Exidus of Jews from France reaches record levels. - Page 2

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 05:53

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"Of course, no Synagogues have been burned in France. Jewish people have no reason to start to look for the exits. Of course not."

Well, let's look at how many jews get killed in acts of antisemitic violence:

EU: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all)
US: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all)
Israel: 100? 200? (unfortunately over the last years)

So why is Israel such an antisemitic country?

Yup, them Israelis are burnin the Synagogues at a torid pace. Man they are bad antisemites.

Why is it hard for you to accept that some Jewish people would start to get nervous when their places of worship are targeted by their 'countrymen'?

Geez, thats never happened before.

Oerdin · January 24, 2003, 05:53

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Well, let's look at how many jews get killed in acts of antisemitic violence:

EU: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all)
US: 0 (unfortunately 0 just in most years, not all)
Israel: 100? 200? (unfortunately over the last years)

As stated in the BBC article there was a rash of antisemitic attacks last year and an assination of a French Jewish leader.

Pekka · January 24, 2003, 05:56

I find it disgusting to always blame the whole europe for something happening in one european country. I don't know what's happening in France, but saying we're all nazis is racist.

Aaglo, there is a large Jewish community here in finland too, but naturally small compared to other european countries. Now, I can say honestly and with my heart that there is no problem what so ever that Jews could face in here, since we don't make separations with religions and stuff like that. We don't consider our Jews as Jews, but more like Finns. You can all shout your Nazi complaints all you want, but until you find even ONE Jew here who is backing you up, it's useless. There is a synagogue near where I live, I've never seen any problems what so ever. Not even the slightest bit. So please do target your blames more accurately, because I do feel offended everytime this happens. Go on and bash europe as bunch of gay sissies who drink tea all day long and discuss abount paintings and then have sex with each others hairy bodies with bad teeth, but don't bring that Nazi thing here with generalisations, it's not appreciated.

Though I have to say there are some problems with racism towards African guys, but that goes for the gang members mostly, and it's not that bad, just some ethnic groups have formed gangs and they have their own disputes.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:03

Good point Pekka. I doubt that all of Europe suffers the same circumstances as France. I honestly believe that many French would have it be otherwise, but it is not.

Oerdin · January 24, 2003, 06:12

It's not a Europe wide phenomenon and I think Ned was just so upset by what he's seen reported that he got mad and made a blanket statement. I'm sure he doesn't really think all of Europe is racist even if he did type it.

I also don't think the French are going to rewarm the ovens, so to speak, but never the less there seems to be a considerable amount of lingering cultural bigotry.

HershOstropoler · January 24, 2003, 06:15

"Yup, them Israelis are burnin the Synagogues at a torid pace. Man they are bad antisemites."

That is what your logic implies.

"Why is it hard for you to accept that some Jewish people would start to get nervous when their places of worship are targeted by their 'countrymen'?"

Not at all hard to understand. Just try to get that the level of antisemitic violence is not a benchmark for antisemitic sentiment. Israel is suffering a high level of antisemitic violence mostly from "outside". Austria for example has a low level of antisemitic violence, but an average level of antisemitic sentiment. Or, since 1990, about 60.000-100.000 jews mostly from the CIS states have migrated to Germany. For the "exodus"-argument, will you tell me that the inflow shows there is no antisemitism in Germany ?

Pekka · January 24, 2003, 06:18

Yeah. It's like Rumsfeld said 'when you think of Europe, you think of Germany and France'.

It's sometimes forgotten how different Europe is in itself. We are so different from each other, it's not just a myth

. We differ in every possible thing there is.

First shock to me when I came to internet was when most of the people thought we were some Russian province, or at least something like that. Couldn't be any more wrong.
I don't know that much about France as I should, but I think there have been some problems with immigrants and those issues for longer time. I don't know about racism in France or anti-semitics.. at least there are movies about it!

But I know other countries good, and some of these claims just won't fit at all!

Sure, France and Germany are big power in Europe, but smaller countries shouldn't be considered as their servants and that they're the same, only poorer.
It's the same thing everytime, and I wouldn't have the energy to defend it, except that everytime I get called Nazi, as european, I don't think of flowers and love and small cute bunnies.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:19

Uhhhh, Roland, the thread is about events in France.

