Old Europe left out in the cold?

Drake Tungsten · January 30, 2003, 06:19

Quote:

LONDON, England -- Eight European leaders have backed U.S. President George W. Bush calling for tough action to force Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to disarm, breaking ranks with France and Germany.

In an article in Britain's Times newspaper and several other papers in Europe and America, the leaders of EU members Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Denmark and applicants Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, appealed for unity in the bloc.

"The transatlantic relationship must not become a casualty of the current Iraqi regime's persistent attempts to threaten world security," the eight leaders wrote. "Our strength lies in unity.

"The Iraqi regime and its weapons of mass destruction represent a clear threat to world security," the premiers wrote in a thinly-veiled appeal to doubters French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to join up.

The newspaper article signed by Britain's Tony Blair, Italy's Silvio Berlusconi, Spain's Jose Maria Aznar, Portugal's Jose Barroso, Denmark's Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Czech Republic's Vaclav Havel, Poland's Leszek Miller and Hungary's Peter Medgyessy was hailed by the Bush administration as evidence of wider support in Europe than had been reported.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...ers/index.html

There are intelligent people left in Europe, it seems.

What do you guys think will come of this? Will France and Germany continue to drive a wedge in the transatlantic relationship? Or will they come around to the side of justice? They better hope that they don't end up on the losing end on this or the balance of power in Europe may undergo a shift...

Lancer · January 30, 2003, 06:26

Yes! Looks like Germany and France took a major blow to their leadership positions in the EU, all because they want to be independant of the US. I guess the rest of europe isn't wandering around w/ identity issues.

HershOstropoler · January 30, 2003, 06:29

An interesting episode. Let's forget Berlusconi, he's just an idiot who might ramble into the exactly opposite direction tomorrow.

The ones who're driving a wedge into the transatlantic relationship are Bush and co.

If you read carefully, the "backed U.S. President George W. Bush" is less than lukewarm. They put an emphasis on fighting terrorism, on disarming Iraq, and the security council. They avoided the crucial question: Do they support US occupation of Iraq without the backing of the SC. Now that answer would have been interesting....

Usually Insane · January 30, 2003, 06:30

what is justice pray?

That millions of people have been starved because no one gave a dime for them before?

That the US are already selling Iraqi oil rights to oil companies?

That an assasination attempt at saddam would be a lot cheaper for the US and safer for it's soldiers?

That they are planning to counterattack with nuclear weapons IF Iraq uses any weapon of "mass desrtruction" thus killing innocent people for what one person is responsible for (and the cahin of command of course)

Calling people who do their job, i.e. defending their country, War criminals?

When was the trial, I seem to have missed it, I don't remember any judges listening to both sides and judging.

edit: spelling mistake

And I really can't see how there is any justice in this cause

LaRusso · January 30, 2003, 06:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
Yes! Looks like Germany and France took a major blow to their leadership positions in the EU, all because they want to be independant of the US. I guess the rest of europe isn't wandering around w/ identity issues.

hm, i am not so sure. do you really think that lackey countries like hungary, czech republic and the like will hesitate one minute to suck it up to germans when it comes to their economic leadership on the continent. to say that this has been a blow to franco-german domination is to say that castro is undermining the hegemony of the US on the western hemisphere.

Hungary and the likes have very little left of the foreign policy and they have decided to use it as a cheap propaganda tool and make empty calls for unity on issues they certainly do not want to make a stand on. Please ask Hungarians how many batallions they are sending to Iraq.

HershOstropoler · January 30, 2003, 06:42

Hey LR, how's it going. Are you back to Beograd?

Harovan · January 30, 2003, 06:49

I demand to respect the opinion of Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic! Grant them their 5 minutes of importance in the international arena!

After all, they're the new Europe! They'll return soon enough in the arms of the old Europe, when they need the next chunk of Euros.

As for Italy, well, congratulations to this ally. They always were reliable. They'll make the US stronger, no doubt.

