Thread Tools
Old January 19, 2003, 18:43   #1
Xian
Warlord
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 264
Pro-war supporters, answer me this!
I hear the pro war protestors want a "solution" to dictatorships that violate human rights and UN resolutions.

If this is true, where the hell were they when the US was giving arms to Iraq, Turkey, Isreal, Terrorists in AFganistan, Indonesia just to name a few? How come they all supported Ronald Reagan when he waged or on millions of people in Latin America with Chemical and Biological weapons? How come they had no problem with George Bush the I invading Panama? Saddam's case is especially embarrasing, because Saddam was SUPPORTED by the West throughout virtually his entire career!

How come they never confront the country with the largest store of weapons of mass destruction in the world? The Country which has USED these weapons with devastating effects to over 10 million people across the world? The country which has vetoed more UN resolutions that any other country, and has violated the Declaration on human rights countless times? THe ONLY COUNTRY TO HAVE USED A NUCLEAR BOMB AND KILL 40,000 CHILDREN? the USA

I think its pretty clear that the Right-wing neo-nazis that support this war know very well that the middle east is the largest imperial prize and probably have stock in a bunch of oil companies.

Lets face it, 90% of these so called "conservatives" couldnt even find Nicaragua on a map, yet that have no problem with teh CIA killing children and blowing up hospitals there. same deal here.

The rich oligarchy in america want to drive attention away from their own brutal and terrifying crimes, and take control of oil.

Notice how Saddam Housein is our FRIEND AND ALLY from the 70's on up until 1991, when he lets France and Russi in on the oil trade - then all of the sudden hes the Beast of Baghdad, and we need to kill children in Iraq though starvation and blow up commercial airplanes - you guys are full of sheite and you know it. The US is a terrorist Rougue State with Nazi ideals. Just admiot it, youll feel alot better
Xian is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 18:44   #2
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
You have already invoked Godwin's Law in the first post of the thread?

0/10.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 18:50   #3
Xian
Warlord
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 264
whats godwins law?

The point of this post is actually NOT about the war, the poitn im trying to make if you cant see it clearly is that you shouldnt be genealizing about extremley diverse gourps, just as its stupid fot me to call all the supportesrs of the war neo-nazis, its stupid to say all the anti-war activists are extrem leftist

that said, i stand behind the FACTS stated in this thread, as much as the media attempt to deny them
Xian is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 18:51   #4
Starchild
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Starchild's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Posts: 3,646
Ah, caps and name calling. The hallmark of young, leftwing idealists. I miss being one of those.

*continues to be devoured from within by the all consuming beast of cynicism*
__________________
Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
Starchild is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 18:53   #5
Dauphin
Civilization IV PBEMPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Dauphin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
Quote:
Originally posted by Xian
whats godwins law?
Quote:
"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
Dauphin is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 19:07   #6
SlowwHand
inmate
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameGameLeague
Deity
 
SlowwHand's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
Blow me, Xian.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
SlowwHand is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 19:09   #7
ranskaldan
Prince
 
ranskaldan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
Starchild!


so do I, in fact.

Xian:

I'm not necessarily a pro-war supporter, but I'll answer you "this" anyway.

This war isn't about dictatorships. Politicians may claim that it is in the hope of gathering more populous support, but as you yourself have pointed out, America couldn't care less about dictatorships, bombings, etc etc.

Well actually, some Americans would be protesting what I just said, so I'll offer a compromising viewpoint: many American politicians and citizens alike may cherish nice and happy ideals of democracy deep in their hearts. However, politicians are faced day-to-day with the challenges of keeping America alive; keeping campaign-funds flowing; keeping votes coming in; keeping oil coming in; keeping American dominance alive; etc etc etc. Hence they often do things that violate whichever ideals that they claim to cherish.

This is why children get bombed, hospitals get blown to pieces, and the economies and infrastructures of various nations get torn asunder every decade by the military machinery of America.

Aha- now the comparison with Hitler arrives. Yes... no matter what ideals Hitler had about massive European plains cultivated by happy Teutonic farmers, his methods are generally considered repulsive.

But what the heck, the question is, is the Pax Americana worth it? The Pax Romana was worth it, because although the Romans fed people to lions for public entertainment, their efforts GENERALLY resulted in a boom of trade, commerce, communications, living standards and so on around the Mediterranean. I'm not saying they couldn't have gotten by with less lion-feeding, I'm saying that in general, their historical contribution was positive. You can't say this about Nazi Germany, whose policies were jsut too weird and could not outweigh whichever positive effect they created or tried to create.

