Zsozso's attempt at fastest transcend on huge map - Page 2

Capt Dizle · January 29, 2003, 13:24

88 bases oh my

MariOne · January 30, 2003, 05:05

I had a tentative, non-intensive test run with 7 zaks before JT and ZZ posted it.

I had even thought to play that as a 7-self-hotseat, profiting of the dafault human pbem communication setting, allowing contact (and trade!) from the get go.
That would have allowed to trade techs at once, and picking a different UNI bonus starting tech for each zak, that should have given an impressive kick start, with the caveat that you first have to discover one if you don't want the tech cost to skyrocket even before you start the next one....

I chose to go with a normal singleplayer tho.
Went for Cpods only, almost no unit, not facilities, not even formers.
When I got IndAuto, the inner bases began to produce crawlers to get some project in the HQ, and some formers as their growth began to leave them short of usable tiles to work.

I didn't balance that approach tho, so I could get the EG only around '45.
I can tell you tho that by giving in to any request, , then trading, then offering all my techs to everyzak, I managed to rake in 6-8 new techs, sign Pact with everyone and become governor on the same turn I got the EG.
(apart the tech boost at first contact tho, even 6 magnanimous Pacted Zaks won't contribute more than one tech every 10 years or so, albeit you constantly keep them updated...)

Not playing it intensively tho, I was nowhere near ZZ development levels, before I let that "pilot" attempt down.

I think that balancing Cpods/formers/crawlers/facilities production is the key to that approach and it doesn't require just micromanagement skills, but really a true global "Vision" of the game...

Capt Dizle · January 30, 2003, 08:15

Mose, in what order did you go for the SPs. I tend to go HGP, WP, ME, PEG, VW, and then EG.

There is an optimal number of developed bases to have and that it is important to get them up in the right timeframe. But I am not yet settled on that timeframe. I tend to make too few, which leads to a spectacular game till you realize that you aren't getting enough tech to supplement your SSC.

If you make too many your vertical growth is hindered.

One point I have settled on. Lots of formers, many more than you would build in a normal game.

Eight eight bases is insane though. There has to be a more elegant solution than that.

zsozso · January 30, 2003, 09:59

My opinion about the optimal strategy after this attempt:
1. In early stage keep building C.pods and plant them very tight,
stay out of Dem. to get the 10 minerals for new bases. You should build some formers too, after Cpods in inner bases and build roads to speedup migration of new colony pods outward

2. When you have Ind.Auto and a good number of bases, switch to making more formers and crawlers and build some important SPs, e.g. WP, PTS and EG. The shape and size of available territory will determine what is a good number of bases, I would say around 20-30. Once you get EG make yourself governor, try to pact everybody (be nice to them) and trade as much as you can.

3. Then beeline for orbital base improvements, then Digital Sentience (Cybernetic) while building more colony pods again.

4. Build energy parks only at the endgame (for the last 20-25 techs) when you have lots of formers, they are all super-formers, build magtube bacbone to allow instant movements.

MariOne, in my current game the pirates practically never contribute techs (they gave me maybe 1 or 2 at early stages, nothing since then). Nevertheless, they are still very useful, because I sell them my techs each time, not gift them! This way I can get a lot of extra energy from them, apart from the commerce income. In only give techs as gift if they demand. For this reason, it might be worth to throw in some Morgans as well among the Zaks for opponents. They maybe able to give even more energy...

Capt Dizle · January 30, 2003, 10:32

zsozso, how do you keep all those pacts when you are so far ahead on the power graph?

zsozso · January 30, 2003, 15:41

Probably the citizen level has a lot to do with being able to keep the pacts.
OTOH, I have not only given them whatever they asked for, but also gifted them at least 4 bases (at pop 3) each - they must be happy about that...