HershOstropoler · January 24, 2003, 06:21

a) Some have expanded it to Europe as a whole
b) Comparisons can be used to expose the flaws in the anti-french argument

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:26

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
a) Some have expanded it to Europe as a whole

They are bigots, most likely.

Quote:

b) Comparisons can be used to expose the flaws in the anti-french argument

I think I will pay a lot of heed to the confirmed reports of antisemetic activities in France. Sorry, your stats can wait.

CerberusIV · January 24, 2003, 06:27

There isn't one simple issue about racism. In the UK there are several strands of racism.

Crime - a perception of crime, particularly drugs and gun crime associated with Afro-caribbean people.

Immigration - economic refugees coming in and getting money, education and healthcare as a priority over poorer people who are UK citizens.

Ignorance - suspicion of people who speak a different language and don't mix socially or economically with the majority.

It isn't going to go away overnight and I suspect most of these points are issues in countries around the world, not just in Europe.

The problem jews face is not about the perception of local jews in France or any other european country, it is about perceptions of Israel. Until the 1980's Israel was presented as protecting jews and was seen as a safe haven necessary to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. Now we get images showing Israel oppressing Palestinian arabs and it is a much higher profile race issue. This gives the small-minded thugs who carry out racist attacks a target. If it wasn't jews it would be (and has been) muslims or sikhs that these people go for.

I doubt if the media image of Israel troubles the Israeli government much if it brings in more jewish immigrants and as long as the US continues to sign loan guarantees.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:27

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither They are bigots, most likely.

Or they are simply ignorant.

HershOstropoler · January 24, 2003, 06:32

No, they can't wait. Media focus is one thing, reality often another. IIRC the FBI counts 4 antisemitic hatecrimes per day in the US. Barely makes the media. Of course, if you want to believe the world is mostly inhabited by crazy mass murderers, fine...

Before the recent eruptions of violence in France, there is no indication that a jew in France had a higher risk of being victimized than a jew in the US. How things compare now I do not know, I assume it became worse.

But for the conclusion on general antisemitic sentiment, you would have to explain what has suddenly changed. Or is it perhabs just that a particular segment of antisemites has turned violent.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:34

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV
The problem jews face is not about the perception of local jews in France or any other european country, it is about perceptions of Israel. Until the 1980's Israel was presented as protecting jews and was seen as a safe haven necessary to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. Now we get images showing Israel oppressing Palestinian arabs and it is a much higher profile race issue. This gives the small-minded thugs who carry out racist attacks a target. If it wasn't jews it would be (and has been) muslims or sikhs that these people go for.

I doubt if the media image of Israel troubles the Israeli government much if it brings in more jewish immigrants and as long as the US continues to sign loan guarantees.

All Jews are Israelis and should suffer for the actions of Israel? That, sir, is exactly the root of the problem. Thank you for highlighting it.

Might as well say that all Catholics are slaves of the Pope. I doubt they are, but Northern Europe had a good go-round on that point.

You wish to tolerate this shiete? I do not. I will not suffer those who do, either.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 06:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
an assination of a French Jewish leader.

Plain wrong. Who? Can you tell us a name before reproducing example of crap journalism?

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 06:45

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Of course, if you want to believe the world is mostly But for the conclusion on general antisemitic sentiment, you would have to explain what has suddenly changed. Or is it perhabs just that a particular segment of antisemites has turned violent.

Well, maybe people from France could explain better than I...

