Why are Americans so different from the rest of us Westerners

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
Occasionally, however, a couple of people who DO wish to discuss a worthy topic can manage to rescue a troll thread. Just a thought...

-Arrian

Agreed. The contrast with the rest of the West is striking. It is worthy of discussion per se.

As I said in my first post, the average American is extremely proud of his country. This does not seem to be the case elsewhere in the West.

Why?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
We won the lumber fight over lumber before the WTO. Let it go.

No you didn't.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think we differ on which is the minor of the two cases.

Doesn't seem to matter how high you set your duties, either. We ratcheted up production, lowered costs and are now exporting more lumber to the US than we did prior to duties being imposed. 48 US sawmills have gone under since duties went into effect.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by GP
I initially thought that AH actually wanted to discuss the nature of the American spirit. But I see that the thread is just a typical anti-US ***** session.

No I am genuinely interested.

Oh well, go read de Toqueville if you want some more serious stuff to think about Horsie.

Are you saying US consciousness hasn't developed since the mid 19th century Maybe that is the problem.

I will read De Tocqueville. Once I finish this great book I have on the rise and fall of the British empire.

[Vesayen]

"Crime and punishment - The US has a prison population about 10 times larger than the Western average."

The U.S. is also the most populas Western nation.....this is a schewed statistic which is basing it off just the # of people in prison, not # of people per total population.

"Support for Israel - only the United States is 100% behind Israel."

Then the U.S. is the only nation who has the right idea.

"War on Iraq - only Americans claim this is somehow anything but a cynical exercise in power and oil politics."

I think it would be a good idea to go and take out all dictators(though I know there are feasability issues there.....)-I also hate oil.

"Guantanamo Bay - The US is the only Western country that thinks its okay to hold prisoners without legal process."

Bullshit...........blatant and complete bullshit. I might not agree with whats going on there, but other countries do this kind of thing.

"Abortion - the only country where the right to an abortion is under serious threat."

A 100% proven effective method to not get pregnant-keep your legs shut! Abortion is only acceptable if a rape, or the mothers life is in jeopardy, all other cases-close your legs.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Once I finish this great book I have on the rise and fall of the British empire.

Was written by a Roman touring the ruins of London?

[Main_Brain]

I wonder wheter it is related to the Fact that nearly every European country (i.e. except England&Switzerland etc.) has been conquered in last century. That kinda hurts the 'our Nation is superior' Feeling which I see as a Big Part of this kind of Pride?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


No I am genuinely interested.



Are you saying US consciousness hasn't developed since the mid 19th century Maybe that is the problem.

If you see it as a problem... (but leaving that aside). Yes, as I posted before the fundamental roots of the American spirit come from the frontier, the Revolutionary War, the MayFlower etc. If you want to understand how Americans think and why they are the way they are, go back to the earlier roots.

Our break with monarchy and with the old ways was a very different type of thing than the changes that happened in Europe.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger


Doesn't seem to matter how high you set your duties, either. We ratcheted up production, lowered costs and are now exporting more lumber to the US than we did prior to duties being imposed. 48 US sawmills have gone under since duties went into effect.

I disagree with US lumber tarrifs and hope that we can eventually get them rolled back.

[KrazyHorse]

By all means, keep them on. At this rate there won't be a US lumber industry inside a decade...

[Alexander's Horse]

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

I would have thought Vietnam and 9/11 would have punctured the invincibility myth.

[KrazyHorse]

If they really need to get taken down a notch or two then they can try invading us for the 4th time...

Isn't this fun?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
By all means, keep them on. At this rate there won't be a US lumber industry inside a decade...

1. I still want them off as it helps us as an economy to have access to cheaper stuff.

2. I think the tarrifs have a sheltering impact on at least forestry. I would rather see that removed and have the negative impact faster and harder (like my GF likes it.)

[Dis]

I'm ignoring the rest of this thread, too many pages.

But Americans differ because they had to settle wild unsettled areas. There was a huge element of danger settling the american west. And same with the east coast for that matter hundreds of years earlier. this required a different type of person to travel thousands of miles to live in a harsh environment and try to make a life. Even recent immigrants to our country have to have a sense of adventure. They are risking all they own to make it to our fair country. That takes guts. Even if it is just a mexican hoping a fence and walking accross the desert.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP


1. I still want them off as it helps us as an economy to have access to cheaper stuff.

Lumber prices have gone down in the US since tariffs put on because of increased production.