Archaic · January 30, 2003, 20:12

It's the citizen level. Those guys will stay Pacted to you even if you're running the SE they can't use. And even on the rare occasions they do quit the pact, they'll come back at just an offer of good will and friendship.

zsozso · February 1, 2003, 10:58

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2191
Population: 719
Number of bases: 88
Technology: 76 (All the way, including Threshhold of Transcendence)
Researching: Frictionless surfaces (1 turn left), speed 3 turn/tech
Energy: 128, earning 6224/turn, allocation 0%labs, 100% economy
SE: democratic, green, wealth, eudaimonic
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System, Energy Grid,
Cloudbase Academy, Ascetic Virtues, Cloning Vats, Human Genome, Merchant Exchange, Supercollider, Universal Translator
Units: 105 formers, 24 sea formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 13 worms, 7 spore launchers, 5 alien artifacts, 1 unity foil, 145 crawlers, 5 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 4 land transports, 3 supply ships, 5 destroyer transports

The game is practically over, because I just researched the Threshold of Transcendence and rushed in some drop-trans-fision-rover supply units (140 minerals worth a piece) into the "Voice of Planet" SP. In the last ten turns I was getting at least 2 techs each turn (plus bonus ones from secrets, UT SP and alien artifacts). I have plenty of supply units to be able to rush the Transcendence next turn, so I will transcend by 2193.

zsozso · February 1, 2003, 11:14

So, the game is ended in 2193 by transcendence.

Here is the last save, just hit run complete.

I do not think I did the best job possible in this game. It could be done faster.
It was citizen level, which is much easier than transcend. Nevertheless, I believe, that it is possible to transcend within 100 turns on a huge map even on transcend level. I will try that next.

As I mentioned earlier, it is a fairly boring and tedious game

. Playing fastest transcend challenge on tiny map is much more exciting and fun.

Capt Dizle · February 1, 2003, 11:47

I daresay a sub 100 turn transcend on transcend is impossible outside of some freak event. On huge.

zsozso · February 3, 2003, 09:53

JT, you could be right, but I try anyway...

For the early ICS, the most important factor is food production, because you can't build a cpod until you've grown to pop2 and there is no way to "rush" the growth. So, it is best to start where lots of nuts are available: the jungle.
So I started my huge map fast transcend on transcend level game on the "Huge Map of Planet" - because this way a know where the jungle is. I kept starting a new game until I got placed pretty close to the jungle (world map visible from unity survey). I'm playing Zak, opponents: 3 Zaks, 3 Morgans.

I do not have time now to report exact stats for each save, just the bottomline:
Year 2151, 19 bases, 34 pop, 23 techs, 2 SPs: EG and VW, getting PTS rushed next turn. I'm governor with 1 pact (with a Morgan), 4 treaties and 1 truce (with a Zak on my continent).

One thing that pissed me off: I met the Zak who started on my continent by scouting, when he saw me, the first thing was he declared vendetta. He didn't even demand anything, just right away pronounced vendetta. That's what I call love at first sight

Later I managed to bribe him to a truce - I do not want to waste production on war. But he wouldn't sign a treaty and doesn't even talk to me recently. That could become trouble.

Tha attached zip file has saves from 2101, 2123, 2132, 2141 and 2151.

Capt Dizle · February 3, 2003, 10:35

Jungle huh. Cheese!

Picking 3 Morgs could be very smart if they survive they may be a good source of commerce.

Okay, I'll retract my statement. It might be possible if you play the jungle bunny.

I will have to see it to believe it though. And I do wish you would write a narrative so that we can follow your strategy a little better.

Hendrik · February 3, 2003, 16:52

I think you will have a much harder time ICSing with Zack than you did with Deidre because on transcend the drones are so bad... I would be surprised if you transcended sooner than year 120 from looking at the saves right now.

Either way good luck... the Jungle does make a surprisingly large difference in the early game expansion process.

zsozso · February 3, 2003, 21:56

Brief narrative that I skipped in the morning:

-2111. Early stage strategy: maximized ICS, i.e. build nothing else but c.pods,
plant them as tight as terrain allows, no terraforming, use the jungle.
In the meantime go pod-popping with the indepenent scout.
Got the comlink freq of Zak3, traded techs and signed treaty.
One pod proliferated a good part (5 tiles) of the jungle with forest - excellent!
It will grow taking care of my early terraforming needs

Tech beeline target: Ind.Auto. for crawlers, Wealth and PTS (FM along the way)

