How to deal with game cheaters

Rasbelin · February 1, 2003, 09:10

In-game cheaters have always been a problem, but one large LAN party seems to have found a good solution for how to deal with those pesky cheaters.

http://www.duckworld.ch/cheaters.asx [Windows Media Video (requires WMP 8 or 9)]

I wouldn't want to be the cheater in that video.

General Ludd · February 1, 2003, 10:11

I've seen that before, a perfect example of the jack-asses who play counter strike. (And I'm not refering to the cheater)

Nubclear · February 1, 2003, 15:44

Sometimes I wish I could do that to a few cheaters I meet

Jamski · February 3, 2003, 06:29

WTF ! Were they playing for money, or some kind of prize ? Sure, noone likes a cheater, but if its just a game, then the punishment could be found a little harsh, perhaps. Having said that, there's a few guys I know that deserve this treatment...

-Jam

Rasbelin · February 3, 2003, 06:37

Well, I could maybe finally reveal that it was a setup. No one was actually thrown out.

Scouse Gits · February 3, 2003, 07:25

Seems perfectly reasonable to me

SG[1]

General Ludd · February 3, 2003, 09:03

I think it would have to be staged. I mean, even for counter-strike players, that's a little much.

All it took was someone yelling "WTF we have a cheater here" and they run over and throw him on the curb....

Actually, no. It sounds like a typical thing to expect from the people who play that game.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 09:10

Whats the gist of the thing?
I don't want to download the file.

General Ludd · February 3, 2003, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Whats the gist of the thing?
I don't want to download the file.

There was big LAN party and someone yells "Hey WTF!! I think we have a cheater here" then the camera looks around and zooms to the action, where a bunch of guys come over, unplug his computer, pick him up and then throw him out the door along with his computer - which hits the pavement and smashes to bits.

Jamski · February 3, 2003, 10:03

Well that's what happens when you live in America

-Jam

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 10:05

/me will have to make an exception for this file.

Rasbelin · February 3, 2003, 10:13

Skanky,

it's worth seeing.

DrSpike · February 3, 2003, 13:31

Lol, cheats tend to make it harder to enjoy MP.......they deserve whatever punishment they get.

pg · February 3, 2003, 17:51

iirc there was a story similar to this that happened at a big cpl lan. i don't remember it all but i think it basically went like this - supposedly people thought a player who was quite good was a cheater due to online rumors and when he showed up at the lan they decided to get back at him. the accused cheater left his computer unattened over the course of the lan to later come back and find it totally trashed. i don't even think there was any hard proof against him. even if he was a cheater it's just a ****ing game! cpl lans are full of stories like this lately, theft seems like it happens a lot if not random destruction like this.

Dauphin · February 3, 2003, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Well, I could maybe finally reveal that it was a setup. No one was actually thrown out.

I think that would be obvious to most people.

Otherwise that guy would be really pissed off. "I'm gonna sue 'ur asses man".

General Ludd · February 3, 2003, 19:43

Quote:

Originally posted by pg
iirc there was a story similar to this that happened at a big cpl lan. i don't remember it all but i think it basically went like this - supposedly people thought a player who was quite good was a cheater due to online rumors and when he showed up at the lan they decided to get back at him. the accused cheater left his computer unattened over the course of the lan to later come back and find it totally trashed. i don't even think there was any hard proof against him. even if he was a cheater it's just a ****ing game! cpl lans are full of stories like this lately, theft seems like it happens a lot if not random destruction like this.

It's my experience that most "cheaters" don't cheat at all, they are just good. I can't count the number of times I've been accused of cheating because I listen to foot steps, or shoot likely hiding spots, ect... but I can count the number of real cheaters I've encountered in CS on my fingers. (Of course, I generally played on servers with alot of anti-cheat software installed)

But I guess using your brain is sort of an unfair advantage to most of the people who play these games.

DrSpike · February 3, 2003, 20:05

Yeah there is some truth in that.......I have been accused of cheating at quake, it was one of my proudest moments. A friend who is much better gets accused all the time, but it is just skill.

On the other hand there are cheats, but anyone with any knowledge about their respective game can usually tell if they check.