2. I think the tarrifs have a sheltering impact on at least forestry. I would rather see that removed and have the negative impact faster and harder (like my GF likes it.)

See above.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

I would have thought Vietnam and 9/11 would have punctured the invincibility myth.

There is a little bit of jealousy and it served you right in that statement.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
If they really need to get taken down a notch or two then they can try invading us for the 4th time...

Isn't this fun?

We were hoping that you would just sort of fall in love with our charismatic leader and roll over like the Austrians did in the Anschluss.

[KrazyHorse]

I would have thought Vietnam and Bali would have punctured the Australians' superiority myth.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger


Lumber prices have gone down in the US since tariffs put on because of increased production.

Wouldn't they have gone down further without those tarrifs?

It seems very analagous to a chemical equilibrium situation. By LeChatlier's principle, the system reponds to partially alleviate a stressor, but only partially. The equilibrium price will be higher than without the tarrifs. (Although I'm not famillar with the exact structure of the tarrifs. Just assuming that there is a simple tarrif on lumber or what have you that puts Canadian wood at a disadvantage to US wood.)

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
I would have thought Vietnam and Bali would have punctured the Australians' superiority myth.

But Crocodile Dundee kicks ass! Did you see that knife he had in New York?

[KrazyHorse]

Yes, but without that our industry would have gone on as it had. Now they've felt the heat and need to produce more to be more efficient with resources. There are 3 shifts working most places now to lower capital costs per unit shipped, for example...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
Yes, but without that our industry would have gone on as it had. Now they've felt the heat and need to produce more to be more efficient with resources. There are 3 shifts working most places now to lower capital costs per unit shipped, for example...

Did you really need pressure from unfair tarrifs to drive that? Surely just desire for increased profits would have drove efficiency programs?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ned
As I said in my first post, the average American is extremely proud of his country. This does not seem to be the case elsewhere in the West.

Why?

a) Perhaps we have other things to be proud of.

b) Publicly crowing about the status of one's nation - the speaker having contributed virtually nil to the attainment of said status - is a bit silly, when you think about it. It's like wearing your World Championship ring all the time, when in fact you worked in the stadium mailroom.

c) Pride isn't about wrapping yourself in a flag and chanting your national mantra. The rest of us might be more subtle with our national pride than the average American.

d) Pride doesn't mean blind, unquestioning support of your country, regardless of the stupid things it does.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP


Did you really need pressure from unfair tarrifs to drive that? Surely just desire for increased profits would have drove efficiency programs?

Not as much, not as fast. They were looking at extinction...

[KrazyHorse]

Ask US lumber mills why they can't compete when they're coddled by the US gov't...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
A french guy who's rather to the left (can't remember the name, need to look it up) predicted the fall of the Berlin wall within the next 25 years in 1977.

I think that is Emmanuel Todd. I didn't read any of his books, but he predicted many things. Among them, he said the Euro would not exist or would cease to exist by 2004. (I was just saying the name if you're interested by his predictions on the American downfall)

Now, back to the topic.

I think Dissident has a point here : American adventurous colonization has much to do with the differences between the US and Europe, where colonization is not a part of our history (I mean, it's so old it has no influence on culture-making). However, the colonization argument isn't enough, because there are many differences between the US and Canada (violence and healthcare being critiacl differences)

I think the main difference between the US and the rest of the world is that the American values are extremely individualistic. I admit my knowledge of Americans only comes from the OT (I never talked/listened seriously to a born-American IRL), and as such is limited and biased.
But from what I can see here, Americans hate to be forced to do anything for their next of kin.
I'm not saying Americans are evil or egoistic (all my friends who went to an American family were delighted by their openness and their welcome), but rather, they tend not to care for people they don't know. You might say it's only natural, but caring for people you don't know is a societal value in all welfare states. To most non-American westerners, it is only normal that sick people can go to the hospital and get his life saved, even if he cannot afford it. It seems much less obvious in the US.
Also, to most non-American westerners, the police should deal with crime, and self-defense should be used in extreme circumstances only. In America, it seems agreed the individual has the duty to protect himself and his family.

