Who's Nukes should we worry about?

[Sava]

U.S. Weighs Tactical Nuclear Strike on Iraq
By Paul Richter
Times Staff Writer

Saturday 25 January 2003

For what one defense analyst says is a worst-case scenario, planners are studying the use of atomic bombs on deeply buried targets.

WASHINGTON -- As the Pentagon continues a highly visible buildup of troops and weapons in the Persian Gulf, it is also quietly preparing for the possible use of nuclear weapons in a war against Iraq, according to a report by a defense analyst.

Although they consider such a strike unlikely, military planners have been actively studying lists of potential targets and considering options, including the possible use of so-called bunker-buster nuclear weapons against deeply buried military targets, says analyst William M. Arkin, who writes a regular column on defense matters for The Times.

Military officials have been focusing their planning on the use of tactical nuclear arms in retaliation for a strike by the Iraqis with chemical or biological weapons, or to preempt one, Arkin says. His report, based on interviews and a review of official documents, appears in a column that will be published in The Times on Sunday.

Administration officials believe that in some circumstances, nuclear arms may offer the only way to destroy deeply buried targets that may contain unconventional weapons that could kill thousands.

Some officials have argued that the blast and radiation effects of such strikes would be limited.

But that is in dispute. Critics contend that a bunker-buster strike could involve a huge radiation release and dangerous blast damage. They also say that use of a nuclear weapon in such circumstances would encourage other nuclear-armed countries to consider using such weapons in more kinds of situations and would badly undermine the half-century effort to contain the spread of nuclear arms.

Although it may be highly unlikely that the Bush administration would authorize the use of such weapons in Iraq -- Arkin describes that as a worst-case scenario -- the mere disclosure of its planning contingencies could stiffen the opposition of France, Germany and Middle East nations to an invasion of Iraq.

"If the United States dropped a bomb on an Arab country, it might be a military success, but it would be a diplomatic, political and strategic disaster," said Joseph Cirincione, director of nonproliferation studies at the Carnegie Endowment for Interna- tional Peace in Washington.

He said there is a danger of the misuse of a nuclear weapon in Iraq because of the chance that "somebody could be seduced into the mistaken idea that you could use a nuclear weapon with minimal collateral damage and political damage."

In the last year, Bush administration officials have repeatedly made clear that they want to be better prepared to consider the nuclear option against the threat of "weapons of mass destruction" in the hands of terrorists and rogue nations. The current planning, as reported by Arkin, offers a concrete example of their determination to follow through on this pledge.

Arkin also says that the Pentagon has changed the bureaucratic oversight of nuclear weapons so that they are no longer treated as a special category of arms but are grouped with conventional military options.

A White House spokesman declined to comment Friday on Arkin's report, except to say that "the United States reserves the right to defend itself and its allies by whatever means necessary."

Consideration of the nuclear option has defenders.

David J. Smith, an arms control negotiator in the first Bush administration, said presidents would consider using such a weapon only "in terribly ugly situations where there are no easy ways out. If there's a threat that could involve huge numbers of American lives, I as a citizen would want the president to consider that option."

Smith defended the current administration's more assertive public pronouncements on the subject, saying that weapons have a deterrent value only "if the other guy really believes you might use them."

Other administrations have warned that they might use nuclear weapons in circumstances short of an all-out atomic war.

In January 1991, before the Persian Gulf War, Secretary of State James A. Baker III warned Iraqi diplomat Tarik Aziz in a letter that the American people would "demand the strongest possible response" to a use of chemical or biological weapons. The Clinton administration made a similar warning to the Libyans regarding the threat from a chemical plant.

But officials of this administration have placed greater emphasis on such possibilities and have stated that preemptive strikes may sometimes be needed to safeguard Americans against adversaries who cannot be deterred, such as terrorists, or against dictators, such as Saddam Hussein.

Instead of making such a warning from time to time as threats arise, the Bush administration "has set it out as a general principle, and backed it up by explaining what has changed in the world," Smith said.

In a policy statement issued only last month, the White House said the United States "will continue to make clear that it reserves the right to respond with overwhelming force -- including through resort to all of our options -- to the use of weapons of mass destruction against the United States."