Dauphin · February 3, 2003, 22:27

"It's only cheating if you get caught... or suffer from guilt"

pg · February 4, 2003, 03:15

i'll tell you from experience that there are more cheaters than you expect but the majority of accused cheaters on the internet are not really cheaters. most people who cheat aren't great players, and usually only the really great players have accusations of cheating stick. a great player is a guy who never seems to die, get 3x the frags of everyone else, and do jaw dropping things at ease. a great player with insane mad skills can out pretty much outplay any cheater. next time you are at a big lan you can test it yourself all you need is 1 great player and a few people using cheats to play against him. you'll be surprised to learn he'll still be better than anyone using cheats(usually most cheats have weaknesses you can exploit - great players will jump all over this).

of course lots of people get accused of cheating but i'm talking about the times when players(who are almost always super-competitive) become so convinced that so and so is cheating they run a community smear campaign against the accused cheater. usually accusations are not based on anything like fact and closely resemble witch hunts. i remember huge threads on messageboards over people who analysed the accused cheaters demos - watching it in slow motion, watching it with cheats installed to see if it makes more sense, etc yet many times that same player will show up at a lan or have many people vouch for them but they are still forever known as a cheater. if someone calls you a cheater w/o hard evidence(like a punkbuster violation) it's usually because of a much different reason(their hurt ego, hate, jealous of your skills) than they actually expect you are cheating.

the few times i've experimented with cheats they've gotten in the way of my playing more than they actually helped. sure, some of the cheats are semi-useful but once you get so good cheats hinder you more than help. humans can outaim aim bots(if you don't believe me you should watch demos of quake/cs/ut), and the various cheats which let you see where the other players are is something most great players already have ingrained into their blood, and thus they don't need these cheats. relying on cheats is a crutch - you can play better without them, if you have enough skill , but for the lesser skilled they can be helpful.

Urban Ranger · February 4, 2003, 03:37

Quote:

Originally posted by pg
a great player is a guy who never seems to die, get 3x the frags of everyone else, and do jaw dropping things at ease. a great player with insane mad skills can out pretty much outplay any cheater.

It really depends on the game. For example, IIRC, Quake sends extra information to the clients to save time. That leaves a hole for cheaters to exploit by seeking out this extra information.

Eric Raymond wrote an article on it, but unfortunately his homepage seems to be down at the moment. Thanks to Google, however, search for "The Case of the Quake Cheats" and read the cached page.

Rasbelin · February 4, 2003, 04:11

Quote:

It's my experience that most "cheaters" don't cheat at all, they are just good.

Well, based on my experience from MoH:AA and SH, I can say that most times when you hear that someone is a cheater, it is a cheater. There's several ways you can determin if the person is cheating, but what really helps is that you know how different cheats work and how you know by spectating the suspected player. Also one thing are map glitches which is a very common way of cheating; the easier it's to find them and utilise them, the more people will landshark. Of course good players get called cheaters by toddlers and other newbies, but frankly people usually only seem to whine when someone is actually cheating. There's several games which are proun to cheating because of lack of support and commercial anti-cheating software (we do have several excellent tools for MoH), so they tend to be infested by cheaters. There's a large problem with MoH:AA and SH, but hopefully the situation will improve with SH.

Quote:

A friend who is much better gets accused all the time, but it is just skill.

Indeed, many clan members are frequently accused, but it's mostly a last resort for newbies to get some attention, so they whine and start calling people with names (i.e. generally acting like 7 years-old children). Of course we do have clans which are all cheating or then someone has decided to try and cheat or use a hack as it makes him maybe better

Quote:

relying on cheats is a crutch - you can play better without them, if you have enough skill , but for the lesser skilled they can be helpful.

And it's also a matter of honesty.

However cheating shouldn't be accepted under any circumstances as it only promotes unfairness and soon there won't be that many servers left where you can find cheat free players.

So what should be done?

There's 3 measures that would help a lot.

1. The game studios and publishers should be more interested in combating cheating and also pay more attention to the cheating and hacking aspects of their games. EA Games is well-known for being ignorant with the MoH series as they're more interested in the profits. In general more options for checking the players' settings remotely should be implemented (the "dumpuser" command isn't good enough) and any maps and other objects should be tested properly for glitches and other bugs.

2. Game publishers should more actively promote anti-cheating software and also show interest in the products by integrating support for them in the games. These aren't the ultimate solution, but they help indeed. Especially a player name registration feature will be useful against impersonating.

3. A clamp down on websites that provide hacks for games would be very effective as currently there's only a few well-known sites that seem to be the backbone of the cheating community.

Dis · February 4, 2003, 04:37

I cried seeing a good computer smashed like that

Nubclear · February 4, 2003, 04:41

Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that during that commercial for EA Games, a large number of voices say "EA Games" in a monotonous tone, like a large robotic collective....And then a small whisper that says "Challenge Everything!".

.........

.............

..............

pg · February 4, 2003, 05:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

It really depends on the game. For example, IIRC, Quake sends extra information to the clients to save time. That leaves a hole for cheaters to exploit by seeking out this extra information.