What about America? Well the verdict is out on that one. But every day that trade flows around the world and nukes don't fly, I'm thankful. And I think the Pax Americana contributes to this, because without the stabilizing force of America, the world would be alot more chaotic.
__________________
Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroff
ranskaldan is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 19:09   #8
Starchild
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Starchild's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Blow me, Xian.
Being called a neo-nazi turns you on?

hmmmm.....
__________________
Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
Starchild is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 19:34   #9
Edan
Warlord
 
Edan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 234
Re: Pro-war supporters, answer me this!
Quote:
Originally posted by Xian
I hear the pro war protestors want a "solution" to dictatorships that violate human rights and UN resolutions.
No- at least not me. I want agressive nations that sign cease fire agreements to abide by those agreements.

Quote:
Turkey, Isreal
Have either of these broken any legally binding security council resolutions?

Quote:
How come they all supported Ronald Reagan when he waged or on millions of people in Latin America with Chemical and Biological weapons?
Who said I supported Ronald Reagan?

(When did RR use biological weapons against millions of people?!)

Quote:
Saddam's case is especially embarrasing, because Saddam was SUPPORTED by the West throughout virtually his entire career!
Well, he also was supported by the UN when he was starting out because he drastically improved conditions in his first 5 or so years - he actually won humanitarian awards because of the improvments.

Of course, that doesn't change that he's a meglomaniac. It's easy (or at least easier) to make improvements when you're a dictator.

Saddam was also a better alternative than Iran at the time, with it's radical extremism. That administration made the geopolitical choice of picking the better of two evils. Life, and centainly geopoliticss, is often like that. And making no choice can be even worse.

The important thing now is try to fix up the mistakes that we have made in the past.

Quote:
How come they never confront the country with the largest store of weapons of mass destruction in the world?
Who, Russia? Why do we want to attack them when that would lead to a global nuclear war?

Quote:
The Country which has USED these weapons with devastating effects to over 10 million people across the world?
??? When did the US kill 10 million people using NBC weapons?

Quote:
The country which has vetoed more UN resolutions that any other country, and has violated the Declaration on human rights countless times?
The US has violated human rights countless of times?

Quote:
I think its pretty clear that the Right-wing neo-nazis that support this war know very well that the middle east is the largest imperial prize and probably have stock in a bunch of oil companies.
I'm definately neither right wing nor a neo nazi.


Quote:
The rich oligarchy in america want to drive attention away from their own brutal and terrifying crimes, and take control of oil.


Also, have you never considered that Saddam could well destroy his own oil resources and his neighbors when an invasion starts? I'm sure the administration has, given Saddams actions in the last war.

Quote:
The US is a terrorist Rougue State with Nazi ideals. Just admiot it, youll feel alot better
Much as I would take pleasure in lowering myself to your standard by insulting you in a simmilarly grotesque manner, I don't think I want to be today, thank you.

Last edited by Edan; January 19, 2003 at 19:52.
Edan is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:13   #10
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
Well done for setting back the anti-war argument, Xian. Assuming this isn't a spoof.
Sandman is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:21   #11
<<==EPYON==>>
Settler
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 0
Interesting.

So you're asking what good is a war for?

The answer is simple, without war, there would never be any real advancement in human development and people as a whole will never appreciate and fight for peace as we do today. The fact remains that after a war, human development in all areas, be it military, be it agricultural, be it machinery and energy, sky rockets. War creates the need and human development works fastest when there is a need to drive it forward.

The popular adage is, "You never value something that you already have. It is only when you lose it when you begin to truely value it." The same can be said about war. When war happens, despite all the attrocities and deaths that war brings, it also ultimately brings a peace to the world. From that peace, people begin to appreciate it and fight for their right to retain it.
__________________
Epyon
<<==EPYON==>> is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:32   #12
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
Quote:
The answer is simple, without war, there would never be any real advancement in human development and people as a whole will never appreciate and fight for peace as we do today. The fact remains that after a war, human development in all areas, be it military, be it agricultural, be it machinery and energy, sky rockets. War creates the need and human development works fastest when there is a need to drive it forward.
I disagree. Inventions which happen during a war get a special status, which peacetime inventions don't get. You never hear people going on about how great peace is because of all the discoveries that are made during peacetime. War accelerating human development is an illusion.
Sandman is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:36   #13
Tripledoc
ACDG The Human Hive
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
.