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 06:50

Spain and Italy are major players in europe. Also if the eastern countries were supporting France and Germany then you would saying oh look no one in europe likes the US

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 06:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I demand to respect the opinion of Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic! Grant them their 5 minutes of importance in the international arena!

After all, they're the new Europe! They'll return soon enough in the arms of the old Europe, when they need the next chunk of Euros.

As for Italy, well, congratulations to this ally. They always were reliable. They'll make the US stronger, no doubt.

As Germany is broke and the French only give money to their gitane smoking country folk then they won't be getting any money from them

HershOstropoler · January 30, 2003, 06:59

Spain and Italy belong to the big 5 in the EU, although Berlusconi has reduced Italy to a joke. As for Aznar's motives, I'm very uncertain what he wants to achieve here. There's some intra EU powerplay at work here too, but the goals look quite murky.

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 07:01

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Spain and Italy belong to the big 5 in the EU, although Berlusconi has reduced Italy to a joke. As for Aznar's motives, I'm very uncertain what he wants to achieve here. There's some intra EU powerplay at work here too, but the goals look quite murky.

I agree, however France and Germanys motives are just as bad.

With Spain now exerting more power, it means the Franco/German axis is no longer the automatic dominant force, if the UK,Italy and Spain oppose it. They are playing on anti-american sentiment to stay in charge

Harovan · January 30, 2003, 07:04

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger
As Germany is broke and the French only give money to their gitane smoking country folk then they won't be getting any money from them

Germany still pays its membership fee to the EU. Mind you, that it is by far the largest by both amount and proportion. Perhaps we should propose to increase the fee for the other members to the same proportion?

Worthingtons · January 30, 2003, 07:05

WHo cares about France and Germany. They follow each other polically wise in most cases anyway ... they are both a set of cowards so let them be continue to be, it's not like we really need thier support.

Capt Dizle · January 30, 2003, 07:10

Just for the record. On the street in America, in 45 years, I have never heard a soul give a damn about what Europeans think.

Lancer · January 30, 2003, 07:17

EU powerplay...exerting influence...what's this one or that one up to? Look at this EU country...they are a joke...bla bla bla.

Like sands through the hour glass, these are the days or our allies.

Or

As the World Turns... europe spins.

It's a big soap opera.

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 07:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Germany still pays its membership fee to the EU. Mind you, that it is by far the largest by both amount and proportion. Perhaps we should propose to increase the fee for the other members to the same proportion?

Germany does pay the most but it is the largest economy, as a peortion of its GDP it is no higher than the UK's.

Anyway Geramny won't want to increase the amount it pays.

The UK won't incraese its contribution until we stop subsidising unprofitable farms in order to keep french politicans from having manure spread on their offices.Or before the massive gravy train of brusels and strasbourg is reduced

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 07:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
EU powerplay...exerting influence...what's this one or that one up to? Look at this EU country...they are a joke...bla bla bla.

Like sands through the hour glass, these are the days or our allies.

Or

As the World Turns... europe spins.

It's a big soap opera.

i think we are talking about internal EU politics. Believe it or not they do play a part in europes outward policies as do US internal politics.

HershOstropoler · January 30, 2003, 07:24

Lance, America's internal squibbling isn't any better. Often enough it's worse. What we seem to lack is a chief who delivers a record amount of drivel once a year so everyone rolls over for 5 minutes.

Harovan · January 30, 2003, 07:32

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger
Germany does pay the most but it is the largest economy, as a peortion of its GDP it is no higher than the UK's.

Anyway Geramny won't want to increase the amount it pays.

The UK won't incraese its contribution until we stop subsidising unprofitable farms in order to keep french politicans from having manure spread on their offices.Or before the massive gravy train of brusels and strasbourg is reduced

Agreed. Agricultural subsidies are evil and to be reduced by (almost) all means, on this point I understand and even sympathize with the position of the UK. But I wouldn't deny the whole thing. IIRC, the UK farmers were happy to get a 80% compensation for their mad cows from these funds (as opposed to the usual 70%), although the quick spread of the disease was their own fault by denying it for years and ignoring numerous foreign warnings.