http://aufbauonline.com/2002/issue8/pages8/15.1.html

Thursday, APRIL 18, 2002

In France, Vandalism of Synagogues Is Not New

Worst Incidents in Europe Against Jews

By Elizabeth Press

Attacks on synagogues in Strasbourg, Paris, Marseille, Montpellier, and Lyon, as well as on a Jewish school bus in a Parisian suburb, are all part of an upsurge of violence against Jews in France. The most brutal attack took place in Marseille where the Or Aviv synagogue was burnt down on the night of March 31.
This is the greatest wave of anti-Semitic violence since World War II. “It gives me the chills and I don’t want to stay in this damned country,” says Melisa Cahn, who works in Paris, but is originally from Strasbourg. She has walked through many pro-Palestinian demonstrations and is afraid to wear a Jewish star for fear of unnecessary trouble. Her desire to leave France, though, is “not out of fear, but disgust … that all these anti-Israeli feelings have turned into anti-Semitism.”
France is the European country with the worst backlash against its Jewish community in terms of violence in response to the Middle East crisis. These acts, however, are not committed by far-right extremists. Furthermore, both the government and most non-Jewish citizens universally condemn them. Instead, the hatred comes from certain members of the Arab populace. “These are not anti-Semitic acts, but anti-Zionist acts. It is the reaction against the situation in the Middle East,” said Emmanuelle Arnould, a student of political science from the Lorraine region. “France is the country with the biggest Arab population and since De Gaulle it has followed a pro-Arab foreign policy.”

Issues were swept
under the rug

Unlike the Germans, the French took many years to come to terms with their dark history of collaboration and anti-Semitism. These issues were swept under the rug and hardly dealt with as a matter of national concern after World War II when Charles de Gaulle glamourized the French resistance.
On top of this, waves of Arab immigrants arrived after the war and were never integrated into mainstream French society. Many of their children have grown up to become part of a marginalized and underprivileged population. Both their frustrations about their lives in France and their anger about the oppression of the Palestinians play a role in the French Arabs’ hostility to the Jews, a numerically weaker minority. Ms. Arnould also attributes the violence to incompetent law enforcement. The vandalism of synagogues and other places by young people is no new phenomenon in France. Police often turn a blind eye to petty crime, she claims, and criminals are often not sent to jail. Although the intensification of violence in France is recent, it is only the tip of an iceberg that has been under the surface for decades.

Oerdin · January 24, 2003, 06:47

Quote:

while just a few weeks ago a liberal Rabbi in Paris was stabbed and had his car set on fire for reasons which remain obscure.

I'm try to figure out this guy's name but I remember reading a Los Angles Times article about it when it happened and apparently this rabbi was a major political organizer for the French Jewish community. Also nothing was stolen so robbery doesn't seem to be the motive more likely it was a planned political killing by neo-nazis or other anti-semetic group.

CerberusIV · January 24, 2003, 06:48

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither You wish to tolerate this shiete? I do not. I will not suffer those who do, either.

No, I don't wish to tolerate it, but too many people either won't speak up or don't believe that it will make a difference if they do.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 06:51

notyou, your level of knowledge on the issue is abysmal, you just babble on the crap you've read.Cerberus has mad good points, I'll expand and try to educate you.

1) there is, in France and in most of the world, a residus level of anti semitism, from Le Pen to KKK. I do not know why, but that's the case. It's not France specific.

2) since the ME 'events' Sharon has been playing up the 'anti semitic' issue in France, to continue with his strategy of polarizing jews (and not only israeli) against all those who disagree with his policies. Fortunately many isr. and many jews do not, but the community pressure to support the state of Israel in times of danger is very strong. So the media spin on this, esp in anglo saxon media, comes from here, and the good old french bashing you guy love so much. I swear I've been reading the Economist for 10 years and NOT ****ING ONCE I've I seen a positive comments on France. I don't know what's the measure of objectivity, but that ain't it. And yes I keep reading it, but I also like to get whiped on the a**, dressed in black leather.

3) violence against Synagogue has been very symbolic, no dead, very limited damages. It's been hugely shocking, for good reasons, because we all thought the jewish community was very well integrated here (after all, they gave us many prime ministers). Another explanation for over media exposure and sense of shock. This is positive to talk about it, but not distort facts.

4) finally, petty crimes from the suburds, where we have left our arabs communities in a crap situation, plugged itself on the ME event. Some young unemployed arabs feel aggrieved for Palestine, and know no better than insult jews. That's crap, we should tackle that and we are, but that's not the 'old' european antisemitic (the oven type, as put very elegantly by someone here) media claim it is. It is a social problem (for which we french have full responsibility) plugging itself on a perception of international affairs.

