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Old February 21, 2001, 02:53   #1
Blake
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Reducing your ecodamage
Well, I've managed to pretty much confirm the best way to keep ecodamage at 0 is to create ecodamage.

I checked the ecodamage formula carefully and ran some test games, and here is the end result:
Every fungal bloom caused by ecodamage allows you to have 1 more "clean" mineral in every base.

I was playing a game as Lal, intending to see just how high a population I could get, in light of my improved understanding of ecodamage I let some bases cause ecodamage. I was running FM so used arty to weaken the mind worms which attacked me. About 2200 (I had all restrictions lifted by 2150..) I had a base producing 31 minerals, with NO ecodamage, and not a cent preserve in sight. I didn't have centuari empathy. Normally by the time my bases were that developed the best I would manage without ecodamage is 20 minerals.

So the result is in the early game when worm attacks are small let your bases create a little ecodamage, let them attack you. This pays off big time.

So for all this time that I've been carefully keeping ecodamage at 0 in all bases all the time I've only been hurting my game. Annoyed I didn't pick up on during a year of playing, but pleased I'm still learning more about the game.

The simplified ecodamage formula for clean minerals per base:

Terraforming (main contributers only):
For each borehole add 8
condensor add 4
mirror add 6

divide total by 8

Halve if tree farm
Reduce to zero if hybrid forest.

Minerals
16 + # of previous fungal attacks

Clean minerals = Minerals - Terraforming

And there you have it. I'll try to get more precise values for terraforming ecodamage (and how it is different when being worked, the ecodamage formula is not specific enough), altough that would also make it less simple.
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Old February 21, 2001, 05:19   #2
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Blake!
That's a good idea to increase the number of "clean" minerals by controlled early game ecodamage.
I think I am doing this without intention in most of my games, because playing blind research, there is some time between industrial auto and tree farms, and in this time I always get some ecodamage.
Now, after the arguments Blake posted, it seems a good idea to get some controlled small ecodamage (around 10 I suppose) instead of reducing production to keep ecodamage low. And in earlier game the worm rapes are smaller and easier to controll than in later game.
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Old February 21, 2001, 14:12   #3
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Important question:

Does teh previous damages mean per base, or does a fungal bloom at one base apply to them all?

BTW, thanks for clearing up what previous damages means. I've been trying to figure that out for a while.
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Old February 21, 2001, 14:29   #4
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Wanted to ask the same as Fitz.
Plus, I was wondering if there might be difference between a mere fungus >pop<, or an actual worm attack...
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Old February 21, 2001, 15:34   #5
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... and does a Fungal Bloom only increase the allowable minerals for your own faction, or does a Fungal Bloom in some other faction's territory count? (What about allies?)
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Old February 21, 2001, 15:48   #6
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AFAIK any tile of fungus which appears due to ecodamage reduces your ecodamage at every base. Regardless if worms appear or if it is associated with a >pop< story or not. Not sure if it also appiles for other players ecodamage.

Anyway, what I have figured why I used to be able to get about 20 clean minerals per base, rather than 16 is I would let the 3 "warning" blooms appear, and when worms attack for real I would clean up my act, and never create ecodamage again until hab domes. Which was bad, because by that stage rather than a couple of worms I'd get a dozen locusts.
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Old February 21, 2001, 23:26   #7
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Exact EcoDamage formula is located in the "Borehole Ecodamage" thread.
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Old February 22, 2001, 04:21   #8
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Theohall, that formula does indeed seem to be correct, except for how it considers enchancments (It's a per base thing), and ofcourse the planet bit, obviously the person who wrote that formula never played SMAC, and just deduced various properties from the formula itself. Stupid. It's exactly the same as the datalinks formula, just worded better, and a few extra incorrect details. It also ommits the strange properties of orbital minerals.

Unfortunately I don't know if other players damages count, I'll run a test when they bring back the 26 hour day hmmm. Prehaps if we slowed the rotation of the earth... what tech do you need for that?

