Best symphony ever?

monkspider · January 23, 2003, 01:39

My apologies in advance to Boris if I have made an egregious ommission or two. So which one is it? My vote goes to Beethoven's legendary 9th.

notyoueither · January 23, 2003, 02:26

Sympathy for the Devil, The Rolling Stones...

Errr, sorry.

monolith94 · January 23, 2003, 02:58

Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade.
The one peice of classical music I will NEVER get tired of.
hey Boris, is there any one 'version' of Scheherezade you'd reccomend to me?

Ned · January 23, 2003, 03:12

Mahler's 2nd followed closely by Beethoven's 9th

Meshelic · January 23, 2003, 03:15

You forgot Mahlers 6th Symphony! Truly a beautiful piece of work!

What about Holst's "The Planets", or Tsaichovksy?

Oh well.

EDIT - well you've got ONE Tsaichovsky at least...

Kassiopeia · January 23, 2003, 05:03

Agh. Can I vote three symphonies?

Sibelius's fifth, Dvorak's ninth, Beethoven's ninth, can't decide...

colossus · January 23, 2003, 08:21

I think Scherherezade is a symphonic suite rather than a symphony(the CD booklet just say so...), although I can't tell the difference.

The version I owned is Karajan conducting Berliner Philharmoniker, published by DeutscheGrammophon. It sounds excellent, its just the type of music Karajan excelled-emotional and expressive.

Boris Godunov · January 23, 2003, 11:03

*cracks knuckles*

Ok, first:

Quote:

Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade.

Not a symphony!

As for a specific recording, I'm partial to both the Riccardo Muti and the George Szell. I haven't heard it, but the recent Kurt Masur one is supposedly good as well.

Quote:

What about Holst's "The Planets",

Not a symphony! But indeed a great work, Especially Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Now, as for the poll's omissions... the most glaring is the absence of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. Oh monkie, how could you? It is the brightest symphonic star in the musical firmament between Beethoven's death and Brahms' 1st!

Also absent are the Bruckner 6th and 8th (both easily outstripping the 7th and 4th), the Beethoven 7, the Brahms 1 (Monkie, I thought this was your favorite Brahms???), the Schubert 9th, the Schumann 2nd, the Mahler 8th, the Sibelius 2nd (his best), and the Shostakovich 5th.

As for the "best" symphony--this is rather difficult, because the symphonic languages changes so much from Haydn to Shostakovich. It's rather like saying James Joyce is better than Chaucer. How does one compare?

Setting aside my personal favorite, the Brahms 4th, I give the top spot, as cliched as it may sound, to the Beethoven 5th. It is simply a perfect symphony from beginning to end. The thematic unity is unmatched in any symphony before or since, and it is so tightly constructed that not a note is out of place. Many portray it as the struggle between Man and Fate, but that's not necessary to appreciate its greatness.

The rest of my "1st-tier Beethoven" symphonies are the 4th and 7th, and I vascilate over which I like more. Currrently, the 7th is in the lead. The Allegretto is sublime, and the finale is also one of Ludwig's best bits.

The 9th is...problematic for me. I love it as a piece of music, but as a whole symphony it's got problems. The first movement is great--titanic, in fact. But there are some orchestration problems I would like to fix, such as having the trombones come in on the huge climax. I know tradition said to reserve them for later on, but they really add oomph to that section. The biggest delight about the 9th is that after the 1st movement comes an even better 2nd movement, the Scherzo. So how much of a let down is it to move from those two movements into the 3rd movement? While by no means bad, it's really...unremarkable and, frankly, boring. It is sorely out of place amongst its two predecessors.

The finale stands alone as a great work of music, but in the symphonic context it's a little bumpy. The chorale theme, while justly famous, is useless for symphonic development, so Beethoven spends the movement working around this problem. He includes snippets of each of the previous movements, which comes across as a somewhat cheap way of bringing thematic unity to the work where none exists.

But these are quibbles, because it's undeniable that the Finale is rip-roaringly good, achieves the desired effect of uplifting the soul and bringing an audience to its feet in jubilation.

