Best symphony ever? - Page 2

Agathon · January 25, 2003, 15:15

Wow - someone else who owns Havergal Brian's "Gothic" Symphony. And I thought I was the only one.

Carver · January 25, 2003, 15:26

I almost forgot (although I'm sure you didn't mean to include this) Charles-Marie Widor's Symphony for Organ No 5 in F minor. Perhaps the greatest work for organ ever. Thematic unity is very strong throughout all 5 movements, although the third is probably a weak spot in terms of musical beauty. Unfortunately, the work is very long and is consequently almost never played in public except for movement 5, the Toccata.

Alex Woehr · January 25, 2003, 16:44

Quote:

From the list, Beethoven No 5. But I voted banana, due to the glaring omissions.

Yea, but you can't really blame monkspider. There are so many good symphonies out there it's hard to remember them all.

A better question might have been: who is the greatest symphonic composer? A number of posters (including me) placed several works of a particular composer towards the top.

Asher · January 25, 2003, 17:20

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Did you download the entire symphony, or just the finale (with the chorale), or what?

I believe it's the whole thing, nearly twelve minutes long?

Agathon · January 25, 2003, 18:41

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Originally posted by Asher

I believe it's the whole thing, nearly twelve minutes long?

Not even close. The whole thing comes in at about 70 minutes long. That sounds like the last part of the final movement to me.

Best recordings IMHO - Karajan (1977), Kempe, Stokowski and Furtwangler (mono).

Incidentally, I read somewhere that one of the specifications for the CD format was that it had to be able to fit the whole of Symphony No. 9 on one disc.

Asher · January 25, 2003, 18:43

70 minutes long?? Christ.

It was all I could do to sit through the 12 minute version.

There just wasn't any flow to it for me, it seemed like he just randomly threw it together.

Boris Godunov · January 25, 2003, 20:10

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Originally posted by Asher
70 minutes long?? Christ.

Depends on the conductor, but yes. And 12 minutes sounds like the first or second movement, or an excerpt from the last (which runs about 25 minutes itself)

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It was all I could do to sit through the 12 minute version.

Most symphonies are at least 30 minutes long, dear fellow!

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There just wasn't any flow to it for me, it seemed like he just randomly threw it together.

There is nothing random about a Beethoven symphony--they are perhaps the most tightly-constructed and thematically unified symphonies ever written.

Boris Godunov · January 25, 2003, 20:12

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[SIZE=1]
Tchaikovsky No 4 is doubtlessly the best symphony of all time. The 2nd and 3rd movements are pure beauty.

Tchaikovsky No 5 is a very close second. The 1st and especially the 4th movements are the most triumphant things you will ever hear. Every time I play it I want to go conquer a country or something.

I don't think I could qualify any Tchaikovsky symphony as the best one ever, because I don't think any of them is a proper symphony. They are, rather, symphonic tone poems with several unrelated movements slapped on after them. They're a mess, in symphonic terms.

Agathon · January 25, 2003, 22:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher

There just wasn't any flow to it for me, it seemed like he just randomly threw it together.

That's the most outrageous thing you have ever written, your fanatic support of Redmond notwithstanding.

Agathon · January 25, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Depends on the conductor

Yeah, like Klemperer or Bohm - joy postponed for eternity.

Boris Godunov · January 25, 2003, 23:14

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Originally posted by Agathon

Yeah, like Klemperer or Bohm - joy postponed for eternity.

Actually, Von Karajan would get my vote for most turgid.

If you've heard the 1951 Furtwangler recording from Bayreuth? The prestissimo at the finale is so fast it's astounding.

Carver · January 25, 2003, 23:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

I don't think I could qualify any Tchaikovsky symphony as the best one ever, because I don't think any of them is a proper symphony. They are, rather, symphonic tone poems with several unrelated movements slapped on after them. They're a mess, in symphonic terms.

Well, I don't think I'm expert enough to challenge you on symphonic unity. But I will support Tchaikovsky for the greatest composer ever award. Symphonies 4 & 5, Piano Concertos 1,2 & 3, and the Violin Concerto are simply unmatched. I recommend all of you to repeatedly listen to the piano solo in movement 1 of concerto 2, absolutely unequaled brilliance and bravora.

Boris Godunov · January 25, 2003, 23:22

I've never been secretive about my strong dislike for Tchaikovsky. While he was certainly up to moments of brilliance, listening to his music leaves me with the same sensation as having just consumed too much ice cream--cold and nauseated.

Asher · January 26, 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
There is nothing random about a Beethoven symphony--they are perhaps the most tightly-constructed and thematically unified symphonies ever written.

"Organized Chaos"?

Seriously, help me out here. What all am I missing from the piece?