Anyway, the (hopefully) 100% correct formula follows, which I have verified is correct for bases with tree farms + hybrid forest.
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Old February 22, 2001, 04:27   #9
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The (hopefully) 100% correct ecodamage formula:

DIFFiculty = 2 citizen; 3 specialist-librarian; 5 thinker/transcend

PLANET = SE Planet value
note: Any planet rating greater than +2 is considered to be +2 for ecodamage purposes

LIFE = Native life setting 1 sparse; 2 average; 3 abundant

TECH = Number of techs discovered

MINERALS = Minerals produced on Planet this turn, subtract the number of minerals produced DIRECTLY from space, which is either the # of mining stations, or base size, whichever is smaller.

PREVIOUS = # of times your(?) faction has been hit with Ecodamage

GOODFACS = 1 + (total number of Centauri Preserves, Temples of Planet, and Nanoreplicators you have in base)

ENHANCEMENTS = Total number of eco disruptive enhancement - mines, solar collectors, farms, soil enrichers, roads, mag tubes, condensors and boreholes. Count each working square twice (this also includes "working" a road). Count each Borehole 8 more times and each Condensor 4 more times. Subtract # of forests in that base's control.
Cut half the value if base has a Tree Farm and totally delete the value if the base has BOTH a Tree Farm and a Hybrid Forest.

Formula:

MODIFICATIONS = (ENHANCEMENTS/8) + (MINERALS/GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5) - 16 - PREVIOUS

Percentage chance for EcoDamage = MODIFICATIONS * DIFF * TECH * (3-Planet) * LIFE/300

-

Things still needing to be tested are atrocities, particullary minor and the effect other players ecodamage has on your own. Also the amount of ecodamage echlon mirrors cause, should be 6, between Borehole and Condensor if datalinks is correct.

edit: Oops, bad spelling. And I just noticed I've been upgraded to Warlord. Cool.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old February 22, 2001, 06:18   #10
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Blake, I was trying to give a more conclusive look at this formual too.
Unfortuantely I barely have dtored developed single player games, and in PBEM you can't switch on Ctrl+K, leaving you less room for experimenting.
Putting up a scenario for the EcoDamage purpose would require more than a couple of bases, to test for cross-linked effects, and I don't have all that time on my hands (maybe it's easier to play a game then).

Anyway, I beg, let's see in what your formula differs from the Datalinks one, which although everyone has it in the game I paste here for easier reference:

---
The ecological damage formula is complex:
[list=1][*]For each base total the number of
Mines, Solar Collectors,
Farms, Soil Enrichers,
Roads, Mag Tubes,
Condensers, Mirrors and Boreholes.
Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.
[*]Add an extra
+8 for each Borehole,
+6 for each Mirror, and
+4 for each Condenser.
[*]Subtract 1 for each Forest.
[*]Halve if base has Tree Farm, and
Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.
[*]Divide this value by 8, and
reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous damages.
Set this number aside.
[*]Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit)
[*]If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#,
then reduce result 6 by remaining amount.
[*]Divide minerals by 1 plus # of
Centauri Preserve,
Temple of Planet,
Nanoreplicator.
[*]Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity.
[*]If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double your value.

Ecology % =

ValueFromStep10
* Technologies * (3-PLANET)
* Difficulty * LIFE / 300


Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value

Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start
---[/list=a]
(this is the EXACT datalinks wording, I only added linebreaks and formatting)
the last two factors are fixed in a game, and here are the possible values
Easy * Rare = 3/300 = 1/100
Hard * Rare = 5/300 = 1/ 60
Easy * Avg. = 6/300 = 1/ 50
Easy * Abd. = 9/300 = 3/100 (1/33)
Hard * Avg. = 10/300 = 1/ 30
Hard * Abd. = 15/300 = 1/ 20
---

DIFF - you state only 2 for Citizen, I assume you've tested it, I only played Citizen once (the first one) in my life.

PLANET - I was also wondering what could happen with Gaians-Green or Manifold-Green, supposedly your ED should me multiplied by 0. I never actually thought to check it when I was in the situation, as you're all so positive about it I assume you verified it firsthand.
Curiosity: Miriam running FM would have her -4 counted, or does it get trimmed to -3 anyway?