Eric Raymond wrote an article on it, but unfortunately his homepage seems to be down at the moment. Thanks to Google, however, search for "The Case of the Quake Cheats" and read the cached page.

it's worth pointing out that the newer qw clients basically does what this paper suggests(in many ways qw is the most advanced quake game due to it's long open source time and rabid fan base). the old setup was qw client <-> secure closed source proxy <-> server. i also think it's worth pointing out that this paper is, i think, talking about the netquake version of quake1, not qw. things are much different between these 2 and newer games like q3. the extra information thingy doesn't even apply as far as i know anymore.

anyhow, i still say cheats are not powerful enough to tip the balance to besting a great player. the only cheat which i've ever seen that tilts the balance between a great player and a cheater is a good aimbot on a very low pinging connection but there's a few problems.

1. the aimbot has near perfect aim with 1 gun - the lightning gun. it's so obvious as your shaft sticks right to the person w/o waivering. if you reduce it's accuracy you are back down to human lvl aim and then it's still an effective cheat for the unskilled but not something which is unbeatable.
2. the aimbot only has decent human aim with everything else. it isn't even above average with rockets so you have to good aim with those to be able to exploit the aimbots superb lg aim.

you don't have to believe i know what i'm talking about but i'm really big quake junky!

pg · February 4, 2003, 06:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
There's several ways you can determin if the person is cheating, but what really helps is that you know how different cheats work and how you know by spectating the suspected player.

i hate when people say this - it has some truth to it but for every cheater you rightly accuse using this method you will probably accuse just as many innocent players. this method has been proven over the years to iffy at best. i remember many times where whole communities where convinced with this method that so and so was a cheater then he'd show up at a lan and play just as good as ever!

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Also one thing are map glitches which is a very common way of cheating; the easier it's to find them and utilise them, the more people will landshark.

i'm not familiar with these games or the term 'landshark' but unless it's really something nasty i'd probably say it's fair game. map glitches are part of the game even if they change the game somewhat from how it was designed. most exploits are good for the game in the long run, as they increase the skill depth. just look at what rocketing jumping, and bunny hopping has done.

of course if the exploit is unbalanced then it needs to go but as long as it's within reason i like games with lots of little tricks, and exploits. casual players probably dislike many of these but competitive players love them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
frankly people usually only seem to whine when someone is actually cheating

and how do they know exactly? maybe there are just some tricks most players do not know. there are all sorts of tricks most casual players, and competitive players are clueless about. here's a simple one that is in every id based engine since doom - if you strafe at a certain angle along a wall you get a speed boost(in some cases it can more than triple your speed). it is rather hard to do though. i'm sure you know most of the standard ones like capping your fps at a certain number in order to get rounding errors which make you move faster, and jump higher. if you don't know about these simple bugs/exploits/whatever you want to call them they will probably seem like cheats to you but they are hardcoded into the game(if not intended).

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
And it's also a matter of honesty.

However cheating shouldn't be accepted under any circumstances as it only promotes unfairness and soon there won't be that many servers left where you can find cheat free players.

So what should be done?

i don't accept cheating at all i just know how hard it is to prove over the internet. the only time i even worry over cheating is at the strictly high competitive level for clan matches/duels/etc. everywhere else it doesn't really matter that much. people just want a fair matched game on their favorite public server and if they think someone is too good(or cheating) just kick/ban them. it's just a game.

i know it's a matter of honestly but you also have to look at the results - frankly i don't care if someone much worse than me is cheating it'll make the game that much more interesting for me! no one ever accuses someone bad of cheating because no one cares! it's only when they are good that we start to care.

Rasbelin · February 4, 2003, 06:17

I do believe you.

One thing that interests me is if the Quake III aimbots are similar to ones for MoH:AA and SH as it uses the licensed Quake III engine for graphics. I'm not sure about that, but IIRC you don't know where you get hit, unlike in MoH:AA and SH where you get to know in MP where the opponent hit you. That's on of the clues to figure out if the person uses an aimbot, as they seem to hit you at the same spot. Also good signs if a person suddenly turns around quick and shoots you. However I would say that recoil hacks are more pesky as they are too reliable and improve your accuracy.

Rasbelin · February 4, 2003, 06:30

Quote:

Originally posted by pg

i'm not familiar with these games or the term 'landshark' but unless it's really something nasty i'd probably say it's fair game. map glitches are part of the game even if they change the game somewhat from how it was designed. most exploits are good for the game in the long run, as they increase the skill depth. just look at what rocketing jumping, and bunny hopping has done.

of course if the exploit is unbalanced then it needs to go but as long as it's within reason i like games with lots of little tricks, and exploits. casual players probably dislike many of these but competitive players love them.

landshark = walking under the map so that your head is visible on the surface of the map

Using map glitches for getting under the map is unfair as you can't kill a person who's under the map, but who indeed can see inside all buildings and into dark corners, and then simply shoot them, while the opponent can't do anything. That's an unfair advantage which is not BTW used by competitive players (only a lamer walks under the map for that advantage). So as many as possible should be fixed.