Don't buy all that CNN force feed you. Media is an industry, with its own agenda, and exposing complex social interactions in 1 mn of broadcast or 20 lines takes too much efforts for most.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 06:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

I'm try to figure out this guy's name but I remember reading a Los Angles Times article about it when it happened and apparently this rabbi was a major political organizer for the French Jewish community. Also nothing was stolen so robbery doesn't seem to be the motive more likely it was a planned political killing by neo-nazis or other anti-semetic group.

check your facts. The rabbi was lightly stabbed, and after a quick check at the hospital, he walked away, celebrating the day after an eocumenic ceremony with christians and muslim against this type of violence. BTW, he is also a very liberal rabbi that has been accused to be too softs on arabs. Nobody know why he was singled out.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 06:57

and fianally thanks for providing this piece of crap journalism I was refering too : Ms Press didn't do her homework, despite 'dwelling in the dark past of French history'. About 6 years ago, Chirac made a ground breaking speech to admit the responsibility of the French state (and just not of Vichy, as was the case before) in the WWII events, and asking for forgiveness. It was hailed by french jews as the final symbolic gesture to heal the past.

Miss Press should check the treatment of arabs here, it's much more scandalous. But who gives a fly about arabs anyway, esp. today....

HershOstropoler · January 24, 2003, 07:05

NYE:

"Well, maybe people from France could explain better than I..."

That's an odd article. On the one hand:

"These acts, however, are not committed by far-right extremists. Furthermore, both the government and most non-Jewish citizens universally condemn them. Instead, the hatred comes from certain members of the Arab populace."

And then she's getting her klit in a twist to "traditional" french antisemitism:

"These issues were swept under the rug and hardly dealt with as a matter of national concern after World War II when Charles de Gaulle glamourized the French resistance."

Which is supposed to tell us that the french dealing with Vichy etc makes arabs antisemitic?

It's quite pointless. Most surveys give you a bedrock of antisemites in western countries of something like 15-20 %. You only get larger deviations when the questions and results are structured to count reservations against zionism as antisemitism.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 07:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Maroule
notyou, your level of knowledge on the issue is abysmal, you just babble on the crap you've read.Cerberus has mad good points, I'll expand and try to educate you.

Maroule, your level of acceptance of crap is crap. You just babble on the crap your press has fed you. Many people make good points, if you listen you may be educated.

Quote:

1) there is, in France and in most of the world, a residus level of anti semitism, from Le Pen to KKK. I do not know why, but that's the case. It's not France specific.

It seems to be France they are moving away from. Not in huge numbers, percentage wise, but many do not feel safe. That's not my fault, buddy. It's not yours either, most likely. But it's happening in your country. What are you going to do about it?

Quote:

2) since the ME 'events' Sharon has been playing up the 'anti semitic' issue in France, to continue with his strategy of polarizing jews (and not only israeli) against all those who disagree with his policies. Fortunately many isr. and many jews do not, but the community pressure to support the state of Israel in times of danger is very strong. So the media spin on this, esp in anglo saxon media, comes from here, and the good old french bashing you guy love so much. I swear I've been reading the Economist for 10 years and NOT ****ING ONCE I've I seen a positive comments on France. I don't know what's the measure of objectivity, but that ain't it. And yes I keep reading it, but I also like to get whiped on the a**, dressed in black leather.

Oh sure. 'They' are the problem...

Well, that is a bit polemic. Not much value there. Let's move on.

Quote:

3) violence against Synagogue has been very symbolic, no dead, very limited damages. It's been hugely shocking, for good reasons, because we all thought the jewish community was very well integrated here (after all, they gave us many prime ministers). Another explanation for over media exposure and sense of shock. This is positive to talk about it, but not distort facts.

You feel shocked. Great. They feel unsafe. They are beginning to move. Do you honestly blame them?

Quote:

4) finally, petty crimes from the suburds, where we have left our arabs communities in a crap situation, plugged itself on the ME event. Young unemployed arabs feel aggrieved for Palestine, and know no better than insult jews. That's crap, we should tackle that and we are, but that's not the 'old' european antisemitic (the oven type, as put very elegantly by someone here) media claim it is. It is a social problem plugging itself on a perception of international affairs.

Don't buy all that CNN force feed you. Media is an industry, with its own agenda, and exposing complex social interactions in 1 mn of broadcast or 20 lines takes too much efforts for most.

