal. Serbs can claim that they were screwed in Yugoslavia when Albanians were given "free borders" as we were all communist brothers than (the same goes for Fyromians). And disliking so many Albanians there Serbs started to move out from their own will even in Yugoslavia. However in 1990's there was 90%+ Albanian majority there, so can you get away without having Albanian as the language in schools and have albanians on most major political and social positions? Of course not, but Albanians were denied that all the time. And so the typical Balkan disparity came, and culminated during the war. To say that NATO prevented a humanitarian catastrophe of much greater magnitude is true. But having one prevented meant having the other one happen, because you cannot erase 50 years of abuse in a day... that now finally dominant Albanians would discriminate Serbs was a given, but it is the end of long-time lead miscalculated Serbian politic that they can subjugenate the Albanians and that there will be noone to help them because Albania as a state is pretty helpless on its own that culminated in 1999. Evn more so if the Serbs did not go in with the army and the exodus started, there would be no NATO intervention. Milosevic miscalculated at the end, but that was bound to happen. Do you think that Montenegro would be getting so much independance as they are now, if there was no NATO intervention and Milosevic was still in power? No way especially as it seems that some 40% or more of people there are pretty keen staying together with Serbia. Still they are resolving their differences peacefully today.

Amd FYROM.... well that is tough luck, for them is the best in EU... as they will be a mini-Albania in 20-30 years time. Still gives them no right to discriminate Albanians in their own state, but these issues are not easily resolved.

[Bereta_Eder]

Croatian ethnic cleaning and murders are the ones on the table too.

And of course the mass exodus started after the bombings, just check the dates, little brainwashed darlings.

DL Ozz, why is Greece in NATO?

Don't worry we try hard to create the European equiavaltn and tell you all yanks to get the hell back to your holes


Ths US propaganda and UK too cannot touch us. Their supremacy in the media cannot drawn dissenting voices either.


This is a laughable matter of no importance.

NATO is in trial. US.UK are the ones taking the heat.
And Croatians too in the Hague.


This is all a big charade for little poly trolls and DLs.

The real world is elsewhere

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to add a line for Albanian criminals and drugs trade... well corruption on the Balkans is well know, and don't be suprised if in drugs smuggling you will suprisingly find Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs, Boniaks and Croats working together to bring the dope to the continent and to get rich... money brings everyone together. Trust me the Kosovars and muslims are not alone in this, and that can be only be sorted out with the estabilishment of the institutions and jobs for the population otherwise this is one of the rare opportuinites presented for young Kosovars down there. All of the countries in the region at the moment suffer from organised criminal, less developed country is more power organised criminal has... Kosovo is at the bottom of the "developed" list.

[Flatlander Fox]

Once again, you show off your ignorance by running away from the point and saying that the facts are not true.

I find it hard to believe that anyone replies to your drivel.


@OFITG: Excellent post!

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW that infidel turks part in the media is false. but i didnt even bother to correct it because if i start correcting i'd be here till sunday.

Croatia is the one who is hailing mass murderers as heroes.

the lets troll Paiktis since it busted our balls is not applicable in the real world where croatia is taking the heat as is NATO.

dissenting voices will always exist despite the evil empire;s supreemacy in the media.

i dont even bother reading any replies just writing back to your face

[Harovan]

What must I read? Serb has been massacred? And paiktis is involved? Damn you, paiktis, he was such a lovely troll!