-2123. ICS going on, 4 bases so far, next 3 pods getting ready for launch,
managed to switch on FM and Wealth, 7 turn/tech, researching Eco.Eng.
Popped an alien artifact, will link it up as soon as it walks back to base.
Tech beeline target: Cent.Emp. (for Empath Guild)

-2132. Still ICS on full throttle, 8 bases, plus 3 pods moving to their places.
Switch SE to demo/planned/wealth for faster growth and pod building.
Got 15 techs using AA and trades, but it hit my cost so that I get 22 turns/tech.
(although it would be 13 with FM).
Met Zak2 north of the jungle (he must be around the boreholes somewhere), hates me
on first sight - vendetta. Bribed him to a truce with couple of tech gifts.

-2141. 14 bases, inner ones switched to crawler production, first SP target EG just
rushed in last turn. Made treaties with everybody else (Zak2 is still on truce),
traded techs and gifted some, plus sold some to Morgans. Cash flow greatly improved!
Elected myself governor (barely, with 33 of my votes against 32 of collected votes
for my opponent - the bastards almost all voted for him!).

-2151. Major SP building phase, got EG, VW and now rushing PTS next turn: already
upgraded 5 crawlers to trance, that should be enough with some cash added.
Unfortunately, Zak3 completes HG next turn, so I'll miss that. I'll make WP after.
I have also produced some former, only 3 bases far north are still building cpods.
19 bases, 23 techs, demo/FM/wealth, income 76/turn, breakthroughs 8 turns.
Next beeline for cybernetic (knowledge), then super formers.

Hendrik, you are right, it would be tough to grow to 90+ bases with Zak on transcend. And I do not plan to. I did early ICS to get a headstart with the jungle. Now, I am swtiching to a balance of building science centers and energy parks, while still expanding a bit further horizontally ( i.e. more bases).

Hendrik · February 4, 2003, 00:54

Well what I mean is that right now you don't have the terraformers, or the mineral production to make terraformers. A tight city spacing like you have would need a lot of boreholes to make it productive, and you will probably want to maximise the number of condensor/farms on the jungle... so it will be very difficult for you to get decent mineral production in those cities, which will make infrastructure come in more slowly.

This is probably the fastest that anyone can grow in the first 51 years. I am just curious as to how you will make each base productive when they are so tiny.

A very nice beginning though, between the Monsoon jungle and the early forest pod pop you had you were in very nice circumstances for building.

Super formers so early might make a significant difference in your speed, I am eager to see how you will deal with the huge choice of tech at your disposal.

ellie · February 4, 2003, 04:20

Nice gameplay ;p

Last time i landed in the monsoon i did the ultimate crime and forested it!! (im a forest freak).

But ive no idea how you guys transcend so quickly 2320 is my fastest transcend on @transcend difficulty@ and a large map.

Ellie

zsozso · February 4, 2003, 07:19

I'll do Ellie's ultimate crime and forest the jungle, too !

Boreholes only on rocky tiles. Those pop3 bases are not so weak with forest around. By 2155 I have a former for each base (took only about 2-3 turns in each base to make them). Even though the production of these cities is relatively low, they still produce 8-9 mins even without boreholes, those who will get borehole can make 14, others will get a crawler on a rocky/mine/road giving them 12-13 and that is enough. The point to consider: I do not need to build huge infrastructure in all of the cities. I only build 2 or maybe 3 science cities with lots of facitlities - those can be rushed. Others are "support-cities" making crawlers and formers. The power is in the numbers: if you have 40 small cities that each can produce a crawler in 2 turns, that makes 80 crawlers in 2 turns - you can't match that with 12-15 well built powerfull cities, what you'd have with a traditional builder strategy. Same goes for terraforming: I had no formers in 2151, but have 16 in 2155, can have 30+ in 2161 - and so many formers can terraform real fast. I usually dig boreholes in 2 turns (with 8 simple formers, cant' be bothered to put 16 on a single tile to get it in 1 turn). Iam all for the gang-forming technique, i.e. I move a whole bunch of formers together to sweep the terrain and terraform each tile in a single turn (except for boreholes, there I "waste" 2 turns). There is a first wave of formers to make the road, then the second wave makes the actual target (forest/mine/solar), they can all move in and terraform in the same turn thanks to the road.