Again, the problem is not with what most French people want or feel, the problem is with what the antisemites are doing. You may excuse it as just the angst of underpriviledged migrants. I don't. I don't have any patience for antisemitism of any kind for any reason. Do you think Jewish people should be more tolerant? Why?

I don't watch cnn much, btw.

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 07:16

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
You only get larger deviations when the questions and results are structured to count reservations against zionism as antisemitism.

Blaming a Jew in some town for Zionism is racism, in most cases.

HershOstropoler · January 24, 2003, 07:27

1. It's not necessarily "blaming" any jew. You can be antizionist and solely "blame" the Israeli political establishment.
2. if that is the case though, that for a person antizionism goes hand in hand with antisemitism, there are enough other questions to detect the antisemitism

notyoueither · January 24, 2003, 07:34

the recent eruptions of violence in France

I think that is what is distressing, Roland.

Oerdin · January 24, 2003, 07:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Maroule
and the good old french bashing you guy love so much.

Yes, we do like French bashing. You see when the anti-American posts start coming fast and thick we Yanks know that by starting a French bashing thread everyone will lose interest in us and will team up against the French.

It is a good destraction and best of all everyone, except the French, find it fun.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 07:35

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

"Maroule, your level of acceptance of crap is crap. You just babble on the crap your press has fed you. Many people make good points, if you listen you may be educated."

unfortunately, most of the points here from french bashers have been heard on TV, second hand. I'd love to have a french jew in the debate, at least the discussion would go somewhere. And my press don't feed me, it's as crap (and sometimes a lot crappier) than yours.

"It seems to be France they are moving away from. Not in huge numbers, percentage wise, but many do not feel safe. That's not my fault, buddy. It's not yours either, most likely. But it's happening in your country. What are you going to do about it?"

Many frenchmen do not feel safe, many americans do not feel safe, the world is not a very safe place these days. What do I do about it? about as much as you, I babble on forums.

"Oh sure. 'They' are the problem...

Well, that is a bit polemic. Not much value there. Let's move on."

I hope for your mental sanity that you don't think media in general are very reliable. I hope you question, at times, what you're being told instead of just rolling eyes.

"You feel shocked. Great. They feel unsafe. They are beginning to move. Do you honestly blame them?"

It's not for me to blame anybody, and the right to 'vote with your feet' is on the very top of my list. Now, if I had to relocate somewhere, and had the parameter of danger in mind, I wouldn't go to the US or Israel. France is a much safer place, whether you're jew or not.

"Again, the problem is not with what most French people want or feel, the problem is with what the antisemites are doing. You may excuse it as just the angst of underpriviledged migrants. I don't. I don't have any patience for antisemitism of any kind for any reason. Do you think Jewish people should be more tolerant? Why?"

I don't remember asking Jews to be more tolerant. I'm trying to explain that what you're being force fed is a gross and insulting exageration of the truth. I don't minimise anti semitism, we should have zero tolerance for that, but again, in France today, the most pressing/shocking social problems are not related to jews. It's as simple as that.

Maroule · January 24, 2003, 07:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

Yes, we do like French bashing. You see when the anti-American posts start coming fast and thick we Yanks know that by starting a French bashing thread everyone will lose interest in us and will team up against the French.

It is a good destraction and best of all everyone, except the French, find it fun.

actually, I don't mind so much, 90% of it is silly or fun, but you have 10% of anger, real spite, that I can't explain myself.

Besides, if it's the price to poke americains, I'll gladly pay it

Goingonit · January 24, 2003, 08:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Maroule
and fianally thanks for providing this piece of crap journalism I was refering too : Ms Press didn't do her homework, despite 'dwelling in the dark past of French history'. About 6 years ago, Chirac made a ground breaking speech to admit the responsibility of the French state (and just not of Vichy, as was the case before) in the WWII events, and asking for forgiveness. It was hailed by french jews as the final symbolic gesture to heal the past.

I think rather it was the first gesture. The next one is to stop burning down synagogues, but maybe that won't happen because it's not symbolic enough for you?

And the point in the article till stands. France is finally (6 years ago) coming to terms with its history (the worst parts of which started 63 years ago).