But ya know, I have to break my symphonic bests into categories. So here they are:

High Classical: Mozart's 40th (Runner up: Haydn's 96th)
Late Classical: Beethoven's 5th (Runner up: his 7th)
Early Romantic: Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique (Runner up: Schubert's 9th)
High Romantic: Brahms' 4th (Runner up: his 1st)
Late Romantic/Modern: Mahler 5th (Runner up: his 1st)

monkspider · January 23, 2003, 11:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

(Monkie, I thought this was your favorite Brahms???),

Excellent post Boris.
My favorite is actually the 3rd, closely followed by the 4th.
1st is a good one though, I just thought Herr Brahms was ably represented by the 3rd and 4th.

DaShi · January 23, 2003, 13:16

Dvorak's Eighth is better than his nineth.

Japher · January 23, 2003, 13:59

Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique

thinkingamer · January 23, 2003, 14:21

Where's Beethoven's 7th symphony???

lord of the mark · January 23, 2003, 15:17

i voted for Brahms 4th. I agree Symph Fantastique should be on the list, though i would dont much like it and would not have voted for it. Brahms 1st is another fav.

I also like Prokoviev's Classical symphony.

Japher · January 23, 2003, 15:30

Boris has hit it pretty much right on the nose with his list, IMO.

I only wish Berlioz was not such a dud after his first.

S. Kroeze · January 23, 2003, 18:49

Since I have to uphold my reputation as an elitist, pretentious snot, I voted 40th Symph. in g by W.A.Mozart.
Actually I prefer his 38th Symph. in D, the Prager, but I couldn't vote for it -understandably since it is less well-known.
In my view Mozart was the last first-rate composer!

My favourite Brahms Symph. is his IInd in D.
I also love Schubert's Vth in B flat.

Generally I do not like Beethoven, though I am willing to admit he is a great composer. I prefer his VIIth Symph. in A.

It's a pity Josquin desPrez didn't compose symphonies...

Boris Godunov · January 23, 2003, 20:48

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
i voted for Brahms 4th.

Good man! I could probably spend an entire thread discussing the 4th and the 14 or so different recordings I have of it.

Quote:

I also like Prokoviev's Classical symphony.

D'Oh! Another one that should be on the list! And even I missed it...

Boris Godunov · January 23, 2003, 20:57

Quote:

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Since I have to uphold my reputation as an elitist, pretentious snot, I voted 40th Symph. in g by W.A.Mozart.

In G minor actually.

Quote:

Actually I prefer his 38th Symph. in D, the Prager, but I couldn't vote for it -understandably since it is less well-known.

What does being well-known have to do with it? He's asking for the best. That could be an obscure one.

Quote:

In my view Mozart was the last first-rate composer!

Pish-posh! Mozart is overrated.

Quote:

My favourite Brahms Symph. is his IInd in D.

The Brahms 2nd is my least favorite among his four symphonies. That is to say, it is the least excellent. But still excellent, nonetheless.

Quote:

Generally I do not like Beethoven, though I am willing to admit he is a great composer. I prefer his VIIth Symph. in A.

I honestly don't understand people who enjoy classical music but don't like Beethoven...it's like enjoying Italian opera but hating Puccini!

Quote:

It's a pity Josquin desPrez didn't compose symphonies...

And it's a pity Bach didn't write jazz numbers, too.

monolith94 · January 23, 2003, 22:19

"As for a specific recording, I'm partial to both the Riccardo Muti and the George Szell. I haven't heard it, but the recent Kurt Masur one is supposedly good as well."
And where on God's green earth does one get these??? How expensive are they?

cavebear · January 23, 2003, 22:25

Banana. As in "none of the above".

"Pictures at an Exposition" is my favorite. "William Tell Overture" is a close 2nd. "The Planets" is right up there, too.

Boris Godunov · January 23, 2003, 22:36

Quote:

Originally posted by monolith94
"As for a specific recording, I'm partial to both the Riccardo Muti and the George Szell. I haven't heard it, but the recent Kurt Masur one is supposedly good as well."
And where on God's green earth does one get these??? How expensive are they?

try www.towerrecords.com
or www.amazon.com
or www.barnesandnoble.com

And search under classical recordings. You should be able to search by work title, composer, conductor, orchestra, label, etc.

Boris Godunov · January 23, 2003, 22:36

Quote:

Originally posted by cavebear
Banana. As in "none of the above".

"Pictures at an Exposition" is my favorite. "William Tell Overture" is a close 2nd. "The Planets" is right up there, too.