But what the heck, the question is, is the Pax Americana worth it? The Pax Romana was worth it, because although the Romans fed people to lions for public entertainment, their efforts GENERALLY resulted in a boom of trade, commerce, communications, living standards and so on around the Mediterranean. I'm not saying they couldn't have gotten by with less lion-feeding, I'm saying that in general, their historical contribution was positive. You can't say this about Nazi Germany, whose policies were jsut too weird and could not outweigh whichever positive effect they created or tried to create.
Yes, it is well known that the Cartagenians and the Greeks were lousy traders who only cared for sticking swords into the stomachs of savages. The Romans were also excellent scientists and their quantum leaps in areas of applied technology for the civilian sphere made sure they did not have to rely on slave labour at all. Sure thing.

Quote:
What about America? Well the verdict is out on that one. But every day that trade flows around the world and nukes don't fly, I'm thankful. And I think the Pax Americana contributes to this, because without the stabilizing force of America, the world would be alot more chaotic.
Does that mean that if the tradeflow to the US is stopped because the US is incapable of paying for it the 'nukes will fly'? And should I get a job in a factory to drive down wages and make it cheaper for the American consumers to by 'stuff', instead of studying?
Tripledoc is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:36   #14
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
Xian: The answer to your question of why we support the war on Iraq is because we are evil. A war would involve many deaths and much suffering, so that is a good reason to support war. But most importantly, it is important to support war because it will Increase's Americas hegemony and so will allow our American empire of darkness to more easily opress the people of the middle east.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:49   #15
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:54   #16
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
excellent counter troll

7/10
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 20:57   #17
JohnT
lifer
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
JohnT's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 4,264
Quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Xian: The answer to your question of why we support the war on Iraq is because we are evil. A war would involve many deaths and much suffering, so that is a good reason to support war. But most importantly, it is important to support war because it will Increase's Americas hegemony and so will allow our American empire of darkness to more easily opress the people of the middle east.

tsk-tsk. You forgot the billions in profits that will pour into our domestic merchant's of death coffers.
JohnT is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:05   #18
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:21   #19
<<==EPYON==>>
Settler
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 0
Quote:
I disagree. Inventions which happen during a war get a special status, which peacetime inventions don't get. You never hear people going on about how great peace is because of all the discoveries that are made during peacetime. War accelerating human development is an illusion.
I disagree. It cannot be argued that war creates many needs. Rarely in the history of humanity has any need exceed those that are created by a major war.

Nuclear technology would hardly be as prevalent and advanced were it not for World War II.

EPYON
__________________
Epyon
<<==EPYON==>> is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:42   #20
ranskaldan
Prince
 
ranskaldan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
Quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc


Does that mean that if the tradeflow to the US is stopped because the US is incapable of paying for it the 'nukes will fly'? And should I get a job in a factory to drive down wages and make it cheaper for the American consumers to by 'stuff', instead of studying?
The answer to your first point is: YES.
China and America aren't attacking each other because they're too happy buying stuff off each other.

The answer to your second point is: NO.
Study more, so that in the future you can earn more money and buy more Chinese merchandise.
__________________
Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroff
ranskaldan is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:42   #21
ranskaldan
Prince
 
ranskaldan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
Quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Xian: The answer to your question of why we support the war on Iraq is because we are evil. A war would involve many deaths and much suffering, so that is a good reason to support war. But most importantly, it is important to support war because it will Increase's Americas hegemony and so will allow our American empire of darkness to more easily opress the people of the middle east.


11/10
__________________
Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroff
ranskaldan is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:51   #22
Edan
Warlord
 
Edan's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
to more easily opress the people of the middle east.
This form of oppression, does it require them to dance the macarena for five hours straight?
Edan is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:52   #23
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Out of curiosity how old are you Xian? I'm betting you're not a day over 18.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
Oerdin is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 21:59   #24
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
actually, he's 23 or so.

Hmmm, so how do those Shevron-Texaco stocks do, Oerdin?
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:01   #25
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
This is and and almost completly off topic.
Nubclear is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:04   #26
Lawrence of Arabia
PtWDG Gathering StormMac
King
 
Lawrence of Arabia's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: California Republic
Posts: 1,240
It appears to be a hit and run troll, even if I agree with it.
__________________
"Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini
Lawrence of Arabia is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:20   #27
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
actually, he's 23 or so.

Hmmm, so how do those Shevron-Texaco stocks do, Oerdin?
I'm an Exxon-Mobile man myself.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
Oerdin is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:21   #28
David Floyd
Emperor
 
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Posts: 4,620
My mom works for Exxon-Mobil, so I get a 10% discount there
__________________
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/
David Floyd is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:53   #29
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Lucky sod! Care to hook me up with a little discounted petrol?
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
Oerdin is offline  
Old January 19, 2003, 22:55   #30
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
You see, everyone who is involved in Oil companies wants the war in Iraq. NOT!
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:46.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team