Quote:

and how do they know exactly?

If you have RCON access, you can run "dumpuser" and check for any possible sunburst, neon and other unauthorised skins (these become nasty when you use the force models option) and you can check for what cvars the user is using, or you can check in spectator mode if they clearly have a walk under the map, telenade, wallhack, foghack, aimbot or recoil hack. There's other ways too (MOHAA CI, Ponto40 and Delator) for cheat checking. However most of these apply only to server supervisors and more experienced players that know how to identify them.

Quote:

maybe there are just some tricks most players do not know. there are all sorts of tricks most casual players, and competitive players are clueless about.

Yes, indeed. Not all hacks are that well-known and more are to come.

pg · February 4, 2003, 07:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
landshark = walking under the map so that your head is visible on the surface of the map

wow, that is a quite a nasty one. i've never seen that in an id based game before. if they haven't fixed that one yet it might not ever get fixed.

you'd probably need access to the editable map files to recomplie new fixed maps.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasbelin
If you have RCON access, you can run "dumpuser" and check for any possible sunburst, neon and other unauthorised skins (these become nasty when you use the force models option) and you can check for what cvars the user is using, or you can check in spectator mode if they clearly have a walk under the map, telenade, wallhack, foghack, aimbot or recoil hack. There's other ways too (MOHAA CI, Ponto40 and Delator) for cheat checking. However most of these apply only to server supervisors and more experienced players that know how to identify them.

ah, ok that is proof. i thought you were just relying on spectating ppl without any hard evidence. i have to mention this though because it's really related to cheating and some people even consider it the same subject - some of these realism games are too stringent and name too many things as cheats. the best example are the games which have started to limit your gamma settings(does mohaa do this?). that's just insane considering how much those values vary per video card, monitor, drivers, etc.

it's useless to try and enforce standards when you cannot even verify them! i understand it's possible to set a certain value range that would be good enough for almost anyone to ensure playability but someone with an already brighter setup would still be able to use as high a setting as someone with a very dark setup. if you can't make sure everyone has fair access to the exact(or very near) results on their screen(not just settings) there is no reason to try enforce certain rules as they are not fair(unless you are part of the mob who screams cheater at everyone!).

what's next limiting mouse sensitivity or sound settings?

of course it's telling that most games don't limit sound yet because the mob doesn't understand it very well, yet tweaked sound settings are usually much more important than anything graphical.

DrSpike · February 4, 2003, 08:18

Quote:

Originally posted by pg
i'll tell you from experience that there are more cheaters than you expect but the majority of accused cheaters on the internet are not really cheaters. most people who cheat aren't great players, and usually only the really great players have accusations of cheating stick. a great player is a guy who never seems to die, get 3x the frags of everyone else, and do jaw dropping things at ease. a great player with insane mad skills can out pretty much outplay any cheater. next time you are at a big lan you can test it yourself all you need is 1 great player and a few people using cheats to play against him. you'll be surprised to learn he'll still be better than anyone using cheats(usually most cheats have weaknesses you can exploit - great players will jump all over this).

Pg I know you are qw player, since we chatted about this before. I don't know the situation there, but in Quake3, which I play, the best players in the world could not beat a reasonable player with the latest bots.

What is more, to your later points about not being able to tell from spectating, as an experienced player I can usually tell within a few minutes of spectating whether a player is using an aimbot. If the player is very careful it can sometimes be hard.......but they usually slip up.

Thankfully I use this skill mostly to shut people up when they call good players cheats, but alas not always.

pg · February 4, 2003, 19:06

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
Pg I know you are qw player, since we chatted about this before. I don't know the situation there, but in Quake3, which I play, the best players in the world could not beat a reasonable player with the latest bots.

What is more, to your later points about not being able to tell from spectating, as an experienced player I can usually tell within a few minutes of spectating whether a player is using an aimbot. If the player is very careful it can sometimes be hard.......but they usually slip up.

when i talk about quake it's always qw. i guess i should have made that clear. qw is really different than q3, it's a bit hard to explain unless you play it. in a few yrs q3 will probably be in a much similar situation especially if it goes open source and continues to have a big player base.

i also am talking about the really high level of play where people like zero4, fatality, etc are the ppl you will competiting against(i've played with zero4/fat in qw before). if you follow the competitive q3 scene closely you'll know hardly any top players have ever been caught cheating or using a bot. that's because they are obvious with inhuman lg/rg percentages. the latest ogc/etc are a bit too good, so you can't expect to use them and get away with it. the only cheats worth using are the ones which are so good that they give themselves away. i don't really care too much about the other cheats which aren't obvious as they don't offer that big an advantage. it's like a catch 22, sure there are some people who are in the middle and benefit from cheats but it really isn't that many.