None of which are symphonies, so none of which would qualify for the poll.

Zero · January 23, 2003, 22:42

Symphony of the night. (Castlevania)

S. Kroeze · January 24, 2003, 20:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov In G minor actually.

Quite right; that's why I used lower case and NO CAPITAL.

Quote:

What does being well-known have to do with it? He's asking for the best. That could be an obscure one.

I merely wanted to point out that in my opinion the Prager is the greatest symphony; yet I couldn't vote for it. And I don't blame the person who made this poll for not mentioning it, though it is not an obscure one.
He made an intelligent selection, though it didn't contain any modern piece of music (Schostakovitsch for example)

Quote:

I honestly don't understand people who enjoy classical music but don't like Beethoven...it's like enjoying Italian opera but hating Puccini!

I do not have something against Beethoven, but I don't like aggression, which in my highly subjective view is a main ingredient of Beethoven's music. I wouldn't invite him for dinner.
And you might have guessed that generally I prefer pre-classical music. My favourite composers are Josquin desPrez, Palestrina, Monteverdi, Bach and Mozart.

I like Italian opera -especially Monteverdi- but generally do not like Verdi, though again I am willing to admit he is a great composer.

Quote:

And it's a pity Bach didn't write jazz numbers, too.

Didn't he?

Alex Woehr · January 25, 2003, 02:23

Since my two top favorites are not on the list (Mahler's 2nd and 6th respectively) I'll have to vote for his 1st ( I am very much a Mahler fan) tied with Brahm's 4th and Tchaikovsky's 6th.

Some Symphonies I think were left out:
Mahler's 2nd "Resurrection"
Mahler's 6th "Tragic" (a nickname I DO NOT like)
Bruckner's 5th (almost a universally ignored work)
Havergal Brian's 1st "Gothic" (the official largest symphony ever written)

Just out of curiosity, even though I know it is not a symphony, how many of you have heard of Schonberg's "Gurrelieder" ?

monkspider · January 25, 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Woehr
Since my two top favorites are not on the list (Mahler's 2nd and 6th respectively) I'll have to vote for his 1st ( I am very much a Mahler fan) tied with Brahm's 4th and Tchaikovsky's 6th.

Some Symphonies I think were left out:
Mahler's 2nd "Resurrection"
Mahler's 6th "Tragic" (a nickname I DO NOT like)
Bruckner's 5th (almost a universally ignored work)
Havergal Brian's 1st "Gothic" (the official largest symphony ever written)

Just out of curiosity, even though I know it is not a symphony, how many of you have heard of Schonberg's "Gurrelieder" ?

I don't think I'm famillar with the latter symphony you mentioned, but I love Bruckner's 5th!

Ned · January 25, 2003, 03:53

Alex, That's two of us who would vote Mahler's 2nd No. 1.

I don't know if I have a favorite among the rest of Mahler's symphonies - but the 8th may be the best of the lot.

Asher · January 25, 2003, 05:01

I just downloaded Beethoven's 9th since it's rated the highest here.

I don't understand. It seem's all over the place, chaotic to me...

Was Beethoven a drug addict?

Boris Godunov · January 25, 2003, 11:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
I just downloaded Beethoven's 9th since it's rated the highest here.

I don't understand. It seem's all over the place, chaotic to me...

Was Beethoven a drug addict?

Did you download the entire symphony, or just the finale (with the chorale), or what?

Agathon · January 25, 2003, 15:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned
Mahler's 2nd

ditto

CBSO - Rattle

and

LSO - Stokowski

Carver · January 25, 2003, 15:14

From the list, Beethoven No 5. But I voted banana, due to the glaring omissions.

Tchaikovsky No 4 is doubtlessly the best symphony of all time. The 2nd and 3rd movements are pure beauty.

Tchaikovsky No 5 is a very close second. The 1st and especially the 4th movements are the most triumphant things you will ever hear. Every time I play it I want to go conquer a country or something.

Beethoven No 5 is third. The 4th movement is truly awesome.

Since you mentioned Schubert, I will say his best symphony is No 9. Many critics say that only No 9 puts Schubert into the class of Beethoven and Mozart. Sadly, No 9 was discovered after his death so he never heard many of the accolades due him. Schubert No 9 definently belongs somewhere in numbers 4-10.