One year ago, the administration completed a classified Nuclear Posture Review that said nuclear weapons should be considered against targets able to withstand conventional attack; in retaliation for an attack with nuclear, chemical or biological weapons; or "in the event of surprising military developments." And it identified seven countries -- China, Russia, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Libya and Syria -- as possible targets.

The same report called on the government to develop smaller nuclear weapons for possible use in some battlefield situations. Both the United States and Russia already have stockpiles of such tactical weapons, which are often small enough to be carried by one or two people yet can exceed the power of the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima, Japan, in World War II.

The administration has since been pushing Congress to pay for a study of how to build a smaller, more effective version of a 6-year-old nuclear bunker-buster bomb called the B-61 Mod 11. Critics maintain that the administration's eagerness for this study shows officials' desire to move toward building new weapons and to end the decade-old voluntary freeze on nuclear testing.

The B-61 is considered ineffective because it can burrow only 20 feet before detonating. The increasingly sophisticated underground command posts and weapon storage facilities being built by some countries are far deeper than that. And the closer to the surface a nuclear device explodes, the greater the risk of the spread of radiation.

The reported yield of B-61 devices in U.S. inventory varies from less than 1 kiloton of TNT to more than 350. The Hiroshima bomb was 20 kilotons.

Discussion of new weapons has set off a heated argument among experts on the value and effects of smaller-yield nuclear weapons.

Some Pentagon officials contend that the nation could develop nuclear weapons that could burrow deep enough to destroy hardened targets. But some independent physicists have argued that such a device would barely penetrate the surface while blowing out huge amounts of radioactive dirt that would pollute the region around it with a deadly fallout.

Wade Boese of the Arms Control Assn. in Washington said there is no evidence that conventional arms wouldn't be just as effective in reaching deeply buried targets.

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.)

I think it's silly that the US considers pre-emptively striking Iraq because it might have nukes. But on top of that, the US is considering using nukes. This is a disgusting display of hypocrisy. Sure, I worry about Saddam and what he might do if he had the bomb. And I certainly don't feel comfortable with a lot of other countries that have the bomb. But the US needs to set an example for the world to follow, and the use of tactical nukes and preemption is not an example I want other countries to follow.

[oedo]

once a democracy uses nukes, a line will be crossed.
other leaders, dictators, terrorists, maybe even democracies will follow. I hope the US administration is intelligent enough to know that.
plus: there is absolutely no need for a super power like the US to use nukes.

[JohnT]

Mine.

[DaShi]

JohnT's

[Goingonit]

They have plans to do lots of things that they won't. I'm sure they also have a contingency plan for nuking Russia, say, or invading Egypt, or using WMD to defend Taiwan, but that just means they can, not that they will.

[Pekka]

Nah. the US is not going to use nukes in pre-emptive strikes.. I don't believe it will happen.. just talk. Make Saddam feel more threatened and all that.
I don't support that kind of action at all, and I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Sava]

According to Nixon's own secret tapes, he wanted to use nukes in Vietnam. If the Iraqi people resist the US action (if there is action at all), you can bet your ass this will turn into another Vietnam. Or what if Saddam launches a WMD attack on Israel? Israel has already said it will retaliate. And all of Israel's nukes are "Made in the USA".

I don't think that the US will go so far as to use nukes, but the fact that they "reserve the right to nuke" scares me and says a lot about how responsible and moral American leaders are.

[Zylka]

WHO'S GRAMMAR & NOTATION SHOULD WORRYING US BE ABOUT THEM - SAVA YOU ARE ROCKS OPINION

[Sava]

[Nubclear]

We should worry about the following countries using nuclear weapons:

PAKISTAN (against India, against US)
INDIA (against Pakistan, against China)
CHINA (against Taiwan, against US, against India)
North Korea (against US)
United States (against Iraq, against US)

[Timexwatch]

Originally posted by Sava
According to Nixon's own secret tapes, he wanted to use nukes in Vietnam. If the Iraqi people resist the US action (if there is action at all), you can bet your ass this will turn into another Vietnam. Or what if Saddam launches a WMD attack on Israel? Israel has already said it will retaliate. And all of Israel's nukes are "Made in the USA".

I don't think that the US will go so far as to use nukes, but the fact that they "reserve the right to nuke" scares me and says a lot about how responsible and moral American leaders are.

IIRC, didn't the Frogs give the Isrealis nukes, not the USA?

[Sava]

I don't think there are many uranium mines in France...

