Chinese Discovery America in 1421 - Page 2

Gatekeeper · January 14, 2003, 20:50

It wasn't too long after 1421 that China went into an extended period of isolation, was it? Seems like they cut themselves off from the rest of the world and the admiral of this fleet was made persona non grata or something ...

Gatekeeper

Sava · January 14, 2003, 20:52

I discovered Uranus the other night

Ned · January 14, 2003, 20:54

The thing that doesn't ring true is that if the Chinese had really discovered America, why didn't they set up regular exploratory missions and colonization voyages? It seems more likely that if any Chinese did reach America, they never returned to China.

Sava · January 14, 2003, 20:55

Perhaps they weren't motivated by the desire to exploit and colonize...

orange · January 14, 2003, 21:02

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Originally posted by Ned
The thing that doesn't ring true is that if the Chinese had really discovered America, why didn't they set up regular exploratory missions and colonization voyages? It seems more likely that if any Chinese did reach America, they never returned to China.

Yongle died, and the succeeding Ming emperors found the voyages unprofitable and not in the interests of China. Therefore, they stopped funding people like Zheng He.

Makes sense to me...

orange · January 14, 2003, 21:04

the Chinese didn't benefit monetarily from their voyages nearly as much as the Western Europeans did...I mean one could make up for his startup costs 100 times over sailing from Portugal to say, India...but what did the west really have to offer the East at that point?

molly bloom · January 14, 2003, 22:13

Frankly, this is yet another in a long line of St Brendan discovered the Americas, the Celts settled New England, the Phoenicians colonized Brazil, The Egyptians built Meso-American pyramids tales, told in sailors' bars around the world....What's next? The kraken ate my yacht, with interviews and photos at eleven?

I'm surprised nobody's pointed out that you also get jade in New Zealand, so presumably the Chinese were there too....

I'm all for evidence of hitherto unknown or inexplicable trading links/routes/cultural contacts- but only when they're tenable. Large scale evidence of ocean going (rather than coast hugging) Chinese sailing craft would be welcome. As would plausible linguistic connections between Pre-Columbian societies in the Americas and China in any period. A similarity in sound or meaning between two or three words in separate cultures on separate continents does not make for a pattern of emigration or contact between the two. If that were the case, we have, in the Welsh, one of the lost tribes of Israel....

ravagon · January 14, 2003, 22:24

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Originally posted by molly bloom
I'm surprised nobody's pointed out that you also get jade in New Zealand, so presumably the Chinese were there too....

Greenstone s'il vous plait.

Early Chinese voyages of discovery are hardly unprecedented in any case. There are even (reputed) maps of the Antarctic coastline - with a far greater accuracy than should have been possible with the ever-present ice shelf.

Shadowstrike · January 15, 2003, 00:06

Aside from a lot of dubious claims (species migrations from South America to the CXarribean, Chinese sailors in Greenland, etc), the book does mentions important facts - for instance that of Chinese junk wrecks found near Australia and Nwe Zealand. Its not inconcieveable that the Chinese made it to the Americas, but of course I'd still like to see more conclusive evidence.

Then again, people though Viking sagas of Vinland were a myth until the settlement was located in Newfoundland, so we never know. If Viking longboats could cross the Atlantic, it seems all the more plausible that Chinese junks could as well.

molly bloom · January 15, 2003, 00:26

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Originally posted by Shadowstrike

Then again, people though Viking sagas of Vinland were a myth until the settlement was located in Newfoundland, so we never know. If Viking longboats could cross the Atlantic, it seems all the more plausible that Chinese junks could as well.

You're assuming several things, which you shouldn't- that Chinese junks are/were as seaworthy in open ocean as Viking boats. That Chinese sailors were as familiar with the Easternmost (to them) parts of the Pacific as the Vikings were with the North and West Atlantic.
And moreover- that there were the same driving principles behind the voyages.

The Viking settlement in L'Anse aux Meadows is as yet the westernmost Viking outpost we know of, and is at the end of a series of repeated voyages of emigration and exploration. The Vikings dearly loved to trade- bronze Buddhas from India have been found in Scandinavian grave sites, and Viking voyages for plunder and trade took them to places as far apart as North Africa and Greenland.

Ned · January 15, 2003, 02:00

The hypthetical is that the Chinese fleet sailed across the Southern Atlantic from Africa. But, I have always wondered why it is not more logical for a fleet to head North. There is only a small gap between Siberia and Alaska that could be bridged with only a few hours sailing.

The Chinese certainly had ocean-going vessels of some type. Otherwise, how did Kubla Khan equip a fleet to invade Japan in the 1200's?

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:02

the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

Drake Tungsten · January 15, 2003, 02:06

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the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

If it's such an easy jaunt, why was the Mongol fleet destroyed... twice?

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:07

Protestant Wind?

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:09

it was two typhoons. The Japanese regarded them as sent from Gods, since it saved them from invasion both times...but they did prepare for the second invasion a bit, so who knows how successful it would have been anyway...

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:11

I mean...seriously now...

Drake Tungsten · January 15, 2003, 02:15

The Straight of Tsushima is over a hundred miles wide and has some of the most treacherous currents in the world. The English Channel pales in comparsion, yet we all know how effective a barrier that has been over the years. The fact that Japan has never been successfully invaded in its thousand year history seems to show that the sea journey is more difficult than you make out.

ravagon · January 15, 2003, 02:16

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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

If it's such an easy jaunt, why was the Mongol fleet destroyed... twice?