MINERALS - you say "Minerals produced on Planet" ????????
This would mean that not only the production from all your bases, but also from all the other factions get counted.
If you meant with that to express it as opposed to "from Orbit", you'd better reword that in a less misleading way (like "Minerals that base produces from the Planet's surface").
I'll have my tests sometimes, for now I would underline the possible semantic difference between minerals "collected" (workers/crawlers) and minerals "produced" (the mineral production of your base, the ones which actually go into your production box...).

PREVIOUS - so now you even have a doubt not only if that count has to be kept separate base per base, but also if there is a Global count

GOODFACS - there the grammar and property I should leave to you mothertongue literates, but I ask, how many Preserves can you have in one base?
I understand that way it sounds more fluent, but the datalinks wording, although awkward, seems more proper, and it would be a hint that you have to count the # of items in the 3-set in that base only.
OTOH, also Skanderbeg in the other thread quotes a specific experiment from him, giving opposite results to yours. It remains to see who got it right and who overlooked something.
---
Finally, let me underline an arithmetick nitpick

IF we give credit to the datalinks formula, what's left of the ED Bonus (16+#) after calculating TF ED, is applied to the Minerals BEFORE dividing by Goodfacs.
Thus, your Modifications formula is correct ONLY in the case of
(ENHANCEMENTS/8) >= (16+PREVIOUS)
where you could rewrite it
[ (ENHANCEMENTS/8) - (16+PREVIOUS) ] + (MINERALS/GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5)

INSTEAD, in the case that
(ENHANCEMENTS/8) < (16+PREVIOUS),
the contribution of TF ED in the first term (point 5.) would be reduced to 0, and you apply to the minerals what's left of the bonus. So:

[ MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS - ENHANCEMENTS/8) ] / GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5)

This gives, if you want

(ENHANCEMENTS/8)/GOODFACS + MINERALS/GOODFACS - (16+PREVIOUS)/GOODFACS + 5*MajorAtrocities

Suppose you have:
ENHANCEMENTS = 48
GOODFACS = 2 (you built a Preserve)
PREVIOUS = 0
MINERALS = 20


Your foumula gives
48/8 + 20/2 - 16 = 0

The DataLinks algorythm gives
5. 6 - (up to 16) = 0
7. remaining amount form point 5 is 10, thus minerals = (20 - 10)
so
(Minerals-BonusLeft)/GoodFacs =
(20-10)/2 = 5
And THERE WOULD BE an ED your formula overlooked

Whether then the datalinks are incorrect and your easier and generalized formula applies, I leave to determine to the first who'll have time to control the figures....


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Old February 22, 2001, 06:34   #11
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To help it read in a more comprehensive way, let's put

TF = Enhancements/8 (TerraForming)
Bonus = 16+Previous
MP = Mineral Production not from Orbit
GF = GoodFacs
MA = Major Atrocities
PH = PeriHelion: 1 if false, 2 if true (did anyone actually observe if its ED effect works?)

So

Modifications =
{
max(0;TF-Bonus) +
[ MP-max(0;Bonus-TF) ] /GF +
5*MA
}
*PH

(according to the datalinks)
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Old February 22, 2001, 07:14   #12
Blake
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Ah geez Marione, It's getting on midnight here and you post that massive long post

Looks like the main confusion came from Minerals. Don't know where the hell that planet bit can from. Purely a typo, prehaps from posting too late at night. I'm sorry for any confusion

Should read:
MINERALS = Minerals produced in base this turn, subtract the number of minerals produced DIRECTLY from orbit, which is either the # of mining stations, or base size, whichever is smaller.

Planet was tested, played gaians and morgan and tried +2 planet, +3 planet, +5 planet under identical circumstance, all same ecodamage.

DIFF NOT tested. I just assumed it was right. Definetely seems to be right for Transcend.

And ah crap, I had copied my modified formula from the prima guide post. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Your absolutely right. The datalinks is right (I think). The GOODFAc stuff should be calculated in the final %ecolony part, I think anyway. Again testing required.

