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Old January 16, 2003, 05:19   #31
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alright... here goes my venting on vegetarianism and animal rights activism... which I consider two closely related topics:

Generally, I think that eating anything is fine in moderation. Too much of anything can and probably will be harmful.
Most health problems related to eating habits are a result of an unbalanced diet - too much of one thing, and not enough of another.
Obviously meats provide a great source of protein. And I don't know the medical reasoning behind it (but I think its related to the type of proteins found in meats), but do others notice the overall complexion of true die-hard vegetarians is simply pale?
I view going vegetarian as an extreme, and ironically a health risk.

As far as the treatment of cows go... obviously anything to increase the living conditions is good... but it will be balanced against cost. In my view they "are just cows."

Probably the most humorous occurance with this issue however are those that speak for the rights of the cows as their reason for going vegetarian. Speak out for the cows, but use your shampoos and cosmetics that use animals for testing, relax in your leather sofas - apply those special oils extracted for various animals to your stylish leather seats in your car and your leather jacket, etc., etc.... hipocrits. As I said before... they are just animals. Some animals we use to make everyday things - and that is their purpose as far as I am concerned.

The one issue I am equally conerned about is the pollution associated with the larger farms where livestock for butchering are raised. More research into limiting this, and its full impact on the environment need to be done - without pressure from any political activists.

Finally - some "vegetarians" will still eat fish. Do people think of fish as lesser animals or are the conditions in fisheries supremely better than that of cows for the fish? Maybe its just because fisheries don't pollute in the same way... And the other animals that are caught with mass fishing exercises in the oceans, what about them? Bah - perhaps its just because popular opinion is that the meat of fish is particularly healthy. I am not saying it isn't - but how many food studies have new results over the years about how much they impact your diet and how? Once again... eat it in moderation.

I know numerous people that are vegetarians. I've been to lunches and such with these individuals - and frankly - I feel like I am being judged by each and every one of them for enjoying my ham or turkey sandwich, etc. The conversation usually begin with them either explaining the amount of fats in some meat I am eating, or the wonderful nutritional value of only eating vegetarian has... They'll explain that, and then sya something like: "Take your ham sandwich for example..." The conversation is usually unavoidable at a lunch with a vegetarian as well - as they get real specific with their meal order with the waiter - and then they feel the need to explain to everyone else in the group their reasoning.
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Old January 16, 2003, 05:46   #32
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My thoughts about vegetarianism and vege-food:

Once I dated a girl who was a vege like Osweld (eats fish). Going to a restaurant sometimes could be a problem, because she would start picking on me if I ate something else than vegetables or fish. So I could say she was "forcing her wievs" in a mild way. And that was a bit annoying.

Vege-food can sometimes taste like water, but usually it is quite delicious. At the cafeteria of my office I can pick one of these: meat-meal, soup-meal, vege-meal or special salad. I must say I very often choose the vege-meal, because they are generally always edible
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Old January 16, 2003, 06:04   #33
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I don't have anything against people that think that vegetarianism is good for their health. I have no love for the damn animal liberationists, though. I wouldn't force feed them meat or anything ( ) but I think that they're in the wrong, and if they dare say something to me, I'll be very ****ing pissed off.
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Old January 16, 2003, 07:58   #34
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And how about the way they treat those poor, defenseless plants? Left all alone burried in the dirt, with no protection from th elements, with people dropping manure on them, and then, in the prime of their lives, murderers with sharp tools come along and cut their fragile little bodies to pieces. It's inhuman!


Oh, and has anyone thought to ask the cows what they want? Maybe they would like furniture, air conditioning and cable tv. Would that qualify as decent living conditions?

Seriously, though, I do agree with what people said about growth hormones and antibiotics. I think this is one case where more doesn't mean better. We could all benefit if there was less, healthier meat on the market. And when I say healthy I don't mean low-fat, but coming from a healthy animal.
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Old January 16, 2003, 08:02   #35
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And how about the way they treat those poor, defenseless plants? Left all alone burried in the dirt, with no protection from th elements, with people dropping manure on them, and then, in the prime of their lives, murderers with sharp tools come along and cut their fragile little bodies to pieces. It's inhuman!
I've heard similar stuff many, many, many, many times.
My answer is always the same: Plants don't have brains.

Quote:
And when I say healthy I don't mean low-fat, but coming from a healthy animal.


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Vege-food can sometimes taste like water, but usually it is quite delicious.
Water IS delicious (at least in Finland... )
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Old January 16, 2003, 08:13   #36
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About vegetarism.

It's far from healthy to children. There are several young girls (ages 9-14), who try to be vegetarists. Girl at that age rarely eats sufficiently. And without enough protein & fat (which you get from meat products easily), those girls tend to become undernourished. And that's not good thing during teenagehood...
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Old January 16, 2003, 08:37   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by aaglo
About vegetarism.