How come it doesn't make any sense to me, musically? It's all over the place. It's fast, it's slow, it's fast, it's slow, it's loud, it's quiet, it's louder, it's somewhat quiet, and then it crescendos, crescendos, cresendos...

How can people tell this is tightly constructed and not completely random? Do we have any evidence to the contrary of him not being a drug addict?

Boris Godunov · January 26, 2003, 10:53

Asher, catch me on windows messenger and send me the file so I know exactly what part you are listening to.

It doesn't make sense musically to you because you don't know the style and structure of the piece.

And music that is all the same tempo and dynamic is boooooooring.

Agathon · January 26, 2003, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Actually, Von Karajan would get my vote for most turgid.

If you've heard the 1951 Furtwangler recording from Bayreuth? The prestissimo at the finale is so fast it's astounding.

That was the Furtwangler recording I meant - now remastered by EMI and sounding really nice.

I happen to like Karajan's 1977 version, Kempe's from the early 70's is an underrated recording.

Another fine symphony left off the list is Shostakovich 5 - Stokowski and the Stadium Symphony Orchestra of New York make a pretty good job of it.

Anyway, who needs any of these symphonies when one has Fritz Reiner's 1955 recording of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and Stravinsky's own recording of the Rite of Spring?

Boris Godunov · January 27, 2003, 00:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
Stravinsky's own recording of the Rite of Spring?

You're joking about this one, right? It's awful! The man was a genius as a composer, but he is **** as a conductor. Oy!

monkspider · January 27, 2003, 00:18

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Originally posted by Agathon
...and Stravinsky's own recording of the Rite of Spring?

Wow, I didn't even know such a recording existed, how interesting.

Boris Godunov · January 27, 2003, 00:26

There are a few recordings of some of the composers conducting their own music. One interesting recording is of Enrico Caruso singing "Vesti la giubba" from I Pagliacci by Leoncavallo, with Leoncavallo himself accompanying him on the piano. I think there are some recordings of Leoncavallo conducting his own works as well.

Grrr · January 27, 2003, 01:38

Said it before ... will say it again:

Gótecki's Symphony No.3

Agathon · January 27, 2003, 18:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

You're joking about this one, right? It's awful! The man was a genius as a composer, but he is **** as a conductor. Oy!

I reckong he's great, but only conducting his own stuff. I think his Columbia recording of the Rite is wonderful, the only one I prefer is the Markevitch on Testament (I still have the vinyl of both).

Ned · January 27, 2003, 19:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
70 minutes long?? Christ.

It was all I could do to sit through the 12 minute version.

There just wasn't any flow to it for me, it seemed like he just randomly threw it together.

Asher, try Mahler's 2nd. Three No. 1 votes here even though it was not on the original list. Or better yet, find out where it is playing live. That will really be a treat.

My most memorable experience ever listening to music is when I heard this symphony played one summer at the Hollywood Bowl. To those who have heard it, they had the trumpets arrayed offstage to the left and right, and high above to the rear. When those trumpets sounded out in the 5th movement, it was simply unreal. It was alsmost like being in the heaven that Mahler was trying to paint with his music.

Alex Woehr · January 27, 2003, 21:44

Ned, I would not try steering him towards Mahler yet, least of all his 2nd. It is not for the faint of ear. If he has trouble with Beethoven, imagine him listening to the first half of the fifth movement!

cavebear · January 27, 2003, 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

None of which are symphonies, so none of which would qualify for the poll.

Oh fine, be a noodge! If it is old and it uses only instuments, I call it a symphony.

cavebear · January 27, 2003, 22:05

Was it Ravel's Bolero or Stravinsky's Rites of Spring that caused a riot in the debut audience? Whichever, I like them both.

Edited to add that Bolero started on my CD carousel serendipitously just as I sent the original post.

Boris Godunov · January 27, 2003, 23:55

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Originally posted by cavebear
Oh fine, be a noodge! If it is old and it uses only instuments, I call it a symphony.

Well, I only pointed out because monkspider was clearly looking for the best symphony, and it is a specific thing, not just an old piece of music that uses only instruments.

Besides, several, like the Beethoven 9th and the Mahler 2nd, use vocalists, too!

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Was it Ravel's Bolero or Stravinsky's Rites of Spring that caused a riot in the debut audience? Whichever, I like them both.

That would be the Rite of Spring, when it premiered at the Opera de Paris in 1912. A fist fight broke out in the audience between detractors and admirers, and it spilled out into the streets. Stravinsky, Najinsky et al fled to the Bois de Boulogne, smoked cigars and seemed quite...pleased...with the reception. Controversy is a good thing, you see.

Bolero, interestingly enough, was never really intended to be a concert piece. Ravel wrote it purely as an exercise in orchestration. It was to his eternal dismay that it became the most popular piece he ever wrote. His and mine, actually, as it drives me friggin' nuts!