FAM's Office: 1360 AD

Shiber · February 6, 2003, 10:30

We have recently invented Combustion, which allows for destroyers and transports to be built. India is willing to pay an amazing amount of 492 gold and 263 gpt for Combustion - a total of 5,752 gold.
The problem is as follows: Combustion is a brand new tech. India is willing to pay the price (and what a price it is) to get it, but should we sell it?
Indian tech money can do wonders for our research programs and to the cash flow that goes to rushing city improvements. For example, 5,752 gold equals to 1438 shields: enough to rush almost 9 hospitals or police stations with only one shield built, or 12 destroyers, or ~7.2 battleships. Our current income is 1,062 gold per turn, and if we take this deal, it will inrease by almost 25%.
I fear that if we wait until this tech becomes older, India will already finish researching it themselves. In fact, they may already be working on it right now for all we know.
So, it comes down to this: should we sell India the tech necessary for producing destroyers, in exchange for money that equlas, for instance, the costs of rushing 12 destroyers of our own?

Now, on to the turn-by-turn orders.

Turn 0 (1360 AD, beginning of turnchat)
- Sell to Zululand Electronics for 37 gpt and 81 gold.
- Sell to Russia Scientific Method (pfff...) for 31 gold and 16 gpt.
- Sell Combustion to India for 492 gold and 263 gpt.

No treaties end during the next 5 turns period. No Scheduled events, other than the war with Persia.

General Orders
No signing of any Rights of Passage agreements or Mutual Protection Pacts.
The war with Japan continues, unless SMC Meshelic wishes to end it for military reasons alone. We're not suffering from any war weariness, we're not pressed on troops and our policy is not dictated by any international treaties, so I see no reason why not to continue it.
The President or SMC may declare war on Persia at their discreiton (they have my approval), if they manage to pass a bill enabling such an action. Be sure to declare war before our units invade their territory, otherwise we take a reputation hit.
Aro, remember to stick your tongue out at the screen when you declare war on Persia.

Any questions?

Kloreep · February 6, 2003, 17:33

Is that all the money India has, or is that just all they're willing to pay for Combustion alone? If the latter, I think we should sell; if the former, I think it should be done as soon as India will pay less than their coffers & income.

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 08:14

It's what they're willing to pay. If you raise the sum by just a little, the advisor says that we're getting close to a deal, not that they would never accept this deal.

Aggie · February 7, 2003, 10:56

Usually if you get close to a deal it means they have money left over, so it seems to be the latter.
Aggie

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 11:33

...whereas, when they say they'd accept the deal, and when you raise the price by one gpt they suddenly say that they will never take it, you can bet that they ran out of income and cannot pay as much gpt.

So anyway, we're conducting this deal (updated orders to reflect that).

Thud · February 7, 2003, 15:28

Good, I like it. No need to be selfish with our scientific genius.

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 15:32

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 16:17

Please sign the peace treaty with Japan before signing such a large GPT deal with India.

Also, with that much of an active GPT deal with India, perhaps we should just let the Greeks finish Persia off without becoming involved.

(If we sign such a large GPT deal with India, Gaudi may be willing to pay either Japan or Persia some money for the privilege of welching on their debt to us.)

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 16:45

Every sale that involves gpt involves some risk, but we can't let gpt deals shape our policy. Besides, the Indians are known to be peace-loving people (aggression level of 1, bare minimum), though should they stab us in the back with a knife, we'll stab them back with the turret of a tank and take back whatever gpt they have stolen from us in the peace negotiations.

Anyway, we can't sign a peace treaty with Japan because they won't agree to see our envoy, and I can't issue the order to go to war with Persia because I don't have the senate's approval.

Btw, time to refresh your signature joncnunn (I'm referring to the last line).

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 17:03

I've changed the last line of my profile.
India would be just as difficult for us to punish as Zulu is.

Foruntenity, the AIs trade advisor never consults with their own foreign affirs minister, so the probability of their betrayal wouldn't increase if we sign a GPT.

I'm simply concerned that the cost of their betryal would greatly increase with us getting that much GPT income from them.

Perhaps we should wait a turn or two until Japan will talk to us so we can sign a peace treaty before signing the deal with India.

Yes, we would get somewhat less money, but India probably hasn't spent 1 beaker towards Combustion yet, and next turn we would be able to calculate how much money they are spending reseraching Combustion based on how much what they are willing to pay for it decreases.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
Every sale that involves gpt involves some risk, but we can't let gpt deals shape our policy. Besides, the Indians are known to be peace-loving people (aggression level of 1, bare minimum), though should they stab us in the back with a knife, we'll stab them back with the turret of a tank and take back whatever gpt they have stolen from us in the peace negotiations.