Well, lucky I put a "hopefully" in the tital of my formula. Thanks for pointing out the errors. I'll take another look in the morning.
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Old February 22, 2001, 14:06   #13
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quote:

Originally posted by MariOne on 02-22-2001 05:18 AM
[ MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS - ENHANCEMENTS/8) ] / GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5)

This gives, if you want

(ENHANCEMENTS/8)/GOODFACS + MINERALS/GOODFACS - (16+PREVIOUS)/GOODFACS + 5*MajorAtrocities



Why do you want to complicate it by dividing out GOODFACS?

Just leave it in, it looks simplest to me:

[ENHANCEMENTS/8 + MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS)]/GOODFACS + (MajorAtrocities*5)

Nice work catching needed rearrangement due to the reduction. I would also guess that the total before atrocities cannot become a negative number, but I could be wrong (ie - it could negate atrocity damage).

Also, I agree that the datalinks avoids the mistake the Prima guide makes for step 8. That's why I never assumed CentPreseerves to have an affect on all bases. I don't own the Prima Guide, so I had to read the datalinks to figure it out.
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Old February 22, 2001, 16:51   #14
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Okay, yet more weirdness. I ran multiple tests for terraforming and atrocity, and the effects of a preserve.

In a base with no terraforming, considerable mineral production, and lots of atrocity ecodamage building a preserve halves the ecodamage, as expected.

BUT, in a base with considerable terraforming ecodamage, preserves DO NOT halve the damame, in the extreme case going from 50 to 37, only a 25% reduction.

So testing suggests that the GOODFAC must be considered seperately for Terraforming and (Minerals + Atrocity}. Not sure if preserves have no effect on terraforming, or a reduced effect. Base square mineral possibly corrupting result. Maybe alter alphax.txt to have no base square minerals.

But anyway looks like we pretty much have the correct formula for ecodamage when terraforming is not considered, which is true post hybrid forest, or if terraforming is mostly forest.
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Old February 22, 2001, 17:04   #15
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Doh. If you read the Datalinks formula carefully, Step 8 only applies to the total from steps 6 and 7. Therefore, CentPreserves and the like do not apply to terraforming damage. Good catch there Blake

Let me think a bit and see if I can edit this formula a bit:

[ENHANCEMENTS/8 - (16+PREVIOUS to a max = ENHANCEMENTS/8)] + [MINERALS - (remaining 16+PREVIOUS)]/GOODFACS + (MajorAtrocities*5)
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old February 22, 2001, 21:50   #16
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More test's

Major weirdness, if you are using only forest building a tree farm can INCREASE ecodamage. Whoa. Weird. If you have negative ecodamage from forest outnumbering other terraforming then this negative terraforming ecodamage lets you have more clean minerals. Building a tree farm cuts the negative ecodamage in half, meaning it INCREASES your ecodamage. Real weird. Ofcourse usually negative ecodamage is next to impossible, because you need sensors and roads at a minimum, which would pretty much cancel the forest.

Other players fungal blooms do NOT reduce your ecodamage. You need to create the ecodamage to benefit.

Transcend AI's suffer 1/3 the ecodamage as human players, but have the same clean mineral limit. Other AI difficulties NOT tested.

The Pholus Mutagen SP and Singularity Inductor both act as a free GOODFAC in every base (so add 1 to GOODFAC if your faction controls the Mutagen or Inductor, add 2 if your faction controls both)

The Nanoreplicator works as advertised, but usually the +50% minerals increases the ecodamage much more than the "preserve" effect reduces it, especially if you already have a Cent preserve and ToP in the base. So don't build a nanoreplicator to reduce ecodamage.

Fitz:
Actually, it seems atrocity damage is reduced by the Cent Preserve, only terraforming would seem not to be.