It's far from healthy to children. There are several young girls (ages 9-14), who try to be vegetarists. Girl at that age rarely eats sufficiently. And without enough protein & fat (which you get from meat products easily), those girls tend to become undernourished. And that's not good thing during teenagehood...
Maybe they can get jobs as models Providing they still can stand that is.
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Old January 16, 2003, 08:39   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuomerehu

I've heard similar stuff many, many, many, many times.
My answer is always the same: Plants don't have brains.

I meant that as a joke.

And to think I just sold my flamethrower!
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Old January 16, 2003, 09:51   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by aaglo
About vegetarism.

It's far from healthy to children. There are several young girls (ages 9-14), who try to be vegetarists. Girl at that age rarely eats sufficiently. And without enough protein & fat (which you get from meat products easily), those girls tend to become undernourished. And that's not good thing during teenagehood...

It can be healthy, but developing children and pregnant women would need to take special care in what they eat, and make sure they have a balanced diet. Same goes for non-vegetarians, too. Alot of kids are obese these days from eating so much fastfood.
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Old January 16, 2003, 09:55   #40
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Osweld is right. It depends. I support eating meat because I like it and so do many other people.
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Old January 16, 2003, 10:02   #41
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Alot of kids are obese these days from eating so much fastfood.
And candy. And potatoe chips (or did someone call them "crisps").

Oh, sorry, In the previous post I meant "vegans" (not people-from-vega, but people-who-eat-only-plant-products). So no dairyproducts.
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Old January 16, 2003, 10:06   #42
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no cheese?!?!?! thats insanity!
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Old January 16, 2003, 10:09   #43
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Yep, IMHO vegans are insane.
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Old January 16, 2003, 10:24   #44
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I don't care about health vegans ( if they really eat healthy ). What bothers me are the animal liberationist types. (see avatar: from the PETA kids' site. do you think that this is an appropriate pic for kids? )
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Old January 16, 2003, 10:28   #45
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Hehe... your avatar looks like from a Mad-cartoon . Ronald making burgers...
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Old January 16, 2003, 11:49   #46
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"Not enough protein" is a myth. The human body requires very little protein to live on. If anything, most people eat way too protein, which damages the kidneys and gastro-intestinal tract. You can also get plenty of protein from non-meat sources.

I would like to be a complete vegetarian, but my metabolism burns so fast, I almost feel the need to eat heavy carbs and meat so I don't get hungry an hour later.
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Old January 16, 2003, 11:53   #47
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Alot of kids are obese these days from eating so much fastfood.
Alot of kids are these days ignorant pleibiji-morons which should be converted to energy via combustion.

Quote:
"Not enough protein" is a myth. The human body requires very little protein to live on. If anything, most people eat way too protein, which damages the kidneys and gastro-intestinal tract. You can also get plenty of protein from non-meat sources.
Hmm, I partly agree.
Veggies should check that they get enough Fe.
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Old January 16, 2003, 12:11   #48
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Fe as in iron??

I live on non-meaty substances and I NEVER, omg never eat tofu or fake meat and stuff, it's just plain disgusting... I even wonder if it's edible or not

Btw I don't think vegetarians talking what's so good about veggie and what's bad about meat is necessarily imposing their views on you...

It's not like you are forced to quit meat, some just try to convince you.. I've never seen any veggie force their views on anyone as well!
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Old January 16, 2003, 12:12   #49
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I've certainly met vegetarians who were condescending and patronizing, but never any who were evangelistic!
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Old January 16, 2003, 12:18   #50
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Fe as in iron??
Yeah, wasn't sure about the correct term (I know that fe is iron, but... erm)

Quote:
omg never eat tofu or fake meat and stuff, it's just plain disgusting... I even wonder if it's edible or not
Genetically edited soybeans can be pretty good in replacing meat if they're made properly.
And they're 4-5 times cheaper (at least here)
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Old January 16, 2003, 12:54   #51
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
(then again North East college campuses have many PETA members).
I know Rutger's bad, but didn't know it's that bad.
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Old January 16, 2003, 12:55   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuomerehu
Genetically edited soybeans can be pretty good in replacing meat if they're made properly.
And they're 4-5 times cheaper (at least here)
What the hell? GM? Who needs it?
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Old January 16, 2003, 13:12   #53
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EDIT:
/me thinks *
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Old January 16, 2003, 14:04   #54
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why do you need genetically soybeans with the taste of meat...i mean i have tried some of that veggie meat and.. not for me !

regular soya in a wok or sometihng, now that's fine tasty food
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Old January 16, 2003, 15:13   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by aaglo
Oh, sorry, In the previous post I meant "vegans" (not people-from-vega, but people-who-eat-only-plant-products). So no dairyproducts.
So did I.