MariOne · February 4, 2003, 08:58

2 questions, mainly related to Citizen peculiar features.

On Citizen, you can costlessly switch your SE on turn one - provided you have some req tech for a different SE.

With Zak, you can pick PlaNets, which is ALSO on the way to IndAuto. Besides, its inefficiency won't hurt while you're small in the beginning - at least, the more bases the extra productivity (also growth induced) will allow you, could balance the odd lab which inefficiency would not allow you to squeeze with extreme SE unbalancing.

I see you got BEFORE to FM than Planned... I would have gone to other way round...
True, shorter nutrients or mineral rows are useless UNTIL you're about to grow 1 size or actually complete an item. Thus, you could keep in FM until Planned needed.
Problems are, that you'll hardly manage to synchronize every base, and you'd end with a "continuum" of growth/production staggered moments in one or the other random base. Also, you'd likely be continuously switching in and out of Golden Ages, never reaping their benefits.

Similar question for Demo:
as after the very first phase you could allow to build bases in "waves", you could freely use Demo as soon as you can, going back to Frontier every 3-4 turns when you're about to plop down the new tier...

Beeline is IndAuto, which will give you Planned/Wealth, and the FM otpion.
After that you go for the EG, which passes by CentEcology: do you take a detour for EthCalc, or do you manage to get it maybe from techtrades after you get the EG?

____
Intersting note:
I said I did a bland 7-Zaks attempt.
Concerning also JT's considerations on techs availabilty/withholding, I would say that to complicate all the unproved theories about techs offers, they're SLOT dependent.
I.E., the same faction loaded in a differnt game slot will be allowed a DIFFERENT research path, and I mean the whole game thru. Mongoose got to the extent of determining that the mere presence of OTHER "displaced" factions in the game will alter the techs offered to your own research, all the rest unchanged.

For what concerns us, this will mean that if you want to try the PlaNets way from turn 2101, you can only do it playing with the Zak in the 3rd, or the 6th slot.
This of course is valid for 7-Zaks games, didn't check it for other combinations.

Ah, BTW, I also found out that in all the recent SMAX games I setup mixing the factions (no Scenario, just normal setup options), even Zak's research began from 2105 and not from first turn!
Anyone else noticed something similar?

MariOne · February 4, 2003, 09:25

Quote:

Originally posted by zsozso
...
Iam all for the gang-forming technique, i.e. I move a whole bunch of formers together to sweep the terrain and terraform each tile in a single turn (except for boreholes, there I "waste" 2 turns). There is a first wave of formers to make the road, then the second wave makes the actual target (forest/mine/solar), they can all move in and terraform in the same turn thanks to the road.

On that regard, I wonder...
I must really force my instinct, to build ROVER formers when I do. Those 3 extra rows always look wasted to me, for a mere extra movement (useless on rocky or fungus...). When I can, I do profit of building roads ahead, but that is done in a flexible and not systematic way.

BUT.

If you actually *specialise* two different groups of "roadbuilders" and "realformers", then 2 or 3 Rover formers might be worth their cost.
Figure:

flat tile
Normal Former: 2 turns - 1st moves in, 2nd builds
Rover Former: 1 turn to move in & build = 2 tiles in 2 turns (if adjacent...)
2 Normal Formers: 2 tiles in 2 turns, costing 1 more support (No gain for a single tile!)

rolling tile (OR river, not moving along it)
Normal Former: 3 turns
Rover Former: 2 turns (on the 1st moves in AND starts building)
2 Normal Formers: 2 turns (1 more support)
2 Rover Formers: 1 turn

Capt Dizle · February 4, 2003, 12:24

Well, I try to limit roadbuilding somewhat. It really isn't necessary to build a road on every tile.

zsozso, can you give us a save at the end of MY 2160, 2171, and 2181?