[Edan]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

United States (against Iraq, against US)

That's some pretty bad aiming.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Timexwatch


IIRC, didn't the Frogs give the Isrealis nukes, not the USA?

Yes.

[Japher]

PAKISTAN (against India, against US)
INDIA (against Pakistan, against China)
CHINA (against Taiwan, against US, against India)
North Korea (against US)
United States (against Iraq, against US)

Look at all the enemies we have! We might even nuke ourselves! Now that would be a shot in the foot.

I think we need to worry about our nukes the most, and then we should look in JohnT's basement.

[Zylka]

(I guess a nation needs uranium mines to transfer nukes to another, now!)

Oh darling, you're not fun enough! This thread looked so good with our special matching outfits...

[Sava]

Let me elaborate for some of our slower Apolytoners ... USA builds nukes, gives them to France who passes them on to Israel. And I'm sure with the billions of dollars of arms the US has given to Israel, there must be a few nukes there.

[KrazyHorse]

Uh huh. The US builds nukes for the French? First I'd heard of it.

I don't think there are many uranium mines in France...

How many do you think there are in the US?

You get your uranium from Africa and Canada, IIRC...

[Sava]

Probably not anymore... the point being, the technology came from America.

[Timexwatch]

Maybe Sava should take off his tinfoil hat and realize that the U.S. hasn't been the only supporter of Israel...

[Edan]

Originally posted by Sava
the technology came from America.

No, it didn't.

[KrazyHorse]

Sava, the French developed their own nuclear technology. Once the fifties rolled around there was enough general knowledge of nuclear physics etc. that any industrialised nation with the will to do it could develop a substantial nuclear arsenal.

[KrazyHorse]

France and Israel in the 60s were possibly closer than the US and Israel in the 60s. They'd just been cobelligerants, after all...

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Sava
Let me elaborate for some of our slower Apolytoners ... USA builds nukes, gives them to France who passes them on to Israel. And I'm sure with the billions of dollars of arms the US has given to Israel, there must be a few nukes there.

So in other words... it's a CONSPIRACY!!!

US builds nukes from the uranium mines in downtown Houston -> US gives nukes to France in exchange for Statue of Liberty -> France forwards nukes to Israel with USA label crossed out in red, with FRANCE label crossed out in red, with GOVERNMENT OF ZION ANTI-CHR chalked sloppily across remaining face -> Israel targets Mecca with nukes when innocent Palestinian baby convention arrives there -> Nukes intercept signals from US; of secret plans to put fluoride in our free range chickens and A STEALTH MONITORING DEVICE IN MY BACK TEETH

[Sava]

okay fine I'm wrong... jesus F christ... I love how this irrelevant tangent just spewed from my error...

[Andrew1999]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
We should worry about the following countries using nuclear weapons:

PAKISTAN (against India, against US)
INDIA (against Pakistan, against China)
CHINA (against Taiwan, against US, against India)
North Korea (against US)
United States (against Iraq, against US)

The Russians are conspicuously absent from that list. Come on, there's got to be someone you want to nuke.

[Harel]

Originally posted by Sava
According to Nixon's own secret tapes, he wanted to use nukes in Vietnam. If the Iraqi people resist the US action (if there is action at all), you can bet your ass this will turn into another Vietnam. Or what if Saddam launches a WMD attack on Israel? Israel has already said it will retaliate. And all of Israel's nukes are "Made in the USA".

Actually, none of Israel nukes are made in the USA. Or even remotly related to the US.

[Master Zen]

French nukes were not solely thanks to US technology since after the war the US refused to share any of the technology even with allies like the British who made considerable contributions to the Manhattan Project.

Saying the French nuke technology came from the US is like saying the US nukes are thanks to european technology because it was mostly emigré european scientists who developed it.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Edan


No, it didn't.

There some reports that LBJ gave the Israelis the bomb after the 67 war.

[Harel]

Originally posted by Joseph
There some reports that LBJ gave the Israelis the bomb after the 67 war.

No one gave Israel anything. Israel atomic research is indpendent, entirely, and does not originate neither in France or in America. Israel had atomic reactors for purposes of study even before the establishment of the nuclear reactor in Dimona.

Israeli and jewish scientists pioneered many parts of nuclear technology, both military and civilian. No one "gave israel the bomb" anymore then someone gave it to Russia.