Atrocity damage is definetely reduced by previous attacks, planet attacks you for a while, then calms down. So effectivly for every planet buster you launch planet attacks you 5 times for punishment.
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Old February 22, 2001, 22:06   #17
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Fitz:
"Why do you want to complicate it by dividing out GOODFACS?
Just leave it in, it looks simplest to me:"

I said: "If YOU want"!
It looks simpler to me too, but in my intention dividing out helped to compare it with Blakes' posted formula

Blake: *supposedly* GoodFacs do not apply to Atrocities. Adding a CP should only halve the MP, so if in a base with LOTS of atrocities you can halve the *overall* ED with a CP, then you proved that something's wrong with the formula...

Instead in a base iwth lots of TF ED, there is still a contribution to the ED from TF, as the Bonus can't quell it. So it's normal that a CP doesn't halve the overall base ED.

Fitz & Blake:
if you read carefully my shorthand formula, the use of max(0;...) function was a synthetic form to avoid the use of a sysetm like "IF TF greater than Bonus apply first form, if Bonus greater than TF apply second form".

When you say
[ENHANCEMENTS/8 - (16+PREVIOUS to a max = ENHANCEMENTS/8)]
it's the same as
max(0;TF-Bonus)
indeed, if Bonus is greater than TF, (TF-Bonus) is negative, thus 0 is greater than (TF-Bonus), and 0 is the value to be used.
How can you then determine your
(remaining 16+PREVIOUS)?
Using
max(0;Bonus-TF)
Indeed, we said above that Bonus is greater than TF. So we'd use part of the Bonus to completely match TF. What's left of the Bonus is thus (Bonus-TF)

So:

max(0;TF-Bonus) + [MP-max(0;Bonus-TF)]/GF + 5*MA

1. If TF > Bonus, all the Bonus gets used for TF, and there's still some TF, while the MP term has 0 Bonus left
2. If TF < Bonus, all eventual TF is cleared, that is the first term counts as 0, and the remaining amount (Bonus-TF) is positive and is to be reduced from MP.


Blake again:
"But anyway looks like we pretty much have the correct formula for ecodamage when terraforming is not considered"
If you reread my long post after you got some sleep, you'll notice that I clearly stated the two cases in which you had to apply one formula or the other.
Indeed, if final TF is lower than 16+# the first term for TF vanishes. When you have to write in maths the remanining amount, how can you do? You have to write
(16+PREVIOUS) - ENHANCEMENTS/8 and subtract it from minerals.
That's what I did, *under its field of applicability*.
Perhaps you actually got confused when I added the alternate formula dividing GoodFacs out...

[This message has been edited by MariOne (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old February 22, 2001, 22:17   #18
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Something else must be going on as well, unless I am missing something.

Total minerals produced by your faction, or possibly total on planet must be a factor in the first part of the equation. It could also be tech level, but I suspect the former.

I have noticed many times that ecodamage starts at 16 mins. ie: 16 mins no ecodamage, 17 mins some ecodamage. This base level slowly rises, usually starting as I progress through restriction lifting, D:AP and MMI, continuing throughout the game.

It seems to rise faster, if I concentrate on making sure almost all bases are at their maximum mineral production without ecodamage.

If I have a small number of bases, then the rise does not occur or occurs more slowly.

I scrupulusly avoid ecodamage, even to the point of changing a worker to a specialist on growth, to avoid ecodamage on growth. I am not 100% successful, but in a current game, I have had only 1 fungus pop, yet my base min allowed without ecodamage has risen to 20 mins. I have no global ecodamage reducing facilities and only 5 tree farms for local reductions.

How can this be explained with the above formula/explainations?
[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old February 22, 2001, 22:29   #19
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big_canuk, what terraforming are you using? really clean terraforming (ie only forest) seems to let you exceed the 16 limit. I admit there does seem to be a time factor, but I'm almost convinced it is caused by "pops" which you don't really pay attention to (ie ones which don't come with worms). The datalinks formula seems to be correct when read the right way, basically there is just no mention of time or # bases or total minerals.
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Old February 22, 2001, 23:01   #20
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Woha! Negative ecodamage from forests! you X-posted your short post while I was writing my long one...

note for b_c: sensors do NOT count for EcoDamage (nor bunkers)
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Old February 22, 2001, 23:54   #21
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More controlled tests.