I would like to compare them to the games played by Hendrick and I.

zsozso · February 7, 2003, 10:07

I do not have time now to write full report, will do tomorrow.
But here are the saves from 61, 71 and 81. The bottomline in 81:

49 techs, 313 pop, 51 bases, tech cost 3960, labs/turn 1159.
Running demo/fm/knowledge.

I had enough of the non-cooperating opponents (had only 1 Morgan pact and even he was always demanding free techs and only bought 1 for energy). Because all my diplomatic efforts failed to make more pacts, I decided to build a litle Delta-commando force: 3 chaos copters + 3 air-drop defenders. With these I could switch Zak2-s truce into submissive pact in a single turn.

Then I made some further use of those units. If I already spent the mins to build them, I might as well enjoy the benefits, so I ran down Morgan2 as well, same technique single turn to switch from treaty to submissive pact. Next one is Morgan - the remaining 2 Zaks a bit far away to reach....

Anyway, some further little tricks I'm using recently:
Those drop defenders come handy in pod popping around pact brothers bases (the idiots leave the pods unpopped). Thanks to the orbital improvements, I have a full map now so I can see where the pods are and can drop onto them directly - much faster than walking.
Another little trick: I built some land transports with drop pods: these are good for transporting colony pods quickly to planting tile. Next turn, the base is built, so the transport can jump back!

Capt Dizle · February 7, 2003, 17:01

While I still think its flaky to play from a contrived start, I am seriously impressed that you are doing this with only a few developed bases. This makes me wonder if such a strategy could be used on a real map.

zsozso, your innovative approach and skills confirm your reputation as a SMACMASTER.

I still don't think you'll get there in 19 more turns. I don't think you can get your labs up fast enough and surely you will reach a point of dimishing returns on artifacts and tech from submissives.

Still, a great concept and a great game.

Capt Dizle · February 7, 2003, 17:04

Oh, it just occurred to me that with the Space Elevator you might be able to grab some artifacts by orbital insertion. You can then just insert a colony pod and presto, node in place. Thats another reason that the University is the faction for fast trancends.

OTOH, artifacts can get you into the dead end part of the tech tree. Isn't it true that with artifacts you can pick up techs with only one prereq discovered?

Archaic · February 7, 2003, 21:13

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne
Ah, BTW, I also found out that in all the recent SMAX games I setup mixing the factions (no Scenario, just normal setup options), even Zak's research began from 2105 and not from first turn!
Anyone else noticed something similar?

If you're still talking about Citizen level here, it's a "feature" supposed to prevent the beginner from getting a tech choice right from the start. Should happen with the human player as well as the AI.

zsozso · February 8, 2003, 10:14

JT, I was also shocked about this crazy thin expansion strategy when David Byron brought it up years ago. Then I tried it and realized the immense power in it.

A bit more stats about my states I omitted yesterday:
Year 2161: 29 Techs, 27 bases, 86 pop.
25 formers, 2 supply, 2 transport foils.
SE: demo/FM/knowledge
Tech cost 1520, tech per turn 406 (4 turns per tech).
Researching Neural Grafting, getting it next turn, then target MMI.
(still need DAP for it though).
Orbital improvements and drop pods are very important when you play with many small bases - orbital stuff gives you great return on investment, drops make it possible to plant new colony pods made in inner bases quickly on the perimeters.

Year 2171:
38 techs, 32 bases, 102 pop.
41 formers, 4 sea formers, 13 crawlers, 1 trawler.
Building 3 chaos copters and 3 drop plasma garrisons for invasion.
I just have to get those submissive pacts

SE temporaryli switched to demo/green/knowledge, allocation 30% eco, 20% psych, 50%labs - giving techs per 7 turns only.
this is because I do not want to get the extra drones when copters completed, then I'll make punishment sphere in a single base
and support my army from there and thus can switch back to FM.
Anyway I do not mind if I don't research superconductor myself,
because Zak2 has it and he is going to be my first target, probably
get it from him and then I can use my research points for the next tech.