In case you didn't realize this, they sailed through the Dragon's triangle. Its similar in both shape and function to the one off Bermuda.

The Vagabond · January 15, 2003, 02:21

Even if the Chinese discovered America, they didn't colonize it. Therefore the Columbus Day celebration is not in danger.

Drake Tungsten · January 15, 2003, 02:21

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Originally posted by ravagon
In case you didn't realize this, they sailed through the Dragon's triangle. Its similar in both shape and function to the one off Bermuda.

I knew that!

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The Straight of Tsushima is over a hundred miles wide and has some of the most treacherous currents in the world. The English Channel pales in comparsion, yet we all know how effective a barrier that has been over the years. The fact that Japan has never been successfully invaded in its thousand year history seems to show that the sea journey is more difficult than you make out.

Irrelevant...we're talking about the ability of Chinese junks to reach the Americas.

The question was...

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The Chinese certainly had ocean-going vessels of some type. Otherwise, how did Kubla Khan equip a fleet to invade Japan in the 1200's?

My assertion was that the Chinese didn't need "ocean going vessels" to make such a journey distance wise...they only needed ships which were able to hug the coast, and as Zheng He's voyages show, they certainly had that and then some.

Drake Tungsten · January 15, 2003, 02:25

Don't sweat it, orange; I'm just messing with you. I like to show off my pointless knowledge of geography now and again.

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:27

a fellow geography whiz?

So this is what it's like...when doves cry...:sobs:

Oerdin · January 15, 2003, 02:30

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

The distance is short plus there are a few islands between the Korea and Japan. A person can just island hop until they get to Japan plus the sea of Japan has very calm seas compared to sailing the open oceans.

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:36

hell, using some of those islands, you could build a bridge linking Japan to Korea today!

Drake Tungsten · January 15, 2003, 02:42

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hell, using some of those islands, you could build a bridge linking Japan to Korea today!

There's actually been discussions about doing that, IIRC. It would be extremely expensive, but maybe possible.

orange · January 15, 2003, 02:45

expensive yeah, but certainly possible...

ok, back to the topic: did China discover the New World and circumnavigate the globe or not? Answers people I want answers!

Berzerker · January 15, 2003, 03:13

wernazuma -

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Columbus also overestimated the extent of Asia to the east.Weird conjectures. Piri Reis didn't say, Columbus had a copy of that map. He said he had a map from Columbus!

I got my info from "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings", and I think Hapgood said Piri Re'is claimed Colombus had a map like his, not that he got a copy of Colombus' map. But either way, the Re'is map does show parts of the Atlantic Colombus didn't sail to, so I'm not sure how Colombus mapped the Antarctic and S American (below the Amazon) coastline and gave Re'is a copy a few years later.

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The "nobles" or better said scholars at the University of Salamanca thought in Aristotelian patterns, not in Ptolemaic. They were right, Columbus not, but it wasn't because they had the correct data - most of them thought that our globe wasn't terraqueous, but a combination of a smaller sphere of earth and a larger sphere of water where only a bit of the earth-sphere rises like an island - thus they expected larger distances.

Umm...okay.

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The balance theory has not been invented by modern scholars, but has a tradition that reaches well into antiquity. It is nothing but a myth that the Terra Australis Incognita on Piri Reis map differs much from that on other prior maps and they're not at all "astoundingly accurate", take a closer lookm and compare with you atlas at home, it's not even close!

The only, or should I say, main problem with Re'is map was it showed S America connected to Antarctica. But I've seen a map showing Antarctica as it appears under the ice sheet. The continent is actually divided into 2 sections on the map and that is how the continent appears according to sub-glacial mapping. There is another map showing the Bering land bridge, but you'll have to check out Hapgood's book to see these maps. But why would modern scolars use mythical claims of a southern landmass to balance the world to rationalise these maps?

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Even more stupidities.

Can't anyone here have a civil discussion without insulting people?

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Don't know about the statues

Then why is it a "stupidity"?

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but simlar claims are made every decade and generally don't get far.

It takes alot to change the consensus.

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In 100-200 AD, there were no Aztecs living in central Mexico for another 1000 years.

But the Aztecs did come after the Toltecs who either built or succeeded the builders of Teotihuancan which does date to that period. The Aztecs undoubtedly borrowed artifacts they found from prior civilizations. The Aztec religion contains relics of Toltec religion and presumably, Toltec religion borrowed features of older cultures.

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I don't know in which temple this should have been burried, but NOT in an Aztec temple (Aztecs: 1350-1500AD).

I'd have to check, but I believe it was a temple unearthed in Mexico City back around WWII.

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Anyhow, Nowhere it is said that Quetzalcoatl came across the ocean, Kukulcan supposedly came to Yucatan with ships from the Mexican East Coast .

There are several legends about Quetzalcoatl, are you familiar with them all?

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The Aztecs didn't call the eastern sea "atl". Atl gererally is the word for water and the "tl" is only the ending of all nouns, thus water is essentially "a"! Duh!

It is true the word for water is "atl", but the word for water comes from the eastern sea.

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About that "Votan"-God I haven't heard a single word, although I know a couple of them.

If you see a list of Mayan deities, even one without Votan, you'll see the nature of the language. Votan is unique among the names of their deities.

The Mad Monk · January 15, 2003, 03:34

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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

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the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

If it's such an easy jaunt, why was the Mongol fleet destroyed... twice?

Brave warriors...fine horsemen...sucky sailors.

Sikander · January 15, 2003, 05:28

God, I thought this was another EU forum for a minute, but it's worse than that. Bring on Erik Von Daniken!