Cheese or not cheese ?

Surxa · January 19, 2003, 13:08

Well, I started playing MoO a few days back. I had played it before briefly but never actually got to a space battle. Anyway, my question is this.

When you retreat from an attack, you can order your ships to re attack the planet again next turn. This means I can shoot all my missiles at the buggers, retreat and take another few pot shots at them, even though it should be impossible for me to rearm in space.

What I want to know is, is this considered a normal strategy or cheese tactics ?

vmxa1 · January 19, 2003, 13:34

Well it is hard to say. The reason the AI can not do this is suppose to be due to the developers adding it in so late in the cycle. That implies is was intented to be there and hence a valid tactic.
OTOH they call it a cheat in the strat guide right after saying this.
So you could say that anyting the AI could not do (note, that is not the same as does not do) is a cheat.
The reality is I do not recall anyone saying they abstain from this trick.
The next question I would have is does it count as a dodge once you get hypercom and can redirect ships?
The rearm bit is not an issue to me as the AI ships are rearmed as well. Since the next battle is in fact a year later, why could you not have rearmed? It is reasonable to have brought along supply ships, the game just does not bother to depict or represent them. Maybe they use teleporters or replicatiors.

vmxa1 · January 19, 2003, 13:38

I should add that it is a small part for me and I rarely use as I do not send missile ship for attack purpoes, but bombers are another thing. I suspect it would not matter much, you would just return the normal way or send a bigger fleet.

Surxa · January 19, 2003, 13:47

Well, I guess I can assume that I have support crafts waiting in hyperspace for me, and the order to reattack the planet untill the defences are down could have been given before hand.

Even then though the fact that the oppnents do not use this is kinda unfair against them. Ofcource I would not want them to use that tactic either cause that is annoying. Though, I guess it does make a bit of sense. In reality it would be similar to bombing runs. The defenders can try to parry the missiles but they can't kill the ships that speed off right after delivering the payload. Ofcource the fact that there is no way to kill ships inside hyperspace kinda totally unbalances the game when this kind of bombing tactics are used.

I'm even more confused then before now.

vmxa1 · January 19, 2003, 14:36

I understand that, but the bottom line is that is can be fairly called a cheat. Not because of the rearming as that occurs for all battles on all sides, but because the AI can not use that tactic. If it could, but did not them, it would not a cheat, just weakness.

Yolky · January 20, 2003, 10:00

Don't forget once you retreat you normally go to the closet home planet, but you can tell them to go anywhere you want, even if it's not the closest planet.

Is that a cheat to? I am not shure but use it alot also.

Davor

vmxa1 · January 20, 2003, 13:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Yolky
Don't forget once you retreat you normally go to the closet home planet, but you can tell them to go anywhere you want, even if it's not the closest planet.

Is that a cheat to? I am not shure but use it alot also.

Davor

I don't know, since I am not sure if the AI can do that or not. I think it can not. If not then if is a cheat.
Now let me state, that if we agree it is a cheat, I will admit to using it, as to tell you the truth, I have never given it a thought before now.
IOW I am not avocating to not use these techniques.

Cxwf · January 21, 2003, 00:07

An interesting side effect of the computer not being able to change it---since the AI ships ALWAYS go to the nearest friendly planet, if there is no friendly planet to go to (ie, if they only have one planet and their retreating from it) then they just disappear. Not that it matters much: If your capable of chasing them away from their home planet the game is over, but I'm sure that has to be a glitch.

vmxa1 · January 21, 2003, 02:15

I won't swear to it, but it seems that on the rare occassion that I am not there to capture the planet, those come back. This can happen when I go there to stomp another races attackers instead.

Yolky · January 21, 2003, 09:43

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

I don't know, since I am not sure if the AI can do that or not. I think it can not. If not then if is a cheat.
Now let me state, that if we agree it is a cheat, I will admit to using it, as to tell you the truth, I have never given it a thought before now.
IOW I am not avocating to not use these techniques.

computer can't do it. says so in the hint book.

also the computer can't use hypercomunication either. says so in hint book also. they even suggest to trade it to the computer ai because they can't use it.

now would that be a cheat since the AI can't use hypercommunication but made for the human player cause they can use it. too much programming that the computer can't handle is my guess why they don't use it and why its programmed to just go to the nearest planet on a retreat.