A more acurate term for vegans would be that they eat nothing that is derived from an animal, and this typicaly expanded into everything else they do - no leather or other animal by-products. (which can be very hard to achieve in this society)



There is absolutely no health risk with a vegetarian diet, and in many ways it is alot healthier - certainly more so then the "mostly meat" diet common in western societies, anyways. The only real health risk I have heard of is with a pure vegan diet, and a lack of vitamin B12 - I do not know much about this and have been meaning learn more about it, though. Regardless, B12 is often supplimented in store-bought vegan food, like soy milk or (yech) veggieburgers.



By the way, Tofu isn't a meat substitue on it's own, in it's regular state it's quite a unique food and can be a really good adition to stir-fries. I can't imagine genetically modified soy foods being too popular among Vegans, though.
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Old January 16, 2003, 15:47   #56
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Having known many vegetarians, I agree with Osweld that the reaction of Omnivores to vegetarians is usually more annoying than the other way around, but you do sometimes get Vegetarians who are vegeterian for ideological reasons that can be a graitng as any ideologue, when their issue comes up.

As for vegetarian cooking, its fine: I ahe had many very delicious dishes, and hell, Pasta with a good Marinara sauce is vegetarian, isn't it? as are french fries fried in vegetable oils.

But some branches of vegetarianism, such as full vegans strange, as it does force you to make various decisions to maintain a good diet, such as taking lots of supplements (why is pill popping better). And then there are the Frutarian weirdos (individuals who will only eat things such asripe fruits ready for picking): how do they ever find anyitng to eat?
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Old January 16, 2003, 16:27   #57
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I can't believe no-one's piled into this yet. You're getting slow....


Quote:
Originally posted by Osweld

Both ethical and poltical.

The conditions in factory farms are immensely inhumane, and aside from being torturous to the animals the conditions are also a breeding ground for diseases in meat. Factory farms are what has turn un-cooked meat into a biohazard.
It can be, which is why ethical farming movements and the organic meat industry deserve respect.

Quote:
Factory farms also cause an immense amount of pollution, the animal waste produced from cattle greatly excedes the amount produced by humans (and I do mean greatly - I have read estimates that are as much as 130 times the amount of humans for the USA) this all goes into the enviroment untreated, and has been known to kill off all the aquatic life in places which it is dumped.
Now you're on shaky ground. Do you think arable farming is clean in comparison? The industry that produces the vegetarian food you consume is a horrific polluter.
Careless disposal of animal waste can upset the biological balance of rivers, but that's kid's stuff compared to careless disposal of herbicides, fungicides and pesticides. Read some Carl Hiaasen and see what it's doing around the Everglades.

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The anti-biotics and growth hormones that are used so that the animals can live in such atracious conditions bring around "super germs" that are resistent to drugs. These drugs are also in animal waste and run-off, and contaminate the enviroment and possibly even our drinking water.
Yup. Hence the need for investment into organic meat farming.

Quote:
Meat farming is immensely inefficient. 40 percent of the total world's grain harvest goes to feeding cattle, but a single hamburger is equal to ten loaves of bread, and the grazing land needed for free-range animals can bring more yield with crops. Much of the grain used to feed the cattle are imported from places where people are too poor to afford food, and are starving to death. It is estimated that if everyone adopted a vegetarian diet, our current food production would be enough to sustain a population of 10 billion people.
Quite right. Modern arable farming is more efficient than modern meat farming when it comes to churning out calories per acre. However I challenge you to name an industry that is more devastating to the environment than moden arable farming. The only one I can think of is open-cast mining

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Worker's conditions are almost as bad as the animal's. Workers in slaughter houses have some of the most dangerous jobs in the world, succumb to all sorts of injuries. Many of them (in the USA, atleast) are illegal immigrants that are loured to the job with foreign advertisements and can be easily exploited.
Good attitude, but are you going to do anything about it? Like protest for better wages for slaughterhouse workers, and buy meat from ethical slaughterhouses? Or was this section just a bit of a dry-****?

I'm human. I'm designed to include meat in my diet. I'll stick to my blueprint.

The best quote I've ever seen on vegetarianisn came from Foetus, an occasional poster here and at CG. He described it as "society's concession to the morally haunted".
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Old January 16, 2003, 16:40   #58
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[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Lazarus and the The best quote I've ever seen on vegetarianisn came from Foetus, an occasional poster here and at CG. He described it as "society's concession to the morally haunted".
Except most vegetarians are so for health and diet reasons, not moral ones.
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Old January 16, 2003, 16:43   #59
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In that case, here's a newsflash for veggies.

"You're all going to die."
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Old January 16, 2003, 16:47   #60
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I never have, and neither has anyone I know. Your experiences aren't universal, ya know.
Seeing as he basically asserted that the 'in-your-face Vegetarians' do not exist (since he'd never seen one), perhaps you should direct your universality comment to Oswald.

Pointing out a experience that contradicts a universal doesn't make it a universal itself.

And yes, your reading comprehension is suspect. DD's intention was clear .
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