Anyway, we can't sign a peace treaty with Japan because they won't agree to see our envoy, and I can't issue the order to go to war with Persia because I don't have the senate's approval.

Btw, time to refresh your signature joncnunn (I'm referring to the last line).

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 17:28

India, if it betrays, would see their coastal cities become target practice for our shiny new battleships.
On the matter of Japan, we have been in war with them for over 10 turns if I'm not mistaken and they still won't see our envoy. I'm afraid that we'd have to bombard one of their cities before they'd be willing to talk.

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
Foruntenity, the AIs trade advisor never consults with their own foreign affirs minister, so the probability of their betrayal wouldn't increase if we sign a GPT.

Good observation.

badman · February 7, 2003, 18:17

in my games, I'm more likely to accept a deal like this, if the other civ is willing to give me all the money it has because i can signifcantly slow down its research this way.
i also never take cash but only gpt deals

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 18:23

India wouldn't be completely broke by the deal. One more gold is "Close to a Deal" instead of "Never accept".

Receiving payment as Gold (or other tech) is much prefered to receiving GPT. Let's face it, civs & AIs will sometimes reneg on deals. For the same reason it's better to pay for items with GPT than up front gold. Dumb AI doesn't consider the value of how much GPT it's making (or paying for that matter) when deciding about war, so when you pay in GPT there's a chance that the AI will free you from your debt early (and honorably.)

Quote:

Originally posted by badman
in my games, I'm more likely to accept a deal like this, if the other civ is willing to give me all the money it has because i can signifcantly slow down its research this way.
i also never take cash but only gpt deals

Shiber · February 7, 2003, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
...so when you pay in GPT there's a chance that the AI will free you from your debt early (and honorably.)

Unfortunately, since the game is so retarded, you'd take a rep hit anyway.
That's what I hate the most about Civ 3 - some dimwitted AI declares war on you and breaks a dozen deals, and suddenly everyone gossips about how you betrayed them. "Oh, or was I supposed to continue the RoP and GPT deals AFTER they declared war on me?"

Oh, I'm sorry for being like that, I'm just really annoyed right now... I just finished watching 'Signs' with Mel Gibson on DVD. Stupid waste of two hours... "Oh, another dramatic pause? Good, we haven't had one for like, two minutes."
I just can't wait until I get my hands on the movie soundtrack.

'Donnie Darko', on the other hand...

Panag · February 8, 2003, 01:07

hi ,

, cant we get more for combustion or electronics , .....

and should we sell each tech we get at ones , would it not be a wise call to wait a bit first , ....

have a nice day

Shiber · February 8, 2003, 07:21

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

, cant we get more for combustion or electronics , .....

No, this is the highest price offer they'd accept. Read the previous posts before you post.

Quote:

and should we sell each tech we get at ones , would it not be a wise call to wait a bit first , ....

And let them research Combustion themselves? No, I don't think that would be wise.

Panag · February 9, 2003, 10:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber

No, this is the highest price offer they'd accept. Read the previous posts before you post.

And let them research Combustion themselves? No, I don't think that would be wise.

hi ,

the whole thread was read , and the conclusion still is ; is there no way to get more from it , .....

maybe if we wait a couple turns , ....

have a nice day

Shiber · February 9, 2003, 12:26

The question "cant we get more for combustion" was clearly addressed by Kloreep in the second post of this thread, and answered by me in the third post.

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
is there no way to get more from it , .....

It is my job as the FAM to make every possible effort to ensure that we conduct the best, most optimal deals possible. This is my job Panag, to get as much as possible from every deal, and I keep that in mind every time I compile my orders.
If you happen to review the save and find a better deal, you are welcome to post it, and I promise that I will review your proposal and accept it over mine if I find that it is better.

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
maybe if we wait a couple turns , ....

The deals were already conducted. Besides, I already explained that there's no point in waiting because India will just research any tech that we don't sell to them by themselves (though somewhat slower), and we'd lose profit.

BigFurryMonster · February 10, 2003, 10:42

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
(If we sign such a large GPT deal with India, Gaudi may be willing to pay either Japan or Persia some money for the privilege of welching on their debt to us.)

Antonio Gaudi? What has he got to do with things?

Shiber · February 10, 2003, 11:50

realpolitic · February 11, 2003, 17:29

Let 'em do the research themselves. since 4 gold=> 1 shield. rushbuilds should be used sparingly. Yes 1 civ might be able to sell several techs, but that just gives us a target

It's better to have 1 competitor than 5. Worst case is if they're far away, we'll have to hire several civs to help keep them in their place.

Techwhoring should be used to get to: 0% tax, upgrades, build a handful of courthouses and when reinvading an enemy, marketplaces in occupied cities.