Davor

vmxa1 · January 21, 2003, 13:09

Well I know the AI is not the smartest thing you will ever encounter.

Zed-F · January 21, 2003, 15:37

Hopefully the MOO3 AI will be smarter at least. Unlike the MOO2 AI.

vmxa1 · January 21, 2003, 19:19

I would not expect any AI to be truley smart. In the main, humans will figure what it does and what can be done against it.
If we are lucky the worst of the exploits will be fixed, but in the end we will have to be able to beat it or no one will play it.
I just hope that in order for us to win, that it does not have to do silly things, that is good enough for me.
I do not mind the AI getting big handicaps, as long as we know what they are.

Urban Ranger · January 22, 2003, 00:58

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I don't know, since I am not sure if the AI can do that or not. I think it can not. If not then if is a cheat.

Why? If the developers don't want you to use it, they'd just remove your ability to do so. Don't forget the AI is just a rule-based system - if the programmer didn't play long enough to find any uses of performing an action, he wouldn't have put the code in. That doesn't mean it's a cheat if you do it.

vmxa1 · January 22, 2003, 01:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Why? If the developers don't want you to use it, they'd just remove your ability to do so. Don't forget the AI is just a rule-based system - if the programmer didn't play long enough to find any uses of performing an action, he wouldn't have put the code in. That doesn't mean it's a cheat if you do it.

Well the big thing is that we do not kno if they have that intent or not. If it was case of them not using it, then fine.
It is often the case that they do not fix something, due to either not wanting to send the money or it is too hard to correct with out breaking something else.
Anyway, please note I did not advocate not using it.
Just that the criteria for an exploit is basically can they AI do it or not. Not if it does. If it does not, but could, it is legit.

Zed-F · January 22, 2003, 11:54

Well, I guess I should be more specific about what I think a smart AI is. A smart AI isn't one that pulls out really brilliant strategy and tactics and wipes you out without breaking a sweat. A smart AI is just one that doesn't do anything egregiously stupid. It might not make the best possible decisions all the time but at least it makes similar mistakes to the kinds a human player might.

The MOO1 AI is good for the most part but it does do some stupid things. Firstly, it loves to attack with forces that can't hurt the target they're going after. Once, fine, you need to get data on what the defender has, but not over and over again; that just leaves your planets vulnerable to counter-attack. Secondly, it loves to keep obsolete designs around and BUILD MORE of them even when it should know they are obsolete. The diplomatic AI is also stupid from time to time -- like as in, "let's declare war on our neighbor when he's obviously got way more production, population, and tech than we do" kind of stupid.

I want the MOO3 AI to be better, not so that it kicks my butt, but so that it doesn't do these kinds of glaringly boneheaded things. Not only does it make it easier to win than it ought to be, it also takes away from the immersion factor due to implausibility.

As for AI handicaps/advantages, I don't care if they start with more resources/cash/ships or whatever than me, so long as they don't break the game's rules and do things I CAN'T do, I'm ok with it.

vmxa1 · January 22, 2003, 13:31

Seems reasonable to me, but I would point out that the "lets attack that strong neighbor", can't be avoided.
You see this in Civ3 as well. Once you get to the point where all the planets are taken, you must go after someone. If that someone is too strong, it does not matter, you lose if you do nothing anyway.
I have had a single city race declare war on me on 2046 in Civ3, while I am peacefully running up my pop for the score on a huge map and I am the only other player.
I suspect the failure to make newer designs is due to the logic looking at the numbers in a given design and deciding they can not afford to scrap that many.
This could happen to humans, if they were to build too many of one type. This why I limit myself to under 10 for most of the game and why I use Large instead a med or small.