Is torture ever justified? - Page 2

TacticalGrace · January 14, 2003, 12:46

I don't see why I should pay 175 gp for bamboo shoots under the fingernails. Is it that bamboo is an expensive resource (in which case use something cheaper) or is it that getting hold of bamboo shoot operators is so difficult these days?

oh and by the way sleep deprevation for 20 turns? In the ancient age that amounts to a very long life! or... the horror... you're allowing the spies to breed and you're torturing the children.

wilbill · January 14, 2003, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Wouldn't it be 'The Civilization 4 "Interrogation" Advisor' screen?

Yes, it would.

wilbill · January 14, 2003, 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by raguil_79

Date with Catherine???? My god, what kind of a savage are you!!

Would Elizabeth ;have been better? Maybe Hammurabi?

wilbill · January 14, 2003, 14:10

Quote:

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
I don't see why I should pay 175 gp for bamboo shoots under the fingernails. Is it that bamboo is an expensive resource (in which case use something cheaper) or is it that getting hold of bamboo shoot operators is so difficult these days?

Well, you can only get bamboo from the Chinese, so it's expensive.

Quote:

oh and by the way sleep deprevation for 20 turns? In the ancient age that amounts to a very long life! or... the horror... you're allowing the spies to breed and you're torturing the children.

But in the ancient age, it takes a torturer (a 1MP unit) 200 years or more to get to the "treatment site".

Master Zen · January 14, 2003, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by wilbill

Would Elizabeth ;have been better? Maybe Hammurabi?

haha.. Hamurabi, now THAT would be scary!

Captured workers might seem like slaves. They should constantly deteriorate their working ability, when that happens you could build Gulags (extra if they are built in artic) to "whip them into shape".

This would be such a un-PC game it would be fiendishly amusing.

Shr3dZ · January 14, 2003, 19:38

Lmao, this thread is funneh, I like yer reasoning behind why different methods of torture cost more than others!

Kingof the Apes · January 14, 2003, 20:18

Quote:

Originally posted by raguil_79

haha.. Hamurabi, now THAT would be scary!

Captured workers might seem like slaves. They should constantly deteriorate their working ability, when that happens you could build Gulags (extra if they are built in artic) to "whip them into shape".

This would be such a un-PC game it would be fiendishly amusing.

I agree, it would be entertaining. For a game where you can really abuse people, torture them, and put them in prisons, Rollercoaster Tycoon is the best.

DuncanK · January 14, 2003, 21:56

You can torture your citizens in SMAC (staple nerves and that thing that the punishment sphere does). It is fun. You interrogate leaders after they are eliminate them, I think you torture them too. Muhahahaha

Master Zen · January 15, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

Originally posted by DuncanK
You can torture your citizens in SMAC (staple nerves and that thing that the punishment sphere does). It is fun. You interrogate leaders after they are eliminate them, I think you torture them too. Muhahahaha

Yeah, I really enjoyed "interrogating" that religious Sister-whatever bi***

too bad you could never actually see it.

DuncanK · January 15, 2003, 02:55

Sister Miriam. She was my favorite leader until the Drones came. I know you just saw them in that sphere getting electrocuted or something. I want to see someone get nerve stapled... Well, maybe not.

bongo · January 15, 2003, 05:21

Can you torture people in SMAC? Cool, I just love being an evil bastard

I even saw SMAC on sale in a computer shop before xmas. Now all I need is the time to play it...

wilbill · January 15, 2003, 11:29

This thread has taken a decided turn toward the wierd. I've never played SMAC and didn't realize it had such an appeal for Torquemada wannabe's. Shouldn't they call it "SMACK!"?

Or maybe a new GW for PTW - "Spanish Inquisition"
Cost 400 shields
Culture = minus 3/turn

VJ · January 15, 2003, 12:07

Quote:

Civ 3 is in fact a very immoral game, IMHO!

Ahh, but only evil commies do such thing!

Master Zen · January 15, 2003, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by DuncanK
Sister Miriam. She was my favorite leader until the Drones came. I know you just saw them in that sphere getting electrocuted or something. I want to see someone get nerve stapled... Well, maybe not.

Maybe there'll be a movie one day and we'll get to see it. I'd put Martha Stewart as Sister Miriam. I'd also put those snotty Mary-Kate Ashley Olsen twins in the movie, if only to see them get nerve stapled forever.

DuncanK · January 15, 2003, 16:45

Quote:

Originally posted by raguil_79

Maybe there'll be a movie one day and we'll get to see it. I'd put Martha Stewart as Sister Miriam. I'd also put those snotty Mary-Kate Ashley Olsen twins in the movie, if only to see them get nerve stapled forever.

ROFL. I'm picturing it.

Traelin · January 15, 2003, 23:27

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
The mods seem to be getting lazy... usually these threads are closed fast.

Hehe nah, I bet they're as equally intrigued as we are.

Maybe they got bets going as to how long the threads will reach 500 posts.

Traelin · January 15, 2003, 23:31

OK since this thread will probably be closed soon anyways, I figured I'd get my hypothetical question in.