Altered ALPHAX.txt so base square no minerals.

Made base with no terraforming, some distance away a variety of combinations of mineral producing stuff to crawl any desired number of minerals, I reloaded this before each test.

test1) Put boreholes every square, built preserve.
ED - Unchanged!

test1a) Built two boreholes, crawled 16 minerals. ED 17.
Crawled 4 minerals and worked 2 boreholes. ED 17
Conclusion - Working a borehole does not double it's ED! (altough it could still increase it from 8 to 9)

test1b) Plastered base with echlon mirrors. Had to work 4 EM's to get an increase in ED, compared to laying road, had to lay 4 roads. Did more boring tests.
Conclusion: Working a borehole/mirror/condensor adds 1 to it's damage rating, doesn't double it.

test2) Launched 10 planetbusters.
Built preserve
ED - HALVED!!!!!! Proof the formula is wrong. All ecodamage came from atrocities, and the preserve halved it.

test2a) Crawled 16 minerals
Nerve gassed 10 units.
ED unchanged

test2b) Crawled 16 minerals
Nerve gassed 10 units in base (killing pop)
ED unchanged.
Conclusion: effect of nervegas ecodamge is either very small, or only comes into play after other factions have denounced you.

test3) Crawled minerals, could crawl 16, no ED
Plastered base with forest
Could crawl 19 no ED
Built treefarm
Could only crawl 16 again.

Important conclusions:
GOODFACS do NOT effect Terraforming ED, but DO effect both mineral and Atrocity ED

Working a square increases it's ED rating by 1, rather than doubling it. (the datalinks could be interepted either way)

pre tree-farm forest creates a negative ecodamage effect. (which is supported by the formula)

--
Lots of chocolate, mountain dew and Hive units were harmed during these tests.
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Old February 23, 2001, 05:47   #22
Sikander
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Blake, Marione, et al,


Thanks for doing all of this testing and analysis. Finally I will have some rational criterion to work with as I make my plans.
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Old February 24, 2001, 05:08   #23
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Blake: On minor atrocities adding up, it takes a while to get the ball rolling, but once it is rolling it's fast. I generally start to get increased eco damage somewhere around 2000 years of sanctions, and by 2500-2800 years of sanctions the world is almost all ocean. (Top of mount of planet and raised land squares, and the tiles that bounce back to land for the same reason some maps sink...)
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Old February 24, 2001, 08:39   #24
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Geeat Work Blake. I'll use it as muster & guideline to replicate it on my own in this weekend.

couple of contributions:

test 1)
from the DataLinks (DL from now on) formula, the extra big TFED points for advanced terrraforming, get added in point 2, AFTER you doubled the worked tiles values in point 1
Thus, it was already there to be read that a Borehole gives 1+8=9 points unworked and 2+8=10 if worked.
So the actual points of the advanced terrafotming are:
Borehole 9 (10 if worked)
Mirror 7 (8)
Condenser 5 (6)

SO (important):
Working a square DOES NOT increase by 1, it REALLY doubles its TF points. Only, the doubling occurs BEFORE the extra points for the Adv triad get added.
And indeed apart those extras, each present item counts 1, regardless (remember tho, sensors and bunkers cause no ED. What about airbases?)
Example: if a square has farm+solar+road, its TFED points are 3. If you work it, it doesn't count as 4, it will count as 6.

I'll have to test:
Does a Mag Tube count as ONE item, or as 2 (road+Mag)?
same for Enricher, 1 item, or 2 (farm+Enricher)?
Offhand I'd say that the second item substitutes his prereq, and you have to count what's *present* in the tile, thus Mags & Enrichers do NOT add ED over the one already there for the road and farm. Just need to verify it.


GoodFacs -
They don't indeed *directly* affect the TFED term.
But they affect the Mineral Production term.
And this is composed using the "remainder of 16+# bonus".
So GoodFacs affect the contribution of that remainder.
And that remainder is calculated starting from TFED.
See the comparison I presented to clarify my correction to Blake's formula.


The main thing here is that they also affect Atrocities, contrary to the formula.
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