Year 2181:
Major progress due to the success of my millitary investment.
Now I have 1 diplomatic + 2 submissive pacts, popped some AA near
Zak2 bases using drop defenders. I'll have to transport thos home quickly.
I'll walk them to closest Zak2 bases, then drop-transport home from there
using drop equipped land transports. Submissive pacts gave insane amount of cash - first they gave me all they had, then I sold them all my techs 25 energy each - pushing them deep into negative. Next turn they recover from that - some voodoo economics.
49 techs, 313 pop, 52 bases - major colony pod building phase again.
Completed the cloning vats giving me huge growth factor - turning all those small bases into bigger ones. Building the Ascetic Virtues to push the pop limit. My SPs: WP, PTS, VW, ME, CV, CA, PEG.
Science center producing 204 lab points per turn, total 1159 per turn, cost
3960. In the next 5 turns I will build a lot of new bases (11 active colony pods + 23 in production currently) and they will all grow quickly due to the CV. I have 6 sky hydroponocs already, will beeline for Adv.Spaceflight to get power transmitters too, then I go for Digital Sentience (Cybernetic) - this should get me to research speed of new tech each turn soon.

zsozso · February 8, 2003, 10:41

How to get 5 techs in a single turn without AAs or other factions gifting to you:
look at my save from 2189, I have 70 techs, completing the Universal Translator, currently researching super tensile solids, tech cost 5657, lab per turn 8058.

Hit turn complete. Idiot Zak3 wants to lauch solar shade - veto it.
Unfortunately, I have received UFT from Zak2 last turn - he researched it,
so now I'm getting some "bad techs" offered...
1st offer: frictionless surf(D10), Secretc of manifolds (D13) - choose secrets
2nd offer: frictionless surf(D10), Secretc of creation(D10), Matter editation(B12) - choose ME
3rd offer: frictionless surf(D10), matter transmission (B13) - choose MT
4th offer: frictionless surf(D10), Sing.Mech(D12) - choose FS

and now I have 75 techs done - need 2 more:
temporal mechanics and threshold of transcendence.

zsozso · February 8, 2003, 13:01

Transcended in 2194 - on transcend level, huge map, SMAX.

The last 4 year saves are attached 2190, 2191, 2192, 2193 - just hit turn complete (a lot of units have not moved yet, but there is no point).

It is worth looking at the 2191 save. It still has max SE setting for technology, producing 13447 lab points per turn - how is that for my "undeveloped" bases, Jimmytrick ? The tech cost is 6570 BTW, so its making 2 techs per turn easy. However, to get to the stage I was in 2192, you should switch SE to Eudamonic and 80% economy, because Threshold of Transcendence is being researched and more than half-done, so there is no need for extra techs the be completed, but the energy comes handy for completion of the 2 expensive SP after - in fact I spent the energy on upgrading rover supply units to some monsters with fission power, 3p aromor and drop and trance - this is cashed in for 200 minerals even at +4 industry setting. So you only need 6 of these to complete the Ascent SP.

I think I'm done with this fast transcend chellenge on huge map - unless someone beats this results...

Capt Dizle · February 10, 2003, 00:08

Deserves nothing less than a standing ovation zsozso. Still it leaves questions unanswered. Was it the playing style or the jungle start that made the biggest difference. Certainly tempts me to play from your postion and see how I would do with a more traditional playstyle.

Can the Byron style beat the traditional style without a jungle start?

Of course someone can manufacture an even more friendly map and then what.......

Very impressed with your military operations. You are indeed the king of the fast transcend.

MariOne · February 10, 2003, 05:05

Quote:

Originally posted by zsozso
Transcended in 2194 - on transcend level, huge map, SMAX.

I think this makes moot for me to still insist getting below the 100 turns bar at Citizen level

MariOne · February 10, 2003, 05:10

JT, zso showed that it is *possible* to Transcend at huge transced by 2194.
*possible* doesn't mean "anytime" or "always", it *entails* favorable condition.
Transcend-Huge are already TWO restraints on the achievement.
We "could" care to make a cross-table, i.e. a table with TWO variables which can be displayed in one simple page (columns and rows), charting the records for Difficulty and for Planetsize.
Mind, that was not a scenarioed map, that was a "game-provided" map (although a known one), and the starting position was not hand-set, just restarted until you get an acceptable one.