About flag-waving, I don't think Americans are that different from the rest of westerners. I come from another flag-waving country (France, you know, the snotty people who always brag they're #1 in food, wine, diplomatic subtlety, culture, and pretend having the most beautiful language on the planet), and I think this flag-waving comes simply from the fact that American domination is already downing, like the French flag-waving comes from the fact that French domination is gone,and its last elements are threatened. But I agree my idea may be flawed, since I almost see no British flag-waving, while they were the most powerful empire of Earth not so long ago.

It is true America never witnessed the sheer horror of war on their territory, except for the civil war (other wars on the American ground were minor compared to anything the world has known, except perhaps Canada ). Americans don't have the common memory of having their houses burnt, their families slaughtered or fleeing after losing everything they held dear.
If a WTC-like attack had been perpetrated in a European country, I seriously think it would have created less commotion in the population (sure, it would have still caused commotion), simply because losing thousands of people because of human bloodlust is a real part of our memory.
After all, western Europe regularily knows low-intensity terrorism (Basque terrorists, Algerian terrorists in France 1995, North Irish Terrorists in London etc), but they never went to bomb another country, even if it clearly was a safe haven for those terrorists.
However, Russians have horribly suffered during both world wars, and have horribly suffered before and after. Still, they are pretty gung-ho about Chechnya, and might be pretty gung-ho about other territories. So the "Americans never knew war for real" argument isn't completely satisfying.

An extreme difference between America and any other western country that I know of is to describe things as black and white : USSR was the "Evil Empire", the US are currently doing a "Crusade" against "Evil", and this generally leads to an extreme shortsightedness in some matters.
I remember how Europe was depicted as antismeitic because a small part of its population took part to antisemitic demonstrations. I'm sure many people here would not be pleased if European news network depicted all Americans as KuKluxKlans. Still about Israel and Palestine : the European position is slightly in favor of Palestine (if you disagree, please answer in another thread, and pease do not threadjack this interesting thread), but I've seen many people here saying how Europe was Palestine's servant. No analysis put.

Also, I think there is a major societal difference between the US and Europe, which is the division of the population in many communities. In Europe, there is no such thing as a "hate crime", simply because intercommunautary hate isn't as much an issue (but it begins to be a serious issue now in some countries).
I strongly believe the only way America has found for all its people to wave its flag, is to unite them in war. As far as I can remember (from Reagan on), there has never been any moment in the American history when America didn't have an official or semi-official enemy. America needs a Great Evil, a common enemy for its population to unite against.
I'm pretty sure all US politicians had that in mind too when warring or officialy barking.
Candians have a mixity problem too, but try to solve it with active cultural integration (America has long abandoned the meting pot) IIRC.

These are my opinions on why America is so different from the rest of the western world. Please comment

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
Ask US lumber mills why they can't compete when they're coddled by the US gov't...

Basically the less efficient labor mills need to shut down. Coddling keeps them around when they should die.

The net effect is negative on the Canadian mills. Yeah, they are pushed to work harder. But there is only so much harder they can work. And they are merely surving where they could make good money otherwise.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think that is Emmanuel Todd. I didn't read any of his books, but he predicted many things. Among them, he said the Euro would not exist or would cease to exist by 2004. (I was just saying the name if you're interested by his predictions on the American downfall)

Now, back to the topic.

I think Dissident has a point here : American adventurous colonization has much to do with the differences between the US and Europe, where colonization is not a part of our history (I mean, it's so old it has no influence on culture-making). However, the colonization argument isn't enough, because there are many differences between the US and Canada (violence and healthcare being critiacl differences)

I think the main difference between the US and the rest of the world is that the American values are extremely individualistic. I admit my knowledge of Americans only comes from the OT (I never talked/listened seriously to a born-American IRL), and as such is limited and biased.
But from what I can see here, Americans hate to be forced to do anything for their next of kin.
I'm not saying Americans are evil or egoistic (all my friends who went to an American family were delighted by their openness and their welcome), but rather, they tend not to care for people they don't know. You might say it's only natural, but caring for people you don't know is a societal value in all welfare states. To most non-American westerners, it is only normal that sick people can go to the hospital and get his life saved, even if he cannot afford it. It seems much less obvious in the US.
Also, to most non-American westerners, the police should deal with crime, and self-defense should be used in extreme circumstances only. In America, it seems agreed the individual has the duty to protect himself and his family.