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 07:39

I have no problem with UK farmers not getting subsidies.

BSE wasn't the fault of individual farmers it was a system which slaways took the view of the producer rather than the consumer, this is now changing.

I think we now have the tightest contols in europe to stop infected meat entering the food chain

red_jon · January 30, 2003, 08:29

Wow, so the leaders of these countries support the war. Polls have indicated that the British people do not currently want a war with Iraq.

I say yay France and Germany.

TheStinger · January 30, 2003, 08:34

Quote:

Originally posted by red_jon
Wow, so the leaders of these countries support the war. Polls have indicated that the British people do not currently want a war with Iraq.

I say yay France and Germany.

Polls say they are willing to support a war with UN backing. If the only reason the UN refused to back it was because of France's veto then I think that would change.

red_jon · January 30, 2003, 08:38

Hence the reason I said currently - should the UN's position change, then I'm sure the British would support a war.

But at the moment, it doesn't seem very popular.

LaRusso · January 30, 2003, 10:52

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Just for the record. On the street in America, in 45 years, I have never heard a soul give a damn about what Europeans think.

well, since half of americans cannot find atlantic on the map, they are certainly not expected to hear of 'europe'

LaRusso · January 30, 2003, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Hey LR, how's it going. Are you back to Beograd?

Oh I am fine. I am currently back to Budapest for a couple of weeks. Did not log often to Polly while in Belgrade, too much work and a crappy net connection.

Who's behind that nick? Roland?

lord of the mark · January 30, 2003, 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Just for the record. On the street in America, in 45 years, I have never heard a soul give a damn about what Europeans think.

You dont hagn out on the right streets

lord of the mark · January 30, 2003, 11:09

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso

hm, i am not so sure. do you really think that lackey countries like hungary, czech republic and the like will hesitate one minute to suck it up to germans when it comes to their economic leadership on the continent. to say that this has been a blow to franco-german domination is to say that castro is undermining the hegemony of the US on the western hemisphere.

Hungary and the likes have very little left of the foreign policy and they have decided to use it as a cheap propaganda tool and make empty calls for unity on issues they certainly do not want to make a stand on. Please ask Hungarians how many batallions they are sending to Iraq.

The czechs have sent a unit specializing in Chem-bio detection/protection (Warsaw pact experience comes in handy

) Hungary is base for training Iraqi exiles.
They all add moral weight - far from being lackeys, they are the heros of the last half of the 20th c - Havel symbolizes this.

LaRusso · January 30, 2003, 11:31

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

The czechs have sent a unit specializing in Chem-bio detection/protection (Warsaw pact experience comes in handy

) Hungary is base for training Iraqi exiles.
They all add moral weight - far from being lackeys, they are the heros of the last half of the 20th c - Havel symbolizes this.

You mean Havel who could not wait for his wife to properly rest six feet under and married a crazy actress straight away. Ask any Czech about that, and he will tell you what kind of a moral posture Havel has nowadays...

Czechs have sent that unit in the first Gulf War. Let us just count the number of East European soldiers who will be sent to the GUlf this time. I always have a problem with heroism from distance. All states who think (but REALLY think) that Saddam represents a grave danger for humanity should send a massive number of troops and be prepared to suffer heavy casualties for the future of humankind (this sounds grand, doesn't it).

HershOstropoler · January 30, 2003, 12:31

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso

Oh I am fine. I am currently back to Budapest for a couple of weeks. Did not log often to Polly while in Belgrade, too much work and a crappy net connection.

Still at uni, or found something else?

"Who's behind that nick? Roland?"

How do you know?

Bereta_Eder · January 30, 2003, 13:27

Some great allies....