Let's just say you're married with children. And let's say someone pulled a Kaiser Sose on your family (kill the children, rape your wife, and all that awful stuff). If the offender got off on a technicality (like searching his home without using Miranda), would you guys consider it wrong to torture him yourself, provided you wouldn't get caught?

Just curious to see what you all say.

Master Zen · January 15, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin
OK since this thread will probably be closed soon anyways, I figured I'd get my hypothetical question in.

Let's just say you're married with children. And let's say someone pulled a Kaiser Sose on your family (kill the children, rape your wife, and all that awful stuff). If the offender got off on a technicality (like searching his home without using Miranda), would you guys consider it wrong to torture him yourself, provided you wouldn't get caught?

Just curious to see what you all say.

Hehe, torturing him for weeks wouldn't even be a good enough revenge for something like that. I would definitely do it.

Being non-religious, and obviously not tied to beliefs like forgiveness and divine justice, I think some people get off very lightly during their lifetime when other people suffer over-proportionately.

Traelin · January 16, 2003, 00:48

Quote:

Originally posted by raguil_79

Hehe, torturing him for weeks wouldn't even be a good enough revenge for something like that. I would definitely do it.

Being non-religious, and obviously not tied to beliefs like forgiveness and divine justice, I think some people get off very lightly during their lifetime when other people suffer over-proportionately.

Yeah I'd like to sit there and be idealistic and say "No, I could never do that." But I have to say that if I could get away with it I'd probably do it. Castration wouldn't be out of the question.

DuncanK · January 16, 2003, 02:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin
OK since this thread will probably be closed soon anyways, I figured I'd get my hypothetical question in.

Let's just say you're married with children. And let's say someone pulled a Kaiser Sose on your family (kill the children, rape your wife, and all that awful stuff). If the offender got off on a technicality (like searching his home without using Miranda), would you guys consider it wrong to torture him yourself, provided you wouldn't get caught?

Just curious to see what you all say.

I can't even say that I would want to say no. Hell, I'd probably do it even if I got caught. No one can say for sure, unless they were in such situation.

DuncanK · January 16, 2003, 02:13

We better stop all this off topic stuff in here punkbass2000 got banned for 48 hours. Look at the thread labeled

Traelin · January 16, 2003, 11:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin
OK since this thread will probably be closed soon anyways, I figured I'd get my hypothetical question in.

Let's just say you're married with children. And let's say someone pulled a Kaiser Sose on your family (kill the children, rape your wife, and all that awful stuff). If the offender got off on a technicality (like searching his home without using Miranda), would you guys consider it wrong to torture him yourself, provided you wouldn't get caught?

Just curious to see what you all say.

EDIT: Oops, what I meant was searching his home without a warrant, or not reading him his Miranda rights.

statusperfect · January 16, 2003, 20:19

Cruelty is never justified. End of discussion.

Cyclotron · January 16, 2003, 20:57

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect
Cruelty is never justified. End of discussion.

Even when many lives depend on the use of cruelty?

statusperfect · January 16, 2003, 21:02

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Even when many lives depend on the use of cruelty?

Yes. Justifying you own wrongs by pointing out the wrongs of others is a dangerous path.

Edit: And self defense is not cruelty.

Cyclotron · January 16, 2003, 21:43

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect
Yes. Justifying you own wrongs by pointing out the wrongs of others is a dangerous path.

Edit: And self defense is not cruelty.

A lot of people believe that torture, while bad, should be available in a so-called "ticking time bomb" scenario where in very little time many people may die and the only way to prevent it is with the information known to one unwilling person. In such a scenario, would you still maintain that torture should not be used, even if it were the only way to save many lives?

cavebear · January 16, 2003, 23:07

That's the exact point I clicked on this thread to make...

Would you torture someone to save a million people? How could you say "no"? But from another view, how could you say "yes"?

But is it the number of people? Is it diferent for a million than 500,000? 50,000? 5,000? 5? 1? Where can you draw the line?

It's the situation. People can only do what they have been expected to do all the days of our existence. You evaluate the situation and make your best judgement. It is not a provable answer, it is not an absolute answer. You just decide as best you can in a given situation.

Ramo · January 17, 2003, 00:35

No. Torture doesn't even give reliable information as the person being tortured would say anything to get out of the situation.

Master Zen · January 17, 2003, 02:42

I think the "ticking time bomb" scenario ocurrs far to little to justifiy the torture as legal. It would not be easy to legislate all the instances where it would be proper. In those remote cases, why not just do the torture "off the record"?

I once read about a guy who was tortured by the inquisition, later said he would have even "confessed to killing God" after what he went through. Now that must have hurt...

statusperfect · January 17, 2003, 06:12

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
A lot of people believe that torture, while bad, should be available in a so-called "ticking time bomb" scenario where in very little time many people may die and the only way to prevent it is with the information known to one unwilling person. In such a scenario, would you still maintain that torture should not be used, even if it were the only way to save many lives?

When torture is the best possible way to protect yourself / your property / your people. In those cases it is self defense. And self defense is a part of nature.

But i can't see a case when torture would be the best possible way. There are better ways of breaking down the willpower of people.