About flag-waving, I don't think Americans are that different from the rest of westerners. I come from another flag-waving country (France, you know, the snotty people who always brag they're #1 in food, wine, diplomatic subtlety, culture, and pretend having the most beautiful language on the planet), and I think this flag-waving comes simply from the fact that American domination is already downing, like the French flag-waving comes from the fact that French domination is gone,and its last elements are threatened. But I agree my idea may be flawed, since I almost see no British flag-waving, while they were the most powerful empire of Earth not so long ago.

It is true America never witnessed the sheer horror of war on their territory, except for the civil war (other wars on the American ground were minor compared to anything the world has known, except perhaps Canada ). Americans don't have the common memory of having their houses burnt, their families slaughtered or fleeing after losing everything they held dear.
If a WTC-like attack had been perpetrated in a European country, I seriously think it would have created less commotion in the population (sure, it would have still caused commotion), simply because losing thousands of people because of human bloodlust is a real part of our memory.
After all, western Europe regularily knows low-intensity terrorism (Basque terrorists, Algerian terrorists in France 1995, North Irish Terrorists in London etc), but they never went to bomb another country, even if it clearly was a safe haven for those terrorists.
However, Russians have horribly suffered during both world wars, and have horribly suffered before and after. Still, they are pretty gung-ho about Chechnya, and might be pretty gung-ho about other territories. So the "Americans never knew war for real" argument isn't completely satisfying.

An extreme difference between America and any other western country that I know of is to describe things as black and white : USSR was the "Evil Empire", the US are currently doing a "Crusade" against "Evil", and this generally leads to an extreme shortsightedness in some matters.
I remember how Europe was depicted as antismeitic because a small part of its population took part to antisemitic demonstrations. I'm sure many people here would not be pleased if European news network depicted all Americans as KuKluxKlans. Still about Israel and Palestine : the European position is slightly in favor of Palestine (if you disagree, please answer in another thread, and pease do not threadjack this interesting thread), but I've seen many people here saying how Europe was Palestine's servant. No analysis put.

Also, I think there is a major societal difference between the US and Europe, which is the division of the population in many communities. In Europe, there is no such thing as a "hate crime", simply because intercommunautary hate isn't as much an issue (but it begins to be a serious issue now in some countries).
I strongly believe the only way America has found for all its people to wave its flag, is to unite them in war. As far as I can remember (from Reagan on), there has never been any moment in the American history when America didn't have an official or semi-official enemy. America needs a Great Evil, a common enemy for its population to unite against.
I'm pretty sure all US politicians had that in mind too when warring or officialy barking.
Candians have a mixity problem too, but try to solve it with active cultural integration (America has long abandoned the meting pot) IIRC.

These are my opinions on why America is so different from the rest of the western world. Please comment

1. Very well written.

2. I think that Americans are sometimes less sophisticated in foreing policy as a result of our isolation, monolingualism and lack of serious reverses.

3. I feel at times that Europeans have a bit of a faux sophistication though. I sorta agree with the writer of the Don Camillo books in his take.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP


Basically the less efficient labor mills need to shut down. Coddling keeps them around when they should die.

The net effect is negative on the Canadian mills. Yeah, they are pushed to work harder. But there is only so much harder they can work. And they are merely surving where they could make good money otherwise.

No crud...

But if (when?) you open borders now your mills are going to be facing some badasses up north, in addition to the sharks you've drawn in (Asian and Euro) with the scent of a protected market for the taking...

[cia]

Nicely put Spiffor.
Americans are in general ignorant about the rest of the world because they have the ability to do so ( or at least they think they do). The average person on the street quite often can't tell you who the National Security Advisor is, and has no idea their company they work for probably gets many of its goods from overseas. I view it as a combination of poor